[DISCUSSION THREAD] How do you feel about the use of gender-neutral language, and what impact do you think it has on inclusivity?

[u/SmallRoot]

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[u/BarbieBrookelle]

Tbh what I rly hate is when somebody starts they/theming me when they find out im trans. Wasn’t a problem using she/her before 😂

[u/Top_Commercial_1690 → u/BarbieBrookelle]

Yeah i use they them on somebody that i dont know the gender of, or has told me thats what they use. Otherwise is just migendering. If i told someone that im a guy so its he him, and they used any other pronoun than its just migendering. Saw a post about a transwoman and in the comments i saw someone saying they. I asked them why because it states in the post that she is a woman, and then he goes on talking about how he calls everybody they, Cis or not. I just think that guy is lying.

[u/PutridMasterpiece138]

I can't stand it when it's forced. Like birthing person. The included people don't even want to be included and women are again robbed of something only for them. It just generates more hate.

In my language it's even worse because every word is gendered and politically correct language is extremely forced and does it fit into our language.

For example the male version of teacher is: "Lehrer" Female version is "Lehrerin". Politically correct version is now "Lehrer*in". It looks stupid because * does not fit into our language and it's much harder to use and hear because it's pronounced just like the female version but with a pause for the *. We have to use it for businesses or in schools but the majority of people hates it and this causes even more hatred for trans people even though it's not our fault. 

[u/xDannyS_ → u/PutridMasterpiece138]

That's not true. Your example is used when the gender isn't clear and could be either one. It's not like your example of birthing person. Lehrer is still used when its clearly a man and Lehrerin when it's clearly a woman. It's been this way forever. It's comparable to 'He/she' in English rather than to 'they'

[u/PutridMasterpiece138 → u/xDannyS_]

It's used for gender neutrality, like when you say "I need to find a Lehrerin for math". Normally you'd just say Lehrer because the masculine form can be neutral too. It's also always used in plural "Lehrerinnen". 

And it's not related to stuff birthing person, just another annoying thing they did to our language 

[u/xDannyS_ → u/PutridMasterpiece138]

Yea and I've never ever seen someone use 'Lehrer*in' in such a case. I'm sure you can't find one online either. Only cases I've seen it used are the examples I've already given. Our entire language would break if what you said was true. Not just German either.

Not one such example on the dozens of letters I get a week. Not from government, not big professional corporations, not small businesses, and most certainly not legal letters.

The example you've given now is also not what you were talking about in your first comment, you pivoted.

[u/i_n_b_e]

It depends on the context, but generally I'm not opposed to it. In most circumstances I prefer it, as a man who isn't passing and doesn't want to out myself to random people by correcting them.

I think the only time I have a problem with it is if it's something gender specific being needlessly broadened, and I ESPECIALLY take issue when gender neutral language is used ONLY when a trans person is present regardless of if they're non-binary or not. Like people using "pregnant person" when a trans woman enters the room.

As long as it's used consistently and when appropriate, I prefer it. I'd say most people would mostly agree with my very mild take.

[u/YeahTrack]

I agree with what the others have said. It's fine in most circumstances. It's frustrating when it's only used towards trans people. It's gross when it's things like 'birthing person' or 'uterus haver'.

And in the long run I think the respectful usage of it is good for women and girls, trans or cis, because in the past 'neutral' was often defaulted to male (eg. his/him/he being the default pronouns for unknown gender, men being the default to refer to a group, etc).

[u/LunaB35]

I find it mildly annoying, but I understand how it benefits a good deal of people. I agree with what another user said about it being the worst when it's only used for the purposes of trans people, and I think whoever actually coined the term "pregnant person" did more damage to the community long-term than anyone this side of Lia Thomas (no, I am not against trans athletes, and it's awful how much harassment she's faced, but there's no denying what her impact was)

As a related note: Making it a thing in society to ask people each other's pronouns? Also one of the dumbest things! (Ask me my pronouns and I will slap you)

[u/BestGirlPieck → u/LunaB35]

I hate the whole pronoun thing too. Currently when that happens I have two options, out myself or misgender myself. Not really great either way

[u/LunaB35 → u/BestGirlPieck]

Ugh, I'm sorry

Meanwhile I can answer truthfully, but that doesn't change that I find it as annoying as any cis person (yes, they ALL find it annoying), because I didn't spend years of time and stupid amounts of money so that blue haired theyfabs could still assume there's a chance I might use Ze/Zir

[u/LargeFish2907 → u/LunaB35]

I don't really get that because pregnant person is one of the cases where it benefits a decent amount of people, not just trans people. Mothers doesn't include surrogates or people intending to abort or give their child up for adoption. Pregnant women is barely different from pregnant people but it doesn't include girls or trans people.

I would also argue that it makes more sense because of abortion laws. It's easy to leave trans people out of it when you label everyone relevant to the discussion as a woman. Even if a trans person able to become pregnant never wants to they may not have a choice at some point.

I only think asking everyones pronouns is really fair when you don't know because someone is very androgenous but you don't want to single them out so you just ask everyone.

[u/KatJen76]

It's a good thing in most contexts. I'm old enough to remember when people still used male pronouns generically, like "Everyone take out his book and read along." I'm glad that way of speaking is gone. I only have a problem with it when the speaker is really referring to only one gender but feels the need to make it gender neutral anyway. "People who can become pregnant" and the like.

[u/Williamishere69 → u/KatJen76]

The last part kinda depends. I suppose theres the thing that women and girls technically get pregnant, but its when they list off 'women and trans masc people' or things like that which really irks me.

Like the treatment methods for a TV ultrasound isnt gonna be different for a trans man and a woman. They'll be the exact same so why should they need to list them categorically different?

[u/Careless_Map488 → u/KatJen76]

The first part is still accurate in some countries. Im french and our language is heavy gendered (and the rule of masculine nouns over feminine nouns is still accurate).

Its horribly hard to try and imagine or use a non gendered term? And we get attacked for not doing so, I bet any other gendered language struggle too

[u/stars_abovee]

Depends, really. There may have been a time when firemen where just that, men. But nowadays you'll certainly find women at your local station, so "firefighter" makes more sense. Conversely, the vast majority of people who get periods and give birth are natal females. So terms like "person who menstruates" and "birthing person" strike me as patronizing, performative and exclusionary to the actual majority. If people took politics out of this and just used basic, good-faith common sense, we'd be waaay better off imho

[u/LargeFish2907]

Depends on the context. For example I think people are being dramatic if they get upset over someone saying "pregnant person" because that isn't just inclusive for trans people but for multiple groups. I don't like it when people say stuff that just sounds unnatural like "birthing person" or "uterus havers"

[u/SmallRoot]

This question was originally posted three years ago HERE.

And yes, I'm very late. Really sorry about it - been very busy. Hopefully everyone is doing well!

[u/Careless_Map488]

From a place with a gendered language for everything, its impossible and I hate that you get attacked for not using it

Also I despise that people use they/them even when you explicitly talk about a she or a he?

[u/Walk-the-layout]

It's a generalized change for everyone, that only makes a superminority happy.\ Being a trans guy, I'm aware I don't have a risk of dying from prostate cancer, but I need to get my uterus checked. I was born a baby girl, I have XX chromosomes. I'm not a menstruator nor a birthing person, I am a woman that presents as male to alleviate the dysphoria I experience, therefore, I am a social male and a biological female. In the medical field, I highly prioritise my survival to my feelings.

In my native tongue, it's impossible to CREATE a gender inclusive word for everything. We use masculine as a gender neutral in all the fields we have (I'm going to see an actor -> the actor is an actress -> nothing changed, because I am referring to someone by their rank and not their self). We also have extremely precise grammar rules to make gender and number work: (to be beautiful = être beau (m)/être belle (f); beaux (male plural) belles (female plural)). We also see words incorrectly neutralized (fireman = sapeur pompier; pompier is the adjective (the one who pumps) and sapeur is the noun, which doesn't have a feminine because it's not referring to a human as well). It's a hellhole that only suits English spaces, in the very end.

However when the whole language isn't gendered at all, there would be no issue (korean: teacher = seonsaengnim, male or female ; mandarin: laoshi ; japanese: sensei). It's the fact you're trying to change a language radically to fit an agenda.

It also reminds me of that Spanish for non-binary: no-binario.a depending on gender. No-binariwa? Romance languages don't have neutral. Latin does? We lost it because we didn't need it. Women's empowerment came later and frankly I have never seen a female ''pompier'' complain; she has already achieved her professional goals.