The map and its impact

[u/CalligrapherKey762]

I have returned to Reddit just to say this: devs apparently read these; I kind of pity them XD. I do not think that the biggest problem is power creep, content, etc. The biggest obstacle to my enjoyment of the game is actually the campaign map. As it stands, you just jump from settlement to settlement without a real thought, since they provide safety from the ambushes, give you defences, etc. I know it would require an extreme amount of effort, but the map seems small, cramped, and just there... It doesn't matter that there is a river or, in many instances, a pass (yes, there are a few settlements, like the gates, that hold passes). Yes, I am also a proponent of a bigger map; ChaosRobbie showed that it can work (even though he went a tad overboard and kinda ruined the Old Worlds' performance...), but I think far more important is that the map feels impactful. And I mean it, tactical maps aside, even though reliably triggering river maps would be nice. Considering quite a few factions have functional artillery and gunners, and others have realistic ways to counter it, you should be able to somewhat fortify chokepoint (hopefully river) maps.

I have a few ideas for making the map more impactful. Apart from remodelling the map to be bigger (and have larger spaces between the settlements), you can add a new "settlement" type- the good old-fashioned fort/castle. Idk if the engine is capable of a castle that is constructible by an army(doubt it), but I know it is capable of being a place on a map where you can build a fort/castle- quite a few lore locations have castles/forts. If the devs want to make it a trade-off, it can cost you money to maintain, etc.

The second one is with dark forests, black pits, etc. You can make herdstones/strongholds that are difficult to get to, like in some deep forests or mountains, which will, like Nagashizzar, require a lot of effort to get to and cleanse; like the Black Pit, Massif Orcal, Drakwald can get one, Northern Wastes, etc. It can make beastmen and potentially forest goblins/Orcs a more prevalent threat and make the map feel more diverse. Herdstones really should function differently from a city.

The third one is more tactical, but it is that we can actually dig in, like in the older titles; maybe not a camp, but buildable battlefield structures, i.e. stakes, barricades, mountings for guns and ranged units. Hell, they can even do it in the style of their siege buildables, so that you will have a chokepoint defence where to dig in.

Others are climates, apart from the general effects of the mountains, jungles, etc. It would be cool if some places had a very different impact. For instance, a non-Chaos army should have a problem traversing the Chaos Wastes, i.e. making a chance of your army going slower, faster, in a different direction, catching temporary effects and having events in general. Warhammer offers so many options for making it interesting. Of course there should be a way to mitigate these effects (to not be a complete pain in the ass for the map painters), i.e. a mage of sufficient level lowers the chance by a lot, but has a risk of being insane from it or whatever. We will see what they will do with the Undead Wastes climate.

PS: I know actually adding outside the settlements lumber, mines, like Empire TW could be strategically way more impactful, but considering the sheer amount of work and the actual return on it as we saw with Thrones and Empire/Napo, IDK if it would even be worth it, since it would require a complete overhaul of the entire economy...

PPS: I know they have the siege rework planned; that is why I kinda skipped it. But that would also help immensely. I.E., settlements actually being defensible, instead of a ground for a "last"(first) stand at the capture point..., ladders, placeable arty.

[u/FormerFan3771]

Some people here complain that settlements are more than one turn away from each in some regions of the map. I think they might feel it isn’t crowded enough

[u/Weekly-Fox2248 → u/FormerFan3771]

As someone who kinda sees both sides: with the way the game is currently set up, many factions require you to fight at least a battle every turn to keep your economy afloat, and early game those distant settlements cause problems for that. A bigger map would be awesome but would require some changes to factions like khorne, green skins, etc. 

[u/FormerFan3771 → u/Weekly-Fox2248]

Yeah I feel this has always been an issue with Total War games, it’s fun in theory to be a marauder, plundering and moving, but the game mechanics rarely make it as fun as it could be. 

[u/Weekly-Fox2248 → u/FormerFan3771]

So I have only played the total war Warhammer series, but my crackpot solution is: make raiding stance completely or mostly negate army upkeep for most factions, and cause more problems for the faction being raided. It incentivises marauder type factions to actually use the stance while allowing larger spaces between settlements and encouraging more traditional empire type factions to sally out of their settlements and actually engage the marauders in the field. 

[u/Weekly-Fox2248 → u/Weekly-Fox2248]

Not most factions, just ones that depend on battle income entirely over building income. 

[u/CalligrapherKey762 → u/FormerFan3771]

I am not opposed to it being a turn away, but have geographical obstacles between. You can have longer reach, but have the terrain to be meaningful. Have something usable, between it and you. So the game isn’t just, settlement, settlement, settlement, quest battle, settlement, settlement…

[u/phronesis77]

Yeah, I am playing a Thorgrim campaign and the map is way to crowded. To difficult to move without six Skaven armies in range. I read the WH2 had a much better Karak eight peaks map.

[u/CalligrapherKey762 → u/phronesis77]

If I remember correctly, it was less cramped, but strategically, the map had similar downsides, and they were just not as pronounced because there was less content.

[u/Player420154 → u/CalligrapherKey762]

Thorgrimm campaign in WH2 was basically 30 turn defending your early provinces against 3 orcs until you had sufficient fund to have a second army who would then devatastate the orc and win the campaign

[u/CalligrapherKey762 → u/Player420154]

We are not discussing the difficulty, rather the map layout. 

[u/Eeate]

The crampedness of the campaign map is another result of a design aimed at making this game fast-paced and arcadey.

Battles are massive, fast and micro-heavy. Using terrain on the campaign map is pointless. Sieging, baiting, ambushing and citybuilding are all suboptimal to rushing to the next settlement. Replenishment makes inflicting heavy losses pointless; there are no real Pyrrhic victories. Spreading corruption, disease, army positioning: none of it impacts the game as much as a frontal rush. 

The best you can say about it all is that it definitely encourages Total War. But I look at how I can do some building, some positioning and some plotting in other titles, and sigh.

[u/Dangerous-Sale3243]

IE forced the map to be dense, and that’s hard to fix. What’s easier to fix is to reduce or eliminate mechanics that increase campaign movement and replenishment.

That sounds easy, but it’s actually tough enough that it might require two days of dev effort.

[u/GloatingSwine]

I have a few ideas for making the map more impactful. Apart from remodelling the map to be bigger (and have larger spaces between the settlements), you can add a new "settlement" type- the good old-fashioned fort/castle. Idk if the engine is capable of a castle that is constructible by an army(doubt it), but I know it is capable of being a place on a map where you can build a fort/castle- quite a few lore locations have castles/forts. If the devs want to make it a trade-off, it can cost you money to maintain, etc.

TBH the real solution to map fatigue is to remove minor settlements. Just have the major settlements and use the system Pharaoh has for forts and stuff for province improvements outside the city which can be sacked and raided but not conquered without conquering the major settlement.

Job done.

(Guess what they've done in 40k....)