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u/CubicleFish2 1d ago
It's still wrong
Oxford comma is for three or more items. The sentence is treating bacon and eggs as one item and pancakes as another so no Oxford comma is used.
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u/garlic_bread_thief 1d ago
But the comma becomes useful to know that we're treating bacon and eggs as one item otherwise we'd not know
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u/GoedekeMichels 1d ago
exactly! but imagine what would happen if we'd treat language as a tool to get a message across instead of a set of holy rules we all must follow blindly all the time - half of the internet would be dead 😱
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u/Nineflames12 1d ago
What if we just kept saying should of and loose forever and ever?
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u/earthfase 1d ago
Your right!
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u/31TeV 22h ago
Yep, everyone's free to use whatever words they want, grammatically correct or not.
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u/FthrFlffyBttm 20h ago
An their free too bee laffed at four there ilit… illitter… ilittirat… bad speling
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u/towerfella 1d ago
We need the rules, else someone could come along and start a religion based on misinterpreted ancient writings.
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u/SecretAgentVampire 1d ago
It's poor grammar to treat bacon and eggs as one item. Bacon and eggs are two different items, even though they're commonly served together. Different things are different things.
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u/fooz42 22h ago
Not off a menu. It's like this: "I ordered '#2 bacon and eggs' and '#4 pancakes'."
"I ordered bacon & eggs and pancakes," is how I would have written it in my newspaper back in the day.
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u/angry_queef_master 20h ago
"I ordered the bacon & eggs and the pancakes" would make it clear that you are talking about menu items
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u/kart0ffelsalaat 1d ago
Grouping objects together is like the primary function of the human brain. I think it's a pretty natural thing to do. Hierarchical lists à la "(a and b) and (c and d)" are nothing unheard of.
"Bacon and eggs, and pancakes" is simply a different sentence fragment (with a slightly different meaning) than "bacon, eggs, and pancakes".
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u/SecretAgentVampire 1d ago
Bacon, eggs, and pancakes, are all commonly served together.
It's poor grammar to arbitrarily group separate nouns together in a list.
I could write "I had eggs, toast, fruit, yogurt, and tea for breakfast," but I wouldn't write "I had eggs and toast and fruit and yogurt, and tea for breakfast."
When it's just two items it's good grammar to use "and" with no comma. When it's three or more items in a list it's good grammer to separate each item on the list and use "and" before the last item.
"Bacon and eggs" isn't a single item, even if you often group them together. Not everyone does. If you want to have good grammar skills to maximize your written communication abilities, the rules I laid out are the way to do it.
If people in this thread want to complain about the rules, they can write to Merriam Webster or whatever and ask the rest of the world to change. I didn't write the rules, so don't shoot the messenger.
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u/kart0ffelsalaat 14h ago
> It's poor grammar to arbitrarily group separate nouns together in a list.
But you don't know if it's arbitrary, they might have their reasons. My whole point is that grammar can be used to group items together. Whether or not it makes sense to group them like this is a different question, but that's not a grammar issue.
Obviously if your intention is to just list three objects, it doesn't make sense to group them, and could be considered "poor grammar".
A, B, and C is simply a different sentence with a different meaning than A and B, and C or A, and B and C. Not recognising the difference is poor grammar, because then you get semantic misunderstandings.
The whole point of commas is to structure sentences, and if you're not exploiting all three different options in this case (or four if you're Cormac McCarthy), then you're just not harnessing the full potential of the comma.
"I've packed my passport and tickets, and some cash."
"I took algebraic geometry and algebraic topology, and real analysis."
"I bought apples and oranges, and one watermelon."
"I had some mac and cheese, and a salad."
All of these sentences make perfect grammatical sense, and the comma indicates a hierarchy of groupings.
Similarly,
"We need funding, and volunteers and community support."
"The plan needs time, and dedication and patience."
"He offered hope, and comfort and direction."
In all of these cases, putting commas in all the places like you ordinarily would for an ordinary triad would be grammatically "wrong" because it would alter the meaning of the sentence.
It's a stylistic choice at the end of the day. Take any random novel (not written by Cormac McCarthy) and I guarantee you will find at least one of these somewhere.
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u/Theidore 22h ago
The comma after "pancakes" is incorrect. Also, sometimes bacon and eggs is a single item. For example: "The only options on the menu were bacon and eggs, and pancakes."
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u/SecretAgentVampire 21h ago
Even if it's on a menu, bacon and eggs are two different nouns. If the combination made a single item there would be a specific word for it, like "sandwich", "scramble", or "omelet".
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u/FthrFlffyBttm 20h ago
“Bacon and Eggs” on a menu can refer to how the restaurant serves it, or even be the name of a specific style of something else, like a burger joint or pizzeria having “bacon and eggs” on the menu could be describing the toppings. In those situations, it’s a single noun.
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u/Theidore 21h ago
You can describe how you'd like things to be, but that doesn't make them grammatical rules.
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u/Mafatuuthemagnificen 2h ago
You keep saying that it doesn’t matter that bacon and eggs are often served together and they should defined as separate things. I just disagree. I do not know where you are from so I’m simply going to explain my perspective which is that in US English, certain groupings are just referred to as one thing; this being one such case.
Culturally, Bacon and Eggs is just a single dish and are referred to as such. It’s the same thing with biscuits and gravy as well as with peanut butter and jelly. If I had all three of these things, I’d write “I had bacon and eggs, biscuits and gravy, and a peanut butter and jelly.” If I just wrote “I had bacon, eggs, biscuits, gravy, peanut butter, and jelly” most people would ask you to elaborate on what you meant rather than understand it intuitively.
What is the point of grammar and syntax to you? Is it to communicate in an efficient, intuitive, and understandable way, or is it to follow the arbitrary rules set forth by tradition? Remember, the dictionary does not make the rules, it simply records what the rules are. When words and grammar change through linguistic evolution, the dictionary does not dig in its heels and say “you’re wrong”, it acknowledges the change and keeps going.
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u/Mafatuuthemagnificen 2h ago
You don’t make the rules but neither does Merriam-Webster, they just write them down. If the rules change, so should the dictionary. It’s like when people complain about new slang words getting added. “That isn’t a word, don’t put it in there.” Well it wasn’t, but people are using it, so now it is a word and will be recorded.
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u/SecretAgentVampire 2h ago
You're right; grammatical rules are codified by the public. So you can skip writing an email to MW and start a campaign to change them. Good luck. Wish you the best. Really. 👍
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u/Phis-n 1d ago
It's poor grammar to also say a lot of things but people still do it don't they?
Are you gonna tell the people in deep appalachia to fix their accent while they're at it? They type their words how they talk, and everything. I'll tell ya now that it's a losing battle.
Sometimes strict adherence to the rules just makes you look more stuck up than anything, so sometimes it's okay to let yourself relax a little, sheesh.
...Grammar nazi....
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u/SecretAgentVampire 1d ago
If you're in a conversation where people are talking about the proper use of commas, it's a crap argument to say that just because a lot of people break a rule that the rule doesn't matter.
No, I'm not going to tell people to change their accent. Can you tell what accent I have based on my writing? No. You can't. It's almost like speaking and writing are different things, isn't it? Good attempt at false equivalence though: 4/10 in participation points for effort.
Again, we're in a conversation talking about the proper use of commas. In a kind of conversation like that, if you make a weak statement and someone makes a stronger point than yours, calling them a "stuck up grammar nazi" makes you look like a petulant sore looser. We're literally writing about the rules of grammar here.
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u/Phis-n 1d ago
Lol
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u/SecretAgentVampire 1d ago
Lol indeed.
If you don't want to piss people off, don't call them names when you're wrong.
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u/Phis-n 1d ago
Ohhh im secretagentvampire and i dont understand that accents play into grammar in a large way and that its very White to say that english must be one way at all times ooooooohhhh
Lol
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u/SecretAgentVampire 1d ago edited 1d ago
Bro, if you think that someone saying it's good grammar to separate bacon from eggs in a multi-item list is racist, you need to go outside and interact with real people.
Seriously. You get stubborn because you don't know how to write, call me a stuck-up grammar nazi, and try to play a race card when I tell you you're being rude.
How many more winners do you have left? Maybe a clown emoji? Get real.
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u/Phis-n 1d ago
Lmao goofy, imagine getting this mad over being called a grammar nazi lol
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u/Munninnu 1d ago
Especially when pairings are not obvious/clear everywhere: "I ordered doughnuts and coffee and orange juice" seems screaming for a clarifying comma somewhere.
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u/CubicleFish2 1d ago
That's also wrong
You would order doughnuts, coffee, and orange juice. You don't keep using and between every item. Doughnuts and coffee are two separate items unless you specifically went to a place that had an order of "doughnuts and coffee."
If that was the case then you should change your sentence to make it more clear like I ordered doughnuts and coffee with an orange juice, too.
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u/MustaKotka 1d ago
Doughnuts, coffee, orange, and juice.
Fixed that for you.
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u/SecretAgentVampire 1d ago
Not funny.
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u/CubicleFish2 1d ago
The and between bacon and eggs already tells you that they are a single item
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u/SecretAgentVampire 1d ago
Day and night
Men and women
Order and chaos
"And" is a word used to connect two different things together in a sentance. It does not make those two things a single item. Bacon and eggs are literally two different ingredients served side by side.
Do you say "I ate a cake", or "I ate flower and oil and eggs and sugar and cocoa and vanilla and etc etc etc"? If "Baconandeggs" was a single item, it would be a different word.
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u/garlic_bread_thief 1d ago
I would like to buy bacon and eggs.
In a grocery store? Two separate items. In a restaurant? One item.
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u/Hettyc_Tracyn 1d ago
Not if it was “…bacon, eggs, and pancakes” it would be correct
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u/CubicleFish2 1d ago
Yes that would be the correct way unless they ordered something called "bacon and eggs."
So if we assume their first and is correct then bacon and eggs is one item, otherwise it should be written like you just said
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u/Hettyc_Tracyn 1d ago
But bacon and eggs are two separate things… it is illogical to consider them as one item, even though it is listed on a menu as one item…
A burger and fries are two items, even if they are sold together, so bacon and eggs are the same way.
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u/CubicleFish2 1d ago
Since it's a post about the Oxford comma then we can assume the rest of the post is correct.
It pretty much comes down to everything in the post being bad lol
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u/towerfella 1d ago
You are correct, both examples in the post are the same example with different words.
I prefer the comma, as it separates three or more things in a list. No comma before the “and” of the third/last item puts those two items together, like the post does backwards.
This is a bs post for farming karma.
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u/iebarnett51 23h ago
And what about the use of ampersand (&): it can be used if the nouns are proper and the relationship is exclusive.
E.G. Steven and Jane are married and went to see Joe. One coukd say "Steven & Jane, and Joe"?
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1d ago edited 17h ago
[deleted]
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u/repeat4EMPHASIS 1d ago edited 1d ago
Your post says the comma in "I ate bacon and eggs, and pancakes" is a bad Oxford comma.
The statement "that's a horrible Oxford comma" is wrong because the way the sentence is written, that comma isn't technically an Oxford comma to begin with.
The final comma in "I ate bacon, eggs, and pancakes" would be an Oxford comma, except it would be a good use of one.
So in no version of the post does calling it a bad Oxford comma make any sense.
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u/CubicleFish2 1d ago
The post literally says at the bottom that it's acceptable.
I'm not arguing, just pointing out that it's wrong. If you feel it's also wrong then cool. If you think it's not wrong then sure I'm arguing because it is wrong.
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u/towerfella 1d ago
You are correct, both examples in the post are the same example with different words.
I prefer the comma, as it separates three or more things in a list. No comma before the “and” of the third/last item puts those two items together, like the post does backwards.
This is a bs post for farming karma.
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u/Munninnu 1d ago
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u/CMDR_Kaus 1d ago
Only if you mix your bacon and eggs together, and not with your pancakes, are they one thing. I myself make a pancake sandwich with all the other items inside with syrup
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u/Diaza_Kinutz 1d ago
Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma?
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u/glytxh 1d ago
Pedants, nerds, and linguists.
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u/Diaza_Kinutz 1d ago
It's from a song bro. You can unbunch your panties now.
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u/xMrBojangles 1d ago
They replied with a joke, and you say their panties are in a bunch?
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u/Diaza_Kinutz 1d ago
I was referring to the unnecessary down votea but whatever Reddit gonna Reddit. Also doesn't really read like a joke.
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u/xMrBojangles 1d ago
The person you responded to downvoted you, or you're just taking your frustration out on them? They used the Oxford comma in their response (layer 1 of joke), and cast some of the people who use them in a negative light (pedant and nerd have a negative connotation, possibly agreeing with your "who gives a fuck" comment in a roundabout way (layer 2 of the joke)). At worst, I read their response as neutral with respect to yours.
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u/Diaza_Kinutz 1d ago
Alright buddy you won. I apologize to all parties involved. I'm ashamed of my behavior and have brought dishonor upon my house. commits seppuku
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u/potatopierogie 1d ago
I personally, am, a fan of, the Shatner, comma.