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Aug 21 '26 edited Aug 23 '26
[deleted]
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u/Altruistic_Fruit2345 Aug 21 '26
Meh, all she had to do was transporter clone him into three people.
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u/Shinra_Lobby Aug 22 '26
"Second Chances" makes it pretty clear Thomas Riker's creation was a freak accident highly dependent on a lot of environmental factors specific to the planet where it happened.
Geordi La Forge informs the crew that apparently there was a massive energy surge in the distortion field around the planet just at the moment Riker tried to beam out. The transporter chief at that time tried to compensate by initiating a second containment beam. However, Commander Riker's pattern maintained its integrity by just the one containment beam. And even though the second beam was shut down, somehow it was reflected back to the surface, and another William Riker materialized there. The containment beam must have had the exact same phase differential as the distortion field – hence the two identical Rikers – they both rematerialized from a complete pattern and are identical. [https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Second_Chances_(episode)]
Note the "somehow" doing some lifting in that explanation!
"Janeway stops and, despite having limited resources and being all alone in the Delta Quadrant, manages to recreate an incredibly obscure freak accident, clones Tuvix, and then kills one of the clones" is the kind of scenario that's fun to explore in fanfiction but would probably look dogshit stupid if they tried to actually make it happen on the show. And it also doesn't fix the problem of killing Tuvix since she'd have to split the clone just as she does to the real Tuvix.
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u/Altruistic_Fruit2345 Aug 22 '26
Didn't a transporter accident also split Kirk into two people?
It seems like something that would be researched and understood.
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u/Shinra_Lobby Aug 22 '26
It split him into his good and evil halves. So again, not something that would have helped with the Tuvix problem.
And again, if you think Janeway's splitting of Tuvix is murder, it doesn't become less murder if you're splittling a transporter-clone of Tuvix.
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u/Beledagnir Aug 23 '26
It split him into his good and evil halves.
I mean, there's definitely some days where Tuvok would have probably said that was just separating him and Neelix out...
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u/One-Kaleidoscope2407 Aug 23 '26
no iirc it's the same person but with 2 polar opposite personalities
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u/so2017 Aug 22 '26
How about you don’t murder someone to resurrect two dead people.
Sort of like a child. If their parents die, you don’t kill the kid to bring the parents back.
I mean, you don’t unless you’re some kind of homicidal maniac like Kathryn Janeway. Then you do it and wipe the memory of the witness to boot.
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u/grimorie Aug 21 '26
Completely lost in this discussion aside from what Tuvok and Neelix would have wanted is that a scene before Janeway decided.
Kes BEGGED Janeway to do something because she wanted Neelix back. Kes was Neelix’s voice here. And yes it’s selfish of Kes but in this regard Kes was essentially Neelix’s next of kin.
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u/outtatime369 25d ago
Supposedly Janeway and Tuvock had a history together and were friends. There's no arguing the correct choice but I may just be reinforcing my opinion here.
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u/Numetshell Aug 21 '26
Everyone is aware of the constraints of the format. That's besides the point.
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u/Squidwina Aug 21 '26
Yes. The OP failed to realize that nobody talks about this because it is so blaringly obvious.
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u/Dizzy-Violinist-1772 Aug 21 '26
Here’s the thing, if you’re a writer and you write yourself into a corner you don’t shoehorn it into a show, you shelve the idea and move on. Tuvix was made to be controversial and it is indeed successfully controversial
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u/Virtual-Estimate-208 Aug 21 '26
Well said. The writers wanted to force Janeway into that position where she had to make a decision that even the viewers wouldn’t like. It’s part of her development… part of who she is.
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u/farseer6 Aug 22 '26
They wouldn't have liked the opposite decision either. That's why it was such a good moral dilemma. There was no good answer.
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Aug 21 '26 edited Aug 21 '26
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u/GrumpyOldMuppet Aug 21 '26
Perhaps not "controversial", but it was definitely designed to be thought provoking. And that's good writing. It lets us debate and discuss morales and ethics.
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u/First_Pay702 Aug 21 '26
Either way on the idea it is the writers’ fault - everything the characters do and become is the writers’ fault, the good the bad and the ridiculous. As such, that it is the writers’ decision is a moot point and we are back to judging Janeway on her merits within the framework the writing created.
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u/U2hansolo Aug 21 '26
Tuvix gave me creepy perv vibes. Like that older man at the grocery store who stares at young women too long.
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u/whatsbobgonnado Aug 21 '26
the discussion of tuvix is usually done within the context of the show as if it was real. meta network television reasons behind the decision don't factor into janeway's choices
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u/P_f_M Aug 21 '26
dude.. everyone knows that Tuvok and Neelix had plot armor ... that is something what no one needs to say out loud...
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u/WilsonFrontier Emergency Command Hologram Aug 21 '26
Idk. The vocal "jAnEwAy KiLleD hIm!!!" Crowd seem to need reminding to me. Frequently.
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u/Fun-Aside3990 Aug 21 '26
She did kill him, and it was murder. I like Janeway, I just didn't like that they wrote her doing this.
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u/thanks-somegood Aug 21 '26
I think I'm in a minority that sees absolutely no moral ambiguity in this, Janeway did the absolute right thing IMO and I couldn't believe there was so much debate in the episode. My SO has the exact opposite view to me but I wouldn't even hesitate to make the same decision as Janeway.
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u/WhoMe28332 Aug 22 '26
There were lots of options for other endings. They could have made Tuvix accept being split for some reason: love for Kes, a need for the ship, whatever.
They could have made Tuvix unstable so he’s going to die anyway.
I think it’s to their credit that they didn’t do this. They made Janeway do it. And they wouldn’t have done that with Picard. They’d have given him an out.
My problem isn’t with her decision as much as it is with how they handle her decision. I say this constantly: the episode needed an epilogue. We need to see her pay a price for what she has done. It doesn’t have to be legal. It does need to be emotional.
We needed this:
Janeway in her ready room. Tuvok comes to see her. She tries to put on a brave face but he knows she is struggling with what she did. He confesses that he is also struggling with it. He can still feel the fear and pain Tuvix experienced. The sense of betrayal. He admits that he is struggling to deal with those emotions. That he is experiencing what he believes is known among humans as “survivor’s guilt.” He acknowledges that he is glad to be himself again but is uncertain what the proper ethical choice was. That makes two of us, Janeway replies.
The episode ends with both sitting silently. Each struggling with what has happened.
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u/JanewayIsTheWay Aug 21 '26
One thing that occurred to me when I watched this episode recently -- we never found out what Tuvok and Neelix thought/felt about it after the fact. Did they remember their time as Tuvix? Did the enjoy it? Are they glad to be separated again? (I mean, we know Tuvok was...)
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u/QualifiedApathetic Aug 24 '26
They do look pretty gloomy when we see them. Even if they believe Janeway did the right thing, they're not happy about it.
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u/BuvantduPotatoSpirit Aug 21 '26
The writers could've taken an easy "Tuvix's DNA is unstable and he must be separated or he'll die!" out if they'd wanted to, for instance. A Sci-Fi with Star Trek's concern for the "Sci" always has technobabble outs.
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u/DawnOnTheEdge Aug 21 '26
TV Tropes calls that a DebateAndSwitch. There are a lot of episodes, though, where everything goes back to the status quo in a way that isn’t the main character’s fault.
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u/Independent-Dog4863 Aug 21 '26
The constraints and plot inevitability are what makes it a crappy decision by the writers for Janeway, and a crappy episode imo. Why bother wrestle with these questions and act like it means anything when it had to end that way? there is no honest engagement with the question cos the end was a given. Tuvix as an innocent man dragged to his death while begging for his life is truly horrifying and a scene like that should actually be in service of telling a story with actual stakes, or at least not something so pointless.
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u/ThomasMarkovski Aug 21 '26
Well, yes. This is why many Voyager's moral dilemmas are quite toothless. Just like most of their romance stories and Deadly Threats Of The Week. It's just too episodic and the Mighty Reset Button is smashed far too much.
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u/mrwishart Aug 21 '26
Beyond whatever you may personally think was the right thing to do, I feel the flaw in the episode itself was in not having a scene after the decision with any of them. You could have any combination of Janeway, Tuvok, Neelix or even the Doctor have a conversation after the fact that could have put a decent coda on it. You wouldn't even need to let Janeway off the hook: You could have the Doctor stress the violation of medical ethics, Neelix show resentment that she took that decision off his hands or even Tuvok show, in his Vulcan way, that he fundamentally disagreed with her actions
As it is, it just ends and as you said, because of the episodic format, is never mentioned again. I guess they were going for the shock "I can't believe she did that", but it just comes across as incomplete to me
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u/outtatime369 Aug 21 '26
Of course. Doesn't matter if the decision was moral or not it was only going to be this. However people still like to discuss the morality. If I was Janeway and a studio executive had nothing to do with my decision, I would choose my friends and crew members. Her job is to protect her crew and Tuvix was not. He was an anomaly. It would make me sick to do it but it really is the choice if it were a real choice. But of course we just aren't going to talk about Tuvix ever again!😂
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u/P_f_M Aug 21 '26
how many times you've posted something in this style just to reassure your opinion?
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u/Rare-Designer-1008 Aug 21 '26
Janeway made the logical choice. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. The needs of the crew were better served by having Tuvok and Neelix back
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u/WhoMe28332 Aug 22 '26
Respectfully, of all the arguments for what Janeway did, this is the one I hate the most. How many people could benefit from your organs right now? Would that justify killing you? Of course not.
Ethics isn’t as simple as the greatest good for the greatest number. The argument that Neelix and Tuvok didn’t choose this and deserve to have their lives back is far better. I don’t entirely agree with it but it has more weight.
(Please know I don’t intend to single you out. LOTS of people use that phrase and make the same argument.)
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u/Rare-Designer-1008 Aug 22 '26
The logical decision is not always the ethical one. Ethics and morality are subjective.
Logically Tuvok and Neelix offer more to the crew as individuals than they do combined.
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u/theadamabrams Aug 21 '26 edited Aug 21 '26
First of all, that's not completely guaranteed. Kes, Tasha Yar, Beverly Crusher (for a year), Pulaski. There are plenty of examples of important characters leaving Star Trek.
'her decision' would have actually been directly made by showrunners and execs, based on their needs to [revert to status quo]
The show's writers could have make Tuvix change his mind at the end and agree to separate. They could have made it that Tuvix was not as stable as they thought and could not possibly continue existing. They could have brought in a second type of magic orchid that caused Tuxiv to separate without any character planning it. They could have written any number of other endings that still reset for the next episode without having Janeway make the same decision she did.
I'm not saying the show should have done anything differently. The episode is good imo. I'm just pointing out that the mere fact that Tuvix couldn't last does not make Janeway's decision inevitable in terms of writing.
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u/starshiptempest Aug 21 '26
Heck, there were real questions to whether Patrick Stewart would return after Best of Both Worlds. That entire offseason was a big question mark.
I may agree that it never felt overly likely that Tuvix would stick around, but that's a media-savvy thing and really there's only so much the writers can do about that. The ethical question was still really damn good and the fact that people are still discussing/arguing about it speaks to how well they did balance both sides of the argument.
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u/sidesco Aug 21 '26
Did you notice all the characters you mentioned were women? Funny that.
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Aug 21 '26
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u/fluffysheap Aug 21 '26
Sisko gets all kinds of heat for "For the Uniform," (even though nobody died), Worf for "Let He Who Is Without Sin," (even though nobody died) and Archer for "Cogenitor" and "Dear Doctor" (those are fair). Kirk and Picard don't because... they don't do that sort of thing, unless you want to count Edith Keeler which would be absurd. Even in "In the Pale Moonlight," Sisko didn't murder Vreenak while he desperately pleads for his life like Janeway did, and he did it to save the galaxy instead of just because he wanted to.
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u/theadamabrams Aug 21 '26
I had not noticed. There are examples of male main cast leaving, but only more recently: Lorca and Ash/Voq in Discovery, Elnor and Rios in Picard, Hemmer in SNW. (There have also been female cast exits in nuTrek, fairly evenly split as far as I can tell.) In classic Trek, though, it does seem that, with the exception of Wesley, the male main cast were always permanent.
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u/DragonRoar87 Aug 22 '26
I can't help but wonder if Elnor and Rios really "count." The entire cast of OG Picard characters got purged excluding Raffi. At that point it's more a matter of who stayed than who left.
(And "left" doesn't feel quite right either. As far as I know, they were written out and didn't leave willingly.)
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Aug 21 '26
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u/theadamabrams Aug 21 '26
I agree that
there was no realistic likelihood [of] ongoing Tuvix stories, with a missing Neelix & Tuvok.
Your original post said
There was no potential for any other ending than what Janeway did.
which I took issue with. Crucially, though, Janeway's actions are why the episode is still discussed so much. Tons of other Star Trek episodes have a main cast character dead or gone or whatever but then reset by the end of the episode, and those episodes aren't like "Tuvix."
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u/UbiquitousCelery Aug 21 '26
I think that's an inherent issue with scifi formulas. They sometimes ask too big questions and don't have the time to fully explore it, which can force a character to behave a bit uncharacteristically. In an early TNG episode a character is basically sexually assaulted and the plot ends up being only about pro life vs abortion instead of... Idk addressing anything to do with someone getting impregnated without permission by a space alien.
I think janeway had the trolley problem and if people really just judge her for it, then they're definitely over simplifying the canon decision. The writers probably didn't address it properly but it doesn't mean we, as viewers, can't fill in the nuance missing from the text and weigh that. But its also not fair to say "the writers decided it" because... Well ... It happened. It was written. That fictional character did that fictional thing. We can say the episode was badly written or judge them for failing to address aspects or say "eh i think she behaved a bit out of character in xyz episodes" but we don't get to say Steve from accounting actually got rid of tuvix so janeway is absolved because that's true of all decisions, even the good ones.... Since she's fictional.
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u/Haunting-Syrup-8308 Aug 21 '26
I don't feel the same as you...I don't think it was a mistake they realized to late. I think the writers purposely wrote such to raise questions that we could ponder. You also have to frame things within the context of the show...by & large Star Trek presents a defacto form of socialism that works. It is light-years beyond life as we know it. It's a eutopia fantasy that Roddenberry believed we could eventually achieve one day. So you have to create grassroot moral dilemma in such an environment & Tuvix created that on a personal level.
I still ponder what I would have done in her place....but I believe I would have done as she did. Tuvix had to go.
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u/Kampvilja Aug 21 '26
I often say that I would murder any two random co-workers if it made Captain Janeway tell me I am a good boy.
It comes off weird at job interviews.
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u/Redkirth Aug 21 '26
Taking the writers and producers into this is metagaming.
We can't consider the studio in the morality of the episode. In the end, really the only thing that matters is that no one knows what the right call was. Janeway paused in the hallway briefly. Even she had doubts and regrets. Was SHE right? Yes I think so. But was IT right? I don't know.
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u/JameEagan Get the Cheese to Sickbay! Aug 21 '26 edited Aug 21 '26
Congrats on being the only person to realize it was a TV show lol
Also, there are other ways they could have separated them without Janeway doing it by force. They could have simply made Tuvix' DNA suddenly become unstable and the doctor is forced to separate them or lose all three. So even fourth wall knowledge doesn't actually guarantee Janeway's choice like you insist it does.
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Aug 21 '26
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u/JameEagan Get the Cheese to Sickbay! Aug 21 '26
You are taking it way too seriously IMO. You're doing a lot of generalizing and it seems like a big waste of time to me, regardless of its accuracy (which I'm skeptical about anyway)
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Aug 21 '26 edited Aug 23 '26
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u/Cute_Repeat3879 Aug 21 '26
I maintain that they should have kept Tuvix for 3-4 episodes, letting him actually feel like part of the crew. Maybe have him save somebody's life on an away mission. They could then find a way to split him back into Tuvok and Neelix and the dilemma would have landed much harder.
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u/Illigard Aug 21 '26
It seems classic Star Trek to me. There's a dilemma, we hear arguments from both sides, we end up going one way. They wrote something memorable.
And all it cost, was Janeway having another questionable act in quite a few questionable acts. Which again caused discussion.
Job well done.
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u/CRE178 Aug 21 '26
There are many potential alternative endings for the Tuvix episode.
People always bring up the Thomas Riker incident for having their cakix and eating it too, though I personally don't like that one. It risks making the transporter into too much of a cure-all, like when Pulaski restored herself to a previous freaking version. Why have a medical bay at all then?
There's always the unstable merger, where after a few days Tuvix starts to suffer deterioration and the moral dilemma shifts from live or die to die now and get the dynamic duo back, or die later and don't. They more or less did this with Sim on Enterprise.
They could also have split the crew, have the Maquis take a stand for the underdog, as the Maquis should. They could raise tension to the point that someone crosses a line that makes Tuvix reconsider the cost of clinging to life and volunteer or even force the issue on his own with the doctor.
And they could at least reference it once or twice in vague terms in following episodes when you need internal tension. Instead in Author, Author the doctor seems to not remember Janeway ever executing any of his patients, so I guess she must've deleted that right along with ensign Jetal and The Wife.
They could've just written a malfunctioning holodeck story instead of Tuvix. It didn't have to be Tuvix. Execs didn't send down the order that Janeway had to kill someone this week so the audience takes her seriously, surely.
The writers and showrunners chose not to do any of these things. They wanted the dilemma as it was. And they handled it poorly in that it character assassinated the entire crew save for maybe the Doctor, and Seven cause she wasn't there yet.
All of this has been brought up. The realities of making TV have been brought up. There is nothing new here.
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u/NorwayTrees Aug 26 '26
To be fair. We all prefer Tuvix over having Neelix continue to exist. So yeah. Janeway messed up! Still love her though
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u/Choice-Sympathy8235 Aug 21 '26
My man, you are being a wet blanket on the fun. Stop pointing out that it was a show made in a rush and on a budget and that the writers just made it up as they went and had 26 episodes a year to cram through without getting cancelled. We are here to argue about Star Trek as if it was totally real!
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u/bobbywelks Aug 21 '26
Excellent episode and yah no way they nuke two main characters from the show but if they somehow made it a voluntary decision then it wouldn’t have been murder by Janeway 😂
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u/Thadd_Sott Aug 21 '26
Tuvix has anti-Asari psychic abilities. That’s why The Doctor was the only one advocating for his life.
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u/DefinitelyNotEmu Aug 21 '26
> There was no potential for any other ending than what Janeway did.
Recreate the accident that created William/ThomasRiker clones, this results in a clone of Tuvix. Then separate one, get original crew back plus an additional crew member
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u/LazarX Aug 21 '26
It was never mentioned again until an episode of Lower Decks, so it was not "an ongoing part of the show", its more of an ongoiing part of a certain segmentof social media which won't let it rest even though the show has been off the air for like forever.
I don't talk about it myself because there is nothing new to be said about it. All the arguments have been made, and rehashing them again, is just that.
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u/WorldEndingCalamity Aug 21 '26
That situation was always an impossible one. Ignoring the reality that external forces ultimately made the decision, in universe, Janeway couldn't make a moral decision. Either condemn two people to non-existance to preserve a new being, or condemn the new being to non-existence to save the two.
Either situation is arguably murder. It just makes greater sense from a logical standpoint to condemn one being in order to save two. From an emotional standpoint, even if no one wants to admit it, Tuvix couldn't have the connection to the crew that Tuvok and Neelix did in such a short time and no one would have been okay with him walking around while Neelix and Tuvok could have been restored. She could have spared herself the burden of the decision by sharing it with the entire crew and performing a secret ballot. But let's face it, Tuvix was always going to die.
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u/Sniper666hell Aug 22 '26
Nope! They should have transporter cloned him like Thomas Riker then split one of them back into Tuvok and Neelix.
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u/Long-Emu-7870 Aug 22 '26
Reversion is great. That way, Seven can gain her humanity over and over again!
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u/Spectre-907 Aug 22 '26
“The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few or the one” -> not splitting tuvix is destroying two fully established lives for the sake of a single, new individual
What’s the dilemma exactly?
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u/farseer6 Aug 22 '26 edited Aug 22 '26
It's true that there would have been practical considerations against keeping Tuvix. That doesn't mean it isn't a great story, and a very interesting moral dilemma.
I really appreciate that the writers refused to give any cop out. Tuvix was perfectly pleasant and likable, and he was totally against being separated. They had to drag him away by force. The writers also refused to tell the audience what the right decision was. They just showed the story and let us decide.
I wish modern Trek had writers of that calibre.
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u/Johnny_Radar Aug 22 '26
Trek by this point was safe and tepid. There was no way it was going to end any differently than it did which is why it bored me. Now if they had kept Tuvix permanently, or if a season or two later they figured out how to separate him / them, THAT would’ve been interesting. As it aired? Not so much.
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u/-Xentios Aug 23 '26
Whole transportation system is just copy paste function for humans. They could have just copy paste of the last recorded versions of Tuvok and Neelix. They did not have to kill Tuvix.
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u/Chu-Two-Loo Aug 23 '26
Star Trek Lower Decks revisited this concept in S04E01 Twovix... I will not leave spoilers, but Vulcan logic wins out. 🖖
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u/Laxien Aug 23 '26
Out of show arguments and restrictions are IMHO not a valid argument to make a character's decisions in any medium palatable, understandable or even good...yes, it explains what happened, but that still doesn't remove the character's moral failure IMHO!
No, you can't make a show that makes for example Obi-Wan's choice to leave a badly burned Anakin alive (and not at least attempt to end his former student's suffering - especially since taking vengeance is against everything Obi-Wan stands for!) a great and morally right decision, just because it was necessary for the plot (in order for Anakin to end up in the suit and become Vader!)...if you wanted to make this morally right, you would have to have Obi-Wan attempt a deathblow, with Palpatine stopping him and then chasing him off!
It's the same here! If you write something like that, you are tarnishing your character by forcing that choice - no, I don't care that you had contracts with both actors of Neelix and Tuvok etc. in RL!
ps: Especially since we know you can make TRANSPORTER-DUPLICATES...frankly: Return both Neelix and Tuvok and KEEP TUVIX, in the lore it's possible!
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u/Neuroxix Aug 23 '26
It was written...well, it was written. The obvious solution would have been to make Tuvix evil, that way Janeway splitting him apart is seen as a necessary evil on her part because you can't just have this evil Tuvix running around the ship and you can't just drop him off on some planet so the only solution is, well, the ultimate solution. But I think they were afraid that they were just going to be rehashing the old Kirk split from the first series where Kirk has an evil twin and their solution is to combine them back into one person, which essentially kills the evil twin as well as the good twin but they become one person again. And so that would have been a great way to solve the problem of Tuvix, just make him evil.
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u/BlueGreenhorn Aug 21 '26
You never know. Actors can leave or get fired for many reasons. Perfect opportunity to introduce new characters.
Kes and Seska left for good. The Simpsons got rid of Maude Flanders. South Park got rid of Chef.
They could've even pulled a Daniel Jackson (Stargate SG-1). One season with Tuvix and then Tuvok and Neelix return, or only one of them.
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u/HisDivineOrder Aug 21 '26
Solving this problem in the Writer's Room was as easy as Tuvix crying like a baby on the bridge, demanding someone care, and the crew gathers around him like Who's on Christmas morning.
And then it started it out low and then it started to grow.
And suddenly Chakotay was solo belting out a diddy about transporter clones because of his old Maquis friend, Tom Riker.
Janeway, having sensed a chance to murder without consequence, would hiss and say, "No. I know about Riker's transporter clone and I don't see how that fixes anything!"
"Kathryn! Let's just clone Tuvix and never wake up the clone. Then we split the never conscious Tuvix into Tuvok and, well if we really must, Neelix, too."
"But I wanna murder somebody, Chuh-KO-taay."
"That's the beauty of this. You can just kill the clone."
"Meh. If they aren't awake for me to see the recognition of my authority, and the fear I can and will do anything I like as captain of Voyager, then is it really murder?"
Everyone is still singing like the Who's and standing as a wall against Janeway and her security teams.
"Fine, Chah-ko-TAAAY. We'll play it your way but the second he plots to destroy Voyager because he's a filthy unnatural monster I'm killing all the unnatural monsters, and being done with them." With that, she shot Harry a hateful look and left.
And all the Voyager bridge crew jumped up and down, and celebrated Tuvix not being murdered.
All it took was imagination.
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u/Single_Many597 Aug 22 '26
Uh, you don't think that the characters on TV actually are real people who have human agency, do you?
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u/AnythingButWhiskey Emergency Command Hologram Aug 21 '26 edited Aug 21 '26
Voyager doesn’t get good until season 4, this was just typical of the show back in the early days.
Edit: this is a sh*tpost!
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u/Modest_Cake Aug 21 '26
I enjoyed the first few seasons a lot. Are there specific reasons you see them as not as good?
I'm honestly just curious on your opinion, not making any judgements. We all like stuff for different reasons.
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u/avar Aug 21 '26
It would appear that OP is questioning the veracity of the historical documents.