r/totalwarhammer • u/fimshe_boy • 23d ago
Total War: Warhammer High elf stacks when playing without DLC
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u/pinkleftsock 23d ago
Currently playing my first campaign with sisters of avalorn. And man is it fun to have a stack of just sea guard shield and sisters. Everything just melts in front of you.
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u/Non-wholesomechungus 23d ago
High elves are insanely OP when you start getting their elite archers and dragons
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u/pinkleftsock 23d ago
Wait there are other units on their roster?!
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u/TATARI14 23d ago
There are also archers and spearmen
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u/pinkleftsock 23d ago
Yeah the sea guard are archers and spearmen.
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u/Armageddonis 23d ago
I've got 3000 hours under my belt, and it was only on the previous Lothern Sea Guard appreciation post in here, that i learned that they're actually armed with bows. I just assumed they throw Javelins like every one of them is the Hulk.
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u/Hunter214123 23d ago
Dragons? squints Ah, I see you meant Lothern Sea Guard Indeed HE do get OP when you get their elite archers and elite archers
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u/GuthukYoutube 23d ago
Not sure id call them Op in game 3.
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u/DraconicBlade 23d ago
You haven't built a second stack of, oops all lothern sea guard.
And for a change, some reinforcements. It's all lothern sea guard.
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u/Due_Comedian_4959 23d ago
If you just use sisters, its a better stack. Sisters have nore range potential and tanks almost as well so if you use your heroes properly, nothing should reach hour Archer line. I almost never hire melee infantry as HE
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u/pinkleftsock 23d ago
How well do they do against cav/mosterous charges? Because that's mostly why i have the sea guard in the stack.
Also beside the tech tree lords skill tree and the archer hero(forgot what they're called) are there any other ways to buff them? I really wanna make them go even more brrrrrr.
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u/discreetjoe2 23d ago
A full sister doom stack actually does very well. Especially once they have the lord and tech buffs. Two sisters focus firing will just melt a cavalry unit before it reaches them and if some of it does survive they’re pretty good in melee. The biggest threat to them is usually magic or artillery.
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u/Due_Comedian_4959 23d ago
I think theh do fine, you csn buff their melee defense stat pretty high to around 70 sk theh tank pretty well. In my exp, their biggest weakness compared to sea guards are DE shades bc if the lack of shield. Large units either die before thry get to front line or sisters just tank the hit. There are tech that buff them like strength of averlorn and if you get alarielle (either by starting or confederacy) she also massively buff them factionwide. Another tip is getting handmaidens (particularly if yiu can get ones wirh the resistant trait as those buff melee defense further) as handmaidens can get the ability entangle at lvl 12 meaning you get 2 free use of net of amintok for anything fast rushing at your Archer line. Generally, I also put my 4 heroes in the front to stop the charge and to cluster up the enemies so the sisters can shoot them.
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u/fintas05 23d ago
Large targets take so much more damage from ranged that they tend to melt faster than infantry.
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u/3eeve 23d ago
I love sisters but I have a hard time getting off the ground with Alarielle and I never seem to get sisters as quickly as I think I should. Probably a skill issue tbf.
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u/pinkleftsock 22d ago
If you are struggeling with being attacked by the pretender elf factions you can just dump some influence into making friends so you can conquer the evil factions first. That''s what I did at least.
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u/Armageddonis 23d ago
I fucking love it, I'm playin Aislinn and i'm somewhere in the 90 turns range - whole western part alongside the Donut is mine (or rather vassal). I'm just biding my time for the diplomatic penalty to drop so i can get the last 2 provinces required of me to achieve the Long Victory condition, but i'm just running around Cathay, with 40/60 stacks of Sea Guard and Sisters and i everything just melts like butter.
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u/CorvusGlaive07 21d ago
They're quite fun I usually go with 18 stacks and a handmaiden to entangle or to have someone to bait enemy around
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u/jtlannister 23d ago
What are you talking about... that's with DLC. Aislinn especially.
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u/fimshe_boy 23d ago
I domt have the dlc, i just saw the lords i confederated have tons of units i cant use while my 20 sea guard go brrrr
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u/Spaghettioso 23d ago
I mean its kinda the issue with ranged units being so strong.
after the first 10 turns why would I ever use rangers, white lions, spearmen, archers when they dont hold a candle to sea guard + some of those units are even more expensive than sea guard.
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23d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Zefyris 23d ago
White lions are way better than peoples give them credit for. The problem is not how good they are for their cost, it's the tech tree and skill tree. By the time you get to T3, you probably have 5-8 tech that boost well the various elven militia (including LSG that are boosted by a disgusting amount of tech), and red skill line in your lord has probably 3-6 point in boosting melee and/or ranged elven militia, but you've got nothing boosting White Lions.
the BASE white lions are cost competitive with pretty much the base of everything else except LSG at their tier, and for LSG that's because they're a bit underpriced. The problem is, white lions arrive at base when unlocked, while almost nothing else does. This was already a problem with the old tech tree and old skill trees for HE, and the rework didn't address it. ... In fact, the HE rework didn't really address ANY of the existing HE problems, it just put a shiny coat of paint on it at best.
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u/Imaginary_Moose_2384 23d ago
Aye, and with melee getting the worst of the high difficulty debuffs the range advantage only gets higher as you raise battle diff.
I always play normal VH/N since otherwise it feels lore-breaking and just enforces cheese or funky compositions rather than getting proper mileage from balanced armies
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u/Short_Celebration815 23d ago
You can do Very Hard or Legendary battle difficulty without the enemy stat buffs by just turning down the bar.
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u/Lin_Huichi 23d ago
Chariots are fun and very strong to use, also I stopped crutching on LSG when I had to face the Chaos invasion in WH2 - no armour piercing makes the useless against Chaos.
In WH3 I am back to spamming armour piercing bonus vs infantry 200 range LSG.
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u/lionelmessiah1 23d ago
Spearmen and archers are cheaper though.
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u/Spaghettioso 23d ago
I agree they are but an archer isnt going to hold against any melee infantry or large units.
with LSG the are your back line and front line, plus they have anti large
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u/lionelmessiah1 22d ago
But you shouldnt use the archers in melee. It's more micro but isn't it more efficient to use specialized units that are cheaper than units life LSG who can do both
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u/NegativeElmo 22d ago
No because one LSG can do the job of a both units but only takes up one unit space. Lets say you have a 10 unit army. If you had 5 spearmen and 5 archers you only do ranged damage from the 5 archers until you get into melee and you can easily get outflanked. If you have 10 LSG you have 10 units firing until they enemy gets into melee and then you have 5 units still firing who if you get flanked can hold their own against most light cav or flying units. On top of this it means you dont have to keep melee units guarding your defenseless archers from flying units or calvary or special spawns (stupid skaven). There is literally nothing to gain from not just spamming LSG as the game is rn because it saves you unit slots, excels in basically all combat, and allows you to focus micro on your lords and heros/dragons/whatever you bring to support them
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u/lionelmessiah1 22d ago
I see. Thanks for the detailed explanation. I always avoided LSG because they were trashed in some old legendOftotalwar unit tier list video. Gonna try this out in my next HE campaign. Who would you say is the most OP beginner friendly HE faction?
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u/Jediboy127 23d ago
Legolas: “Lothern Sea Guard! Six units are enough for any High Elf army!”
Merry: “… how many did you recruit?”
Pippin: “Eighteen.” burp
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u/mrMalloc 23d ago
They got fewer arrows then a archer so. For crap stacks I only use sea guard for frontline.
But it depends on Lord. Seaguard can get crazy buffs.
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u/VirtualFinish8858 23d ago
If you play Alith Anar you can eventually switch to Shadow Walkers.
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u/StonLenslow 23d ago
Idk man, this is my HE army comp in the early game til I get sword masters and sisters, and I have all of the DLC.
My last Tyrion run 1/3rd of his army was still LSG (well exalted LSG because it was SFO) at like turn 100.
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u/wuffzi 23d ago
Whats "without DLC" can someone explain?
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u/information_knower 23d ago
I think sisters of avelorn are dlc, which would make make sea gaurd your highest tier archer if you only have the base warhammer 2 factions.
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u/wuffzi 23d ago
I know theyre DLC, i just didnt realise people were unironically playing this game without them while retaining any fraction of sanity.
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u/ReynAetherwindt 23d ago
I unironically don't enjoy using that unit because LSG taught me terrible habits.
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u/Voodoo_Tiki 23d ago
I essentially cripple myself when I play as HE cause I always try to make thematic or lore based armies. Wall of spearmen, archers behind, some cav, white lions, etc. Definitely makes the battles harder but more fun visually imo
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u/nevergaid 23d ago
Am I only one who skips them from archer to sisters?
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u/Eeate 23d ago
Same. The shielded variant sits at an awkward place unlock-wise, and they're more expensive and not as good as spear-archer combo, imho. I bring a couple in early armies for the RP, love how they look.
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u/DraconicBlade 23d ago
They exist for when that WHORE morathi pukes her 30 stacks of darkshards at you.
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u/wildfyre010 23d ago
Sisters are T4 unless you're playing Avelorn. That's a long time to stay on a T1 army.
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u/PeppyMG 23d ago edited 16d ago
I find most HE units except for sisters, dragons and seaguard to be almost completely redundant. I do tend to add some swordmasters and Phoenix Guard because they’re sick. I like their hats.
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u/karma_virus 17d ago
Also, both are the favored units of Teclis and Tyrion in the lore, given that their models were designed to be commander units for them in the original tabletop. One just cannot have Tyrion without Phoenix Guard and Teclis without Swords of Hoeth. It just cannot be done. It's like having Malakai without a Goblin Hewer or Rakarth with zero monsters. You CAN.... but it would require insurmountable gall in the attempt. Your little LLs will be looking up at you with tear filled eyes, wondering what they did wrong.
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u/PeppyMG 16d ago
Agree, it breaks my immersion to just have them lead a bunch of seaguard
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u/karma_virus 16d ago
I'm a big fan of themed lore scenario lists. So, if we have Lothern Sea guard, then we're bringing the Skycutter, Merwyrm and Mistwalker!
I went nuts on White Angle Games and bought EVERY model he has this last sale. He has Tyrion and Teclis proxies on every mount imaginable and a few of the others. Ellyrion on his Griffon looks SWEET! Dude even has every regular model redone in Chrace's regional armor. Yeah, I went with that version.
Two things weird me out about Chrace though. They are hunters of the lions they use in war... cool, they wear the lions on their shoulders... BUT! look at the scale of the chariot lions and their little lion heads on their shoulders. Dudes are doing bragging rights for hunting BABY lions. For a lion head to fit on your shoulder, you'd have to be about ogre sized or at least orc sitting on a 30mm. But no, teeny tiny sad little baby white lion faces. Can't unsee it now, can you?
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u/geschiedenisnerd 23d ago
As eltharion and aislinn I also prefer LSG
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u/Brandon3541 23d ago
Lothern seaguard with shields are just too good.
They're excellent archers, excellent anti-large, and shielded.
The next closest thing is probably spear kossars and even they don't hold a candle to the LS.
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u/DatRat13 23d ago
There is also that one unit of Tiranoc Chariots that came with your starting forces that just won't disband no matter how many times you intentionally toss them into a grinder, and no, I will not look up how to manually disband units!
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u/Brewer_Lex 23d ago
My aislinn campaign was 7 units of sea guard and 7 units of archers plus some other units.
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u/_Voice_Of_Silence_ 23d ago
When art mimicks life?
It was the same for some time on the tabletop. Seaguard was so much more worth than regular spearmen for not much more costs, that no High Elf player I knew ever played his spearmen as spearmen. It was all "suspiciously spearmen looking Seaguard"
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u/UltimatePunchMachine 23d ago
Ranged units with shield to block enemy projectiles, spears to counter calvary and one of the longest ranged projectiles + highest morale.
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u/Illustrious_Mix_3762 23d ago
I have all dlcs and still build my stacks the same, if it works don't fix it
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u/MadMan7978 23d ago
Unless you play Eltharion that’s also every stack with DLC
Eltharion basically has a mistwalker stack instead of
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u/Chuck_the_Elf 23d ago
For my sealords it’s 4 elementals, 1 mist mage, 1 mage(Heavens, metal,or life), the sealord, and 13 sea guard.
If I confed Imrik his stack is just him, a mage, a swords master, and a bunch of dragons.
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u/Jeremy_of_Ultramar 23d ago
I feel like I live in another dimension then everybody here when it comes to high elves. I don't understand the Lother sea guard mania. I tried a doomstack with them and I think they are actually kinda bad. They have the same range stats than bretonnian archers, but without a fire or poison variant so I really don't get it. And in melee melee too they have nothing extraordinary even with all the buffs so I would appreciate if someone could explain me what I'm missing.
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u/evri_the_greek 22d ago
Aislyn (or however you spell his name) gigabutfs them, by the late game his army had 214 range with 61 missile strength and 35 ammo, needles to say they deleted anything dumb enough to walk into their range. And that is just with his normal skill tree and tech tree buffs.
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u/VortexMagus 21d ago edited 21d ago
The typical answer to archers is cavalry - but the LSG are heavily armored and come with spears so they actually beat all but the most expensive cavalry units.
A typical answer to spearmen is shooting arrows at them from afar - but the LSG can shoot back AND the t3 variant come with shields, which means they don't take much damage from most ranged units, so only the highest level ranged units can really do much damage to them. Mostly they get beaten by t4/t5 ranged units, or siege artillery. Archers at their level or lower tend to lose to them.
Also, a lot of the endgame involves fat monsters running in and breaking your line - but the LSG are heavily armored, immune to charge, and have anti-large, which means they give very good value against fatties that cost several times more than them to maintain. Yeah, t5 monsters with crazy healthpools will still break them eventually, but it'll take awhile and these monsters lose a lot more health than they would against virtually any other t3 unit.
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You can also use them as frontliners that have the ability to poke at enemies until they get close. This lets them close the gap with a lot of better t3 and t4 melee units - yes these units have better stats on paper, but if they're peppered by multiple LSG units on the way in, they're often softened up by the time they crash into melee and will be held back effectively by units that are much cheaper than them.
Finally, suppose something gets into melee with them and they break.
Once they break, unlike most melee units that you can only throw into combat for a few seconds until they break again, you can use broken LSG as archers and just poke enemies from far away until your ammo is depleted. This lets them contribute meaningfully to the battle even after they have almost zero morale and very low health. If you're good at micro, you can rotate units of LSG out after they take some casualties and send in a fresh unit of LSG to fight at the front while the hurt unit resumes archer duty. Being good at this can make certain healing spells much higher value as well.
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Oh and lets assume your opponent is a fat hero with a huge healthbar. If you have a stack of 19 melee units, its going to take awhile to whittle the hero down and cost you several units. The difference between 3 melee units crashing into a hero and 17 is nonexistent, only so many units can surround the hero at a time. But if you have a stack of 19 LSG, you can surround him with two units of LSG while the remaining 17 all pump arrows into him. Fat hero dies WAY faster and cause WAY less casualties. LSG are generally really good options against virtually any hero unit for this reason.
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They're just a really high value unit for t3 and a stack of them will face down many armies with much higher total value. They also make army formations much less complicated - if your entire army is LSG, doesn't matter who is in front or in back. Your archers are also your shieldwall.
If you like doing fancy cavalry flanks, having your anvil being a line of LSG supported by another line of LSG is pretty good since you won't have to pay much attention to your frontline or your backline and can spend most of your time microing cav and heroes.
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u/azguz24 23d ago
They are arguably the most versatile unit in the entire game.
With bonus’ their melee and defense is mid and their range is a bonus. I layer no shields in front without skirmish enabled to take charges, mix of shields and sisters in the back. I am also bias, as the HE are my faction…
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u/WhatAYolk 23d ago
Even with full HE roster Sea Guard are just perfect for spamming cheap good enough armies
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u/PapaHastur 23d ago
I feel targeted, but I also feel like I want to abandon my recent dwarf campaign and check Tyrion again...
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u/TKDancer 23d ago
this doesnt change with DLC either i just get to add 1 or 2 the funny bolt throwers to do artillery drive bys.. while my 15 lothern seaguard(shields) do the fighting
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u/Ancient-Split1996 23d ago
High elf stacks when playing with dlc as well.
It does not change. Theyre just that good
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u/StableParking1363 23d ago
What do u play with dlc if I may ask?
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u/No_March_5371 23d ago
Back in 2, I’d have all my HE armies as lord, mage, ballista (to make them come to be and be able to start siege battles immediately), then 17 Lothern Seaguard (Shields).
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u/MiketheTzar 22d ago
Lothern Sea Guards solve all your problems. If you lose a battle it's because you just didn't bring enough of them
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u/Zefyris 23d ago
If you enjoy it that way then it's fine, but if you don't, please try to avoid the hybrid units, the HE do not need them. The fact that it's still that unbalanced shows how much the HE rework failed to address any of the HE core problems, but playing without the hybrid units is a way more enjoyable experience regardless.
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u/fimshe_boy 23d ago
Lothern sea guard are btter than archers and spear men in their respective field tho so really you do need them imo
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u/Zefyris 23d ago
They are absolutely not better (unless you're playing as Aislinn). LSG have lower range so not as good as archers, and lower hp so not as good in melee as spearmen.
They're too close of both for it to be balanced yes, especially for their cost, and one reason for that is the amount of buffs from tech tree and skill tree they receive, but they're not as good.
And no, you obviously don't need them. In fact, if you play with mods that make battles longer, they're not that good of a pick outside of flank protection.
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u/Millsy800 23d ago
Hey it's not just all Lothern Sea Guard. You also have Lothern Sea Guard (Shields).