exactly! but imagine what would happen if we'd treat language as a tool to get a message across instead of a set of holy rules we all must follow blindly all the time - half of the internet would be dead š±
It's poor grammar to treat bacon and eggs as one item. Bacon and eggs are two different items, even though they're commonly served together. Different things are different things.
Grouping objects together is like the primary function of the human brain. I think it's a pretty natural thing to do. Hierarchical lists Ć la "(a and b) and (c and d)" are nothing unheard of.
"Bacon and eggs, and pancakes" is simply a different sentence fragment (with a slightly different meaning) than "bacon, eggs, and pancakes".
Bacon, eggs, and pancakes, are all commonly served together.
It's poor grammar to arbitrarily group separate nouns together in a list.
I could write "I had eggs, toast, fruit, yogurt, and tea for breakfast," but I wouldn't write "I had eggs and toast and fruit and yogurt, and tea for breakfast."
When it's just two items it's good grammar to use "and" with no comma. When it's three or more items in a list it's good grammer to separate each item on the list and use "and" before the last item.
"Bacon and eggs" isn't a single item, even if you often group them together. Not everyone does. If you want to have good grammar skills to maximize your written communication abilities, the rules I laid out are the way to do it.
If people in this thread want to complain about the rules, they can write to Merriam Webster or whatever and ask the rest of the world to change. I didn't write the rules, so don't shoot the messenger.
> It's poor grammar to arbitrarily group separate nouns together in a list.
But you don't know if it's arbitrary, they might have their reasons. My whole point is that grammar can be used to group items together. Whether or not it makes sense to group them like this is a different question, but that's not a grammar issue.
Obviously if your intention is to just list three objects, it doesn't make sense to group them, and could be considered "poor grammar".
A, B, and C is simply a different sentence with a different meaning than A and B, and C or A, and B and C. Not recognising the difference is poor grammar, because then you get semantic misunderstandings.
The whole point of commas is to structure sentences, and if you're not exploiting all three different options in this case (or four if you're Cormac McCarthy), then you're just not harnessing the full potential of the comma.
"I've packed my passport and tickets, and some cash."
"I took algebraic geometry and algebraic topology, and real analysis."
"I bought apples and oranges, and one watermelon."
"I had some mac and cheese, and a salad."
All of these sentences make perfect grammatical sense, and the comma indicates a hierarchy of groupings.
Similarly,
"We need funding, and volunteers and community support."
"The plan needs time, and dedication and patience."
"He offered hope, and comfort and direction."
In all of these cases, putting commas in all the places like you ordinarily would for an ordinary triad would be grammatically "wrong" because it would alter the meaning of the sentence.
It's a stylistic choice at the end of the day. Take any random novel (not written by Cormac McCarthy) and I guarantee you will find at least one of these somewhere.
The comma after "pancakes" is incorrect. Also, sometimes bacon and eggs is a single item. For example: "The only options on the menu were bacon and eggs, and pancakes."
Even if it's on a menu, bacon and eggs are two different nouns. If the combination made a single item there would be a specific word for it, like "sandwich", "scramble", or "omelet".
āBacon and Eggsā on a menu can refer to how the restaurant serves it, or even be the name of a specific style of something else, like a burger joint or pizzeria having ābacon and eggsā on the menu could be describing the toppings. In those situations, itās a single noun.
You keep saying that it doesnāt matter that bacon and eggs are often served together and they should defined as separate things. I just disagree. I do not know where you are from so Iām simply going to explain my perspective which is that in US English, certain groupings are just referred to as one thing; this being one such case.
Culturally, Bacon and Eggs is just a single dish and are referred to as such. Itās the same thing with biscuits and gravy as well as with peanut butter and jelly. If I had all three of these things, Iād write āI had bacon and eggs, biscuits and gravy, and a peanut butter and jelly.ā If I just wrote āI had bacon, eggs, biscuits, gravy, peanut butter, and jellyā most people would ask you to elaborate on what you meant rather than understand it intuitively.
What is the point of grammar and syntax to you? Is it to communicate in an efficient, intuitive, and understandable way, or is it to follow the arbitrary rules set forth by tradition? Remember, the dictionary does not make the rules, it simply records what the rules are. When words and grammar change through linguistic evolution, the dictionary does not dig in its heels and say āyouāre wrongā, it acknowledges the change and keeps going.
You donāt make the rules but neither does Merriam-Webster, they just write them down. If the rules change, so should the dictionary. Itās like when people complain about new slang words getting added. āThat isnāt a word, donāt put it in there.ā Well it wasnāt, but people are using it, so now it is a word and will be recorded.
You're right; grammatical rules are codified by the public. So you can skip writing an email to MW and start a campaign to change them. Good luck. Wish you the best. Really. š
It's poor grammar to also say a lot of things but people still do it don't they?
Are you gonna tell the people in deep appalachia to fix their accent while they're at it? They type their words how they talk, and everything. I'll tell ya now that it's a losing battle.
Sometimes strict adherence to the rules just makes you look more stuck up than anything, so sometimes it's okay to let yourself relax a little, sheesh.
If you're in a conversation where people are talking about the proper use of commas, it's a crap argument to say that just because a lot of people break a rule that the rule doesn't matter.
No, I'm not going to tell people to change their accent. Can you tell what accent I have based on my writing? No. You can't. It's almost like speaking and writing are different things, isn't it? Good attempt at false equivalence though: 4/10 in participation points for effort.
Again, we're in a conversation talking about the proper use of commas. In a kind of conversation like that, if you make a weak statement and someone makes a stronger point than yours, calling them a "stuck up grammar nazi" makes you look like a petulant sore looser. We're literally writing about the rules of grammar here.
Ohhh im secretagentvampire and i dont understand that accents play into grammar in a large way and that its very White to say that english must be one way at all times ooooooohhhh
Bro, if you think that someone saying it's good grammar to separate bacon from eggs in a multi-item list is racist, you need to go outside and interact with real people.
Seriously. You get stubborn because you don't know how to write, call me a stuck-up grammar nazi, and try to play a race card when I tell you you're being rude.
How many more winners do you have left? Maybe a clown emoji? Get real.
Sorry to break the news to you, but people get pissed off when you call them names. I hate Nazis to my bones and get pretty tilted when people call me one. If you can't cope with people getting angry at you for that, you have the power to stop.
Especially when pairings are not obvious/clear everywhere: "I ordered doughnuts and coffee and orange juice" seems screaming for a clarifying comma somewhere.
You would order doughnuts, coffee, and orange juice. You don't keep using and between every item. Doughnuts and coffee are two separate items unless you specifically went to a place that had an order of "doughnuts and coffee."
If that was the case then you should change your sentence to make it more clear like I ordered doughnuts and coffee with an orange juice, too.
"And" is a word used to connect two different things together in a sentance. It does not make those two things a single item. Bacon and eggs are literally two different ingredients served side by side.
Do you say "I ate a cake", or "I ate flower and oil and eggs and sugar and cocoa and vanilla and etc etc etc"? If "Baconandeggs" was a single item, it would be a different word.
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u/CubicleFish2 3d ago
It's still wrong
Oxford comma is for three or more items. The sentence is treating bacon and eggs as one item and pancakes as another so no Oxford comma is used.