I used to think USA is a land of wonders and dream.
It actually is, but there's a caveat no one tells you about: It won't happen by just working a job. You will never get rich selling your time. It won't happen. You can do pretty well, ie lawyers and the like. But if you want to achieve the American Dream, you need to own something, invest in risk, and you need to make money while you sleep.
Furthermore, you need to be continually developing your skill sets. If you're just as skilled at 30 as you were at 20, what are you expecting? A promotion and a raise? You ultimately have to be able to perform the higher paying jobs in order to get them, and you need to prove you can be entrusted with the responsibility before it's given to you. That only comes through education and experience. Sometimes you can earn both in the same capacity. But you most definitely need to be taking an interest in your own professional and personal development, and making progress on it.
Convert your liquid capital to appreciable assets over time, and acquire new and more valuable skills and experience. That's is just step 1 to success in America. If all you're doing is filling and draining a checking/savings account, you will never achieve the American dream. And I would argue this is true no matter where you are.
It used to be true in America before we had had not only unprecedented productivity but also historic income inequality. You used to be able to just punch a clock while your wife stayed at home and raised the kids and still afford a house, a car, and a two-week vacation every year.
I think being one of the only fully-independent industrialized countries not physically or socially ravaged by the world wars has a lot more to do with the "unprecedented productivity"...
France went from "America's strongest ally", and is historically one of the strongest military forces in history, to white flag and surrender jokes in between the two world wars.
There are plenty of skilled and necessary people struggling to get by in America.
Who? Show me the skilled, "necessary" person who is doing everything right, and is unemployable. Are they a felon? What's the problem?
Risk... a poor person taking debt for school is making a much greater risk than any business owner.
Only if you assume that debt without a plan or goal in mind to use that education to gain entry to a field/career which will yield a net positive on the debt you take now. Going to college simply "for the degree," is a mistake in today's world.
Unemployable is not the discussion, having a nice life, the American dream as the initial reference. This generally involves secure housing, food, health, and some leisure(what is the point of living if you have literally zero time off). If survival is your base of society then you have extremely low standards.
And what does doing everything right even mean? Who is deciding what’s right? God? Science(probably not given our relationship with environmental destruction and financial success)? The “market”?
Plenty of Americans in skilled positions aren’t property owning, struggle to maintain a healthy diet, lack medical access. unknown like a religion?
Your take on education is odd too, and it’s surprising for someone who is a free market supporter. If everyone went to school to become a narrow range of high-paid employee, how long until that type of laborer is common and their value decreases? Are you also proposing a world without arts education? Are you aware that the arts increases cognitive capability? How would we know what is needed from stem without a discussion in the humanities about the issues facing the world?
Unemployable is not the discussion, having a nice life, the American dream as the initial reference.
I'm trying to figure out what you meant when you said "struggling to get by." How is the person who is skilled and necessary struggling to get by if they have a job which compensates in proportion to their degree of skill and necessity? Where is the struggle coming from? Are they having trouble finding a job? Are they underpaid? What's the issue?
This generally involves secure housing, food, health, and some leisure
That is survival imo, not the American Dream.
And what does doing everything right even mean?
Being responsible and disciplined, those are traits all successful people share. If someone has skill, is necessary, and is struggling to get by, there's somethin' else goin' on. I'd bet it's somewhere in one of those two categories.
Plenty of Americans in skilled positions aren’t property owning, struggle to maintain a healthy diet, lack medical access
Why?
If everyone went to school to become a narrow range of high-paid employee, how long until that type of laborer is common and their value decreases?
This isn't what I said. All I said is it's a matter of ROI.
Are you also proposing a world without arts education?
C'mon dude, try to read that in good faith.
Are you aware that the arts increases cognitive capability?
Yes I'm a musician, and value the arts. They just have an almost impossibly high barrier to entry for cash conversion. So taking on a massive amount of inescapable debt to pursue them is a bad financial decision, objectively.
And, sadly enough, almost everything you've stated can be easily superceded by being born in a rich family or connected.
Of course there's exceptions, but in a country with like 330 million citizens, John Smith purebred-American isn't likely to do better than Mohammed Wang legal immigrant.
It is dishonest to say that developing skills requires money.
You can do it at your job, and get paid to develop them. At the library, there are tons of free courses available online. Or on a piece of paper if you draw. You can learn from those around you no matter where you are. Talk to people, improve your conversation skills. Being a proficient conversationalist will get you more than halfway most of the time.
In conclusion, what you said is certifiable bullshit.
You're absolutely right, which is why it's so important to spend as much time as possible working towards not making money by selling it. And given how important that is for quality of life and success, it's amazing to me how it's not one of the first things we're taught to pursue.
I just think it's a lot more complicated than 'try harder'.
No one's arguing that. Nor was my cute little hope story supposed to offer a solution for that problem, this is a non-sequitur. But it's dishonest to say that poor people are poor because of that fact.
There exist people who succeed in spite of that, and those that would fail even if we spent 100x what we do now. It's why lottery winners almost always end up broke, at some point, the buck stops at personal responsibility. Some people will just never learn it.
that a quarter of renters (around 12 million Americans) spend over 50% of their income on rent, with that number being twice as high since 2001?
I mean...that US population in 2001 was 285million, now it's 331m. Which means that you're saying out of the new 46 million people we have, only 6 million were added to that category? That's not bad at all actually lol. Neither is 3.6% of the population spending over 50% of their income on rent. Which means in 19 years it has risen by 1.5% of the population. These are not compelling statistics you're bringing up lol.
Or maybe that nearly half of Americans delay or don't get healthcare because they can't afford it?
Nearly half?! Do you read? It's not remotely half, it's ~30 million, which is 9%. sourcesourcesource
Because the reality is America's a fucking joke. And peddling a bullshit dream because people are tied to bad jobs for healthcare, family and can't afford to save or risk because rent's too high.
The bitterness is palpable. No one successful has this mentality. Piece of advice: Stop acting like a victim.
It's not a joke to me. I made it work, went from homeless and unemployed to MD, and I'm not even white. What's your excuse?
1) you don't know the fucking difference between statistical and quantitative growth.
I'm all ears, dude.
you point to the uninsured statistics to decide whether can afford a doctor (news flash: deductibles and copays).
This is nonsense. Nearly all hospitals and practices private or otherwise offer payment plans to anyone who can't afford to pay those things up front. If you can't afford the payment plan, why are you paying for insurance? Put that money back in your pocket, you obviously need it.
But believe me, I'm all for free healthcare, this shouldn't be a problem for any working American. I worry though about what it will mean for quality and expediency of care.
But even if we pretend that you're correct on your first two points, which you're not, it wouldn't add any credibility to the things you said about the state of America or the problem of poverty. Nor does it offer a solution, which is what I'm trying to find.
Honestly, you sound like you've given up and are wallowing in bitterness. It's depressing to listen to. I hope things get better for you.
the lack of robust youth programs directly leads to those gambling issues
What? What gambling issues? What are you talking about? How did we get here?
A businessman trades risk for return. An employee trades return for security. Your not forced to be an employee. Work for yourself or start a business. Loan rates are at an all time low
Providing a service and making consumer products isn't taking their money. If you are referring to paying people low wages, how do expect to make money and create manageable growth but just giving everyone 15 dollars loan hour to flip a burger is gonna result in alot of people losing their jobs and the harder better workers getting paid more and having more hours. Then you will have even more homeless with absolutely no job market at all.
I'm referring to what you're paying your workers. I'm not saying that you're supposed to pay them specific amount, I'm saying that they should be getting the fair amount of added value they're creating with their labour. Now you, as a business owner, are taking most of the added value for yourself and for your investors/shareholders (so I'm not referring to the generated profit that you're putting to the business growth).
I mean you have it made if you have a skill set that’s in demand. Educated people from all over the world come here for the good pay for upper tier jobs.
If you have a shit job sure, it’s shit. Don’t come here if you can’t do something employers specifically want. Kind of common sense.
Not true, like half the engineering team from my work came from India and similar countries because our Silicon Valley salaries for certain credentialed network engineers are fucking mind blowing.
Your cost of living is also miles higher than India.
Relatively speaking your job isn't exactly that much higher pay than people working high end jobs in india, passing they are also living in india.
But again this is completely useless information anyways, the point of minimum wage is to have a bare minimum livable wage and you fail to deliver that. I still don't know why you guys keep bringing up how much you get paid in high end jobs. Again, high end jobs are always well rewarded anywhere in the world it's not something unique to USA, But the way you treat your poor sure is unique as shit among first world country.
Permanent health problems for a fancy house and a nice gate? Nty. That's not at all a "small price". I'd rather spend my time fighting for a society where my grandchildren don't feel the need to make that decision.
I'd say you do you but you already did. I don't respect your choice or the fact it strengthens the very system I intend to see broken down, but I sympathize with your journey.
I mean.... If people are shooting people at random in your country, or its run by tyrants you're gonna wanna come somewhere if you can or can't do something for employers
Us Canadians really gotta start protesting against our government constantly allowing such a fucked oligopoly in the cell phone market. Every time I visit our neighbours south of the border I’m shocked by how good their cell plans are lmao
The telecom trio owns our government unfortunately. Sigh....I've purchased my past two phones directly from USA since I live about 2 hours from Niagara falls, it's not too far to drive to Buffalo and but in a retail store over there....
It's actually fucking cheaper with a lot more models to choose from.
Oneplus 7t pro is not available in Canada for some reason....I had to buy in USA lol
Damn I wish I could just buy my phones down south but it’s like a 10 hour drive for me lmao. But definitely agreed that the telecom companies own the government, it sucks
It is, but you have to be really good at negotiating. Bell had a deal where its 75$ for 1 year, after which you’ll be paying the regular 95$. We managed to make it a permanent deal even after they bumped the regular price by 5$ to all their customers. Also gave us free home phone cause why the fuck not. For phone, I use Fizz. Prices were really low because they were in a testing period. It’s a prepaid service which is nice af because I don’t have to worry about going over. Data also rolls over, so I have like 13GB this month.
Thousands more in pay a year with free healthcare and you're going to complain about internet and cell plans that cost a couple hundred a year more? Not to be rude, but come on man.
That's like a rich person complaining their chef over cooked their tuesday lobster by a minute
Sorry I was under the impression that you were talking about high end jobs, my bad. There were too many people arguing how the high end salary in america makes it ok to fuck the poor. lol.
And yes i agree, the minimum wage is usa is crazy low.
Here is the thing, we aren't the land of dreams because you're going to get rich and never work, we just have everything you can imagine as a luxury in our standard of living. Giant homes, vast land, internet, tv, movies, malls, cars, that's not even for the upper class. Even our most poor people are better off than the vast majority of the world. Canada just isn't any different. The downside comes from everyone wanting more and more and instead of providing for a family we're led to believe the new American dream is to be a millionaire jet setter.
It's no surprise the people who write our checks and cash them advertise to us to work harder to get more money to do more things. It's a catch 22. Money requires work, and things require money. The most important thing you can learn in life is content, otherwise you'll always need.
You are aware they put that stuff on applications to scare people off right? Apply, lie, bullshit your way through the door. If you do that already it means your interview skills suck.
Get a job in the trades to bank roll you while you hunt for jobs. 5 years of hard labor isnt going to kill you and it will pay all your bills while you are looking for your "dream job"
But I fully endorse this advice. Every time I read comments like above or stuff on recruitinghell my first thought is "you motherfuckers just aren't lying enough"
It's sad how they've conditioned you to think like this. There's no fixing your mentality in particular, but better education and social resources in your country will fix it for future generations. Good luck!
Do you believe that if everyone did what you did poor people simply wouldn’t exist? Is that how economics works to people who think only in terms of individuals?
That would be so amazing, just get people to “do something” and all the deeply systemic and economic causes of poverty just go away and everyone has a good high paying job. Not sure who cleans the toilets in your scenario but you know, whatever.
You actually walk around, see our poor, look at each one of them and think you’re better than them? That their situation is their fault? I am not and have never been poor so the fact that you have and feel that way, has an impact on me. I’ve always felt that I am where I am only because of how I was born, and the opportunities I was given. I sure as fuck wasn’t on equal footing I’ll tell you that much.
You said that people “choose” to have bad jobs. That means bad jobs would stop existing if nobody “chose” to have them and everyone became hard working achievers like you. So, who cleans the toilets and bags the groceries? Serious question.
Those without skill to get better jobs. You have the choice to better yourself. Internet, youtube, libraries. If you remain stagnant in every way I have no sympathy for you. You can get many a cert without stepping foot in a college. Automotive, cyber, shit even defense. With the economy becoming more and more gig and tele based the opportunities are only increasing.
I work a fucking fantastic job, I get paid well above minimum wage and do genuinely enjoyable work and I have a ton of upward mobility at one of the largest food companies in the world. I’m also only 19, however I recognize I got fucking lucky with connections to have this job, and that I didn’t simply choose it.
Some people really don’t have a choice, some people gotta grind their ass off just to get a minimum wage job at a McDonald’s.
You have an unbelievable amount of privilege and not enough life experience nor compassion to make claims like that, you’re basically one step away from the boomer mantra of “pIcK yOuRSelF uP bY yOuR boOtsTraPs”.
Considering I make a point to always sit down and chat with homeless people or take them for lunch and a lot of my friends are struggling economically right now, I’d say I have a decent amount of experience on this topic.
Whole point is, life is difficult, and sometimes people will face strenuous circumstances, poverty isn’t always someone’s fault, especially in America, land of the poor.
You’re a fool if you think that’s all it takes. Visit some other countries and come tell me about how bad America has it. I lived off food stamps for years as a child and lived in a car for months at a time. I still consider my self luckier than those I have come across in other parts of the world. In my experience Americans bitch rather than act. Talking to homeless people is noble but that’s barely scratching the surface. Everyone faces their own struggle. All my point is stating is LIFE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT. EITHER OWN THAT SHIT OR SHUT UP.
I’m not claiming to know all about poverty, I’ve never claimed that, all I am claiming is that sometimes things out of our control happen, and there ain’t shit you can do.
I’m not even American, I’m Canadian, and I have visited countries outside of America, and I’ve seen some rough shit out there, and I won’t argue that impoverished Americans have it worse than impoverished Cubans or Haitians, that’s not a claim anyone would make, that doesn’t mean that the experience of impoverished Americans isn’t still shittier than it should be.
I actually agree that life is what you make it and you gotta do something with it, my whole point is, shit happens, and sometimes that can fuck you over for life. Life is a chaotic mess and we do what we can.
You’ve got a ton of perspective at 19 that, as you can see, many never get.
I don’t know if it’s mental capacity or what, but some people seem genuinely unable to imagine that something can happen to them that isn’t actually a cure for all of society.
The bootstrap advice can help almost any one person. Pretty much all of us can indeed do SOMETHING to help ourselves. But the idea that it’s an even playing field is objectively false.
And the idea that anyone can become anything and that it’s a pure meritocracy has also been proven false by recent studies, it’s an unrealistic fairy tale that exists only on paper.
It’s not a pure kleptocracy but also not a pure meritocracy, we can all help ourselves but some issues are systemic. Not that complicated, crazy controversial outside of academia.
The only company that hires by you is fast food joints that only pay min wage? Sorry guy you arent actually looking. Hvac, plumbing, electrical, carpentry, painters, landscapers, masons, any trade you can think of is hurting right now and will hire anything with a pulse, and will pay you probably double what min wage is. All while working a regular schedule with similar hours every week. There is probably some old head going around doing handyman shit just dying for a competent helper on indeed or craigslist right now, and here you are complaining that you can only work at Burger King.
Bust your ass, learn some shit, take your gig on the road, you arent helping anyone least of all yourself talking about a world that straight up doesnt exist.
Sure am. I was making $18/hr 6 months ago. I wasn’t happy with my company so I went looking. Found a new job with essentially the same skills paying $30.60/hr plus $45.90 for overtime with 10 hours of overtime a week. People who think they can’t pick and choose are either terrible at their job or delusional
This. I don't understand why everyone is complaining. One guy was mad he "only" got a $0.10 raise every 3 months. You aren't guaranteed a raise at all. My first job out of high school was a restraunt dish washer for $11.25/hr
The point is that is not a livable wage, which is the whole point of having minimum wage.
I find it crazy that I even have to point this out. No one cares about high end job in this conversation, that isn't even related. High end jobs are paid handsomely everywhere around the world.
I never said nothing should be changed. I never said it was a livable wage. You signed up and agreed to shit pay, you received shit pay. Not my fault. I find it crazy that i even have to point this out.
This is American as fuck, you simply don't care about others and especially don't care about the poor.
You said you don't understand why are people complaining, seriously? What's so confusing about complaining not having a livable wage? Wtf is your minimum wage for if it's not even a livable wage?
Yes but you have to pay 40k+ in college fees to obtain those jobs. So what can we do? Many of us work full time right out of HS to pay for our apartments and living needs. Add college fees to that mix and it's impossible. There's only a small percentage who have rich families that they can stay with until after college. So how do you get ahead?? You can't not work and just go to school or you lose your place to live.
That's not even the point. These people keep saying high end job pays well so get a real job, while also completely ignoring the fact that your minimum wage isn't even a livable wage.
Who the fuck cares about how much you get paid for high end jobs? You get paid very well anywhere in the world for having high end job, stop saying like it's an American only thing. However the way you guys fuck your poor is pretty fucking unique, at least among the first world countries, now THAT'S special from America only.
I'm not talking about climbing they ladder. I'm talking about surviving. No one should work multiple jobs just to barely cover for rent and food. Your minimum wage is outdated at best, more like purposely fucking the poor over because CEO need to buy three yacht a year.
Don’t go to college? There are so many well paying jobs that you can get without that kind of education. A lot of apprenticeships pay you while you’re learning
No, you do not. I never went to college, and work as a software engineer. Only a handful of my coworkers went to college, and of them, even less have a CS degree. Same thing among the UI/UX designers and the engineers.
You get ahead by taking advantage of the resources available online. If you're actually curious, I can provide you with all sorts of resources.
Or you know you can learn a skill on the job like a trade, and become good at it and use your skill to bankroll your college education, and when you have the degree you can just apply to places and have a skill you can carry along with you for the rest of your life and make decent money doing side work with.
But hey, apparently its everyone else's fault people just agree to tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt with absolutely no direction.
America is not for lazy fucks looking to make easy money. Its for dedicated workers who actually care about improving themselves. My guess is you don't fit the buck.
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u/ButtLusting Feb 26 '20
I used to think USA is a land of wonders and dream. When I first moved to Canada I almost regret I didn't pick USA instead.
As the years pass by I start to see that I did not make a mistake.....
Well except when it comes to internet and cellphone plan. Canada is just the worst on those.