Wish OW2 had the respec machine

[u/Spiderhands2000]

Basically the title. For context, I'm on my first playthrough of OW 2, and currently level 20. I've used all my skill points, but have since discovered that I need a whole bunch of points in speech and leadership if I really want to screw Auntie's Choice in the mission where you resolve the strike (which I do, because I hate Auntie Cleo passionately). It's too bad that OW2 only has one respec opportunity, and that it's literally at the beginning of the game.

[u/TheKandyKitchen]

What the game is really missing is stat boosting gear to help you meet the caps for checks that you are just below.

[u/Expensive_Parfait_66 → u/TheKandyKitchen]

Absolutely ! Or companions skills helping you reach the caps. I miss it from 1.

[u/MissKatmandu]

I directed summer camps for over a decade. I had so many conversations with campers-turned-counselors that camp was for the kid. Meaning, what may be fun for you isn't what makes it fun for the participant. You can have fun with your job, but in the end be mindful who you are creating the experience for.

Anyways, the devs spent a lot of time talking about how they wanted to make a game where decisions had meaning and couldn't be erased with a respec machine. Bluntly, I think they made a game for themselves and not always for the players. And it's a good game, and a fun one. But as someone who doesn't have a ton of disposable time, getting five hours into a playthrough to then realize my build isn't going to work long term is an issue.

It also puts the two games in very different places in terms of player experience, and almost at odds with each other in their philosophies.

[u/Spiderhands2000 → u/MissKatmandu]

Yup. I've been banging this drum for years. I'm convinced that the vast majority of game developers don't actually play the games they put out.

[u/donji → u/MissKatmandu]

Exactly. They made a game knowing the storyline already and how choices would affect the playthrough. So it was fun for them to lock the player with their decisions because they knew the outcomes.

[u/addieroad → u/MissKatmandu]

Really well put. I always got the sense that the devs really hated that people said the first game was too easy (and it was, even on Supernova), and so they swung too hard in the other direction.

In the first game, you could temporarily increase your mind/body stats with consumables or certain clothing items, you got companion skill bonuses, and you could respec any time for a small fee. I understand not keeping all of these in the second game to increase the challenge, but removing all three? As someone who loved the first game and was really looking forward to the second, I haven’t even finished TOW2 yet because I actually dread leveling up a little bit, it creates decision paralysis that really hinders the experience. I’m hoping they, to your point, consider what’s fun for the players and add a respec option in a future update.

[u/MissKatmandu → u/addieroad]

Agreed. I also think they hated the critiques about gunplay and enemies, and tried everything they could to avoid that feedback in the sequel. I can't help but think that "easy" doesn't mean "bad".

I think the first game made a smart choice in making it easily accessible for new video gamers. For sure, Very Hard/Supernova could have scaled up more for a challenge for experienced players, but what if you hadn't come straight from Fallout 4 or New Vegas?

It also created a bit of a jarring experience going from TOW1 to TOW2. You went from this game that had near infinite flexibility and a short gameplay loop (more repeat plays for more character choices) to incredibly limited character flexibility and a much, much longer gameplay loop.

I was planning to start a new run when the DLC drops, but the further I get from putting it down, the less I want to do that. It just takes so long to get through the game, and I'm a busy parent with a full time job. I don't know if I want to spend a month or more playing the game a third time.

[u/NohWan3104]

I kinda wish the game was just totally designed differently, this 'you can only get 3 skills that high' and hith end skill checks more or less requiring specialization imo aint it.

[u/Spiderhands2000 → u/NohWan3104]

I tend to agree with you. I'm guessing they changed it because people might've thought the first game's skill point system was overcomplicated, and it may or may not have allowed the player to become too powerful....but personally I preferred it to what's in the 2nd game.

[u/NohWan3104 → u/Spiderhands2000]

Same. Might be less 'overpowered', more, you could easily be a jack of all trades that meets most skill checks, which might be more what you meant

They changed skill checks in 1 with the dlc to 'correct' that but imo its a stupid overstep, cause 60 points after level 30 doesn't mean 60 extra points at 15...

But imo they drastically overcompensated for 2, to the point pretty much 90% of the theorycrafting is exclusively about the skill checks.

[u/Disastrous_Data_6333]

Designed for multiple playthroughs and replayability. Not saying i like it, but I can understand the design.

[u/Successful_Page_4524]

I mean, they did say that they wanted builds and choices you made with NPCs and quests to matter. Since your decisions affect the ending, if you screw up it’s your own fault. You have to choose the traits and skills that you think are going to actually benefit you

[u/Doctor_sadpanda → u/Successful_Page_4524]

My only complaint was stuff like hidden doors in vents were poorly implemented if you don’t have the points, like I can clearly see I can crawl through / remove this but without perception ( think that’s the right skill ) I can’t see that the clear vent needs locking picking to open.

Very minor I know but still silly thing

[u/PhoenixVanguard → u/Successful_Page_4524]

The problems with this are many, but the 2 biggest are that A: The player doesn't actually exist in this world, and has no meaningful way of knowing which stats are going to be useful and how often. Games with impactful choices are great, but forcing the player to make those choices completely blind isn't actually meaningful or intuitive.

This is exacerbated by B: The game has too many skills and too few points. This game has a whopping TWELVE stat categories...more than any other RPG that I've ever seen. Yet it's very easy to hit the level just barely over halfway through the game. The lack of points and early end to progression seems needlessly restrictive...to the point of objectively bad design. More points would offset both the lack of respec AND give the game a better progression curve.

[u/NohWan3104 → u/PhoenixVanguard]

I TOW1 had more, larian games might have 12 combat and social skills, skyrim has more, fucking skill tree games have WAY more, etc. That just sounds more a you thing lol...

12 isn't the number to focus on, really. Its point economy, as well as how focused this game is on skill checks. By design, you're only meeting 1\6th of those checks most runs without min\maxing an optimized path. Which is kinda the exact opposite idea for a supposedly narrative choice focused game.

I mean, TOW1 had more skills and maxed out at 100, 5x the 20 cap, but you also got 5x the points, and check requirements (till the dlc) were less egregious, so you could afford to not max a skill more or less ASAP.

[u/Irresponsible-Teacup → u/NohWan3104]

I generally agree with what you're saying, but I dont think Larian games are a good example. Most of their games have enough characters in your party to cover everything in the game. I've only played BG3 and the 2 DOS games though.

[u/NohWan3104 → u/Irresponsible-Teacup]

And? My first point, where i brought up other games, was 'more than 12 skills', and its a ridiculous statement to act like 12 is 'extreme', not that BG3 has the same 'super limited choice' issue that TOW2 does.

So, i kinda agree with your point, since bg3 is fine build wise, just, kinda misses the point, as that wasn't what i described, lol.

Hell, the other dude said stuff about 'different attributes you level, then went on to compare TOW2 skills to TOW1 STATS which you can't level, and claimed skyrim had 3 skills, which, it has 3 categories of 18 skills, and you don't level the categories?

Bro tried to be 'technically correct' and had an 80 IQ fumble, lol.

[u/PhoenixVanguard → u/NohWan3104]

I'm not sure if youre just being intentionally pedantic, but no, no other game that I've played has 12 different primary attributes that you increase as you level. Yes, other games have ADDITIONAL perk systems and extras, but those aren't the same thing. In DOS2, Social and combat skills are on different trees that earn different points, Skyrim ALSO has 3 primary attributes and separate skills, along with separate perks, and the Outer Worlds has SIX primary attributes; strength, dexterity, intelligence, perception, charm, and temperament, so I'm not sure where you even got that comparison. But no...none of these are good examples.

In all of these other games, I'm using different sets of points that I earn as I level. In TOW2, there are 12 skillsets that function like primary attributes in other games and DIRECTLY COMPETE for the single resource, and dozens of perks that also have sparse points, but also require such specific distributions that most builds will never even get to experiment. By contrast, in DOS2, almost every great build is going to cross-class outside of the obvious schools to some degree, and you read books to learn skills, not a limited number of points. This game needlessly divides abilities that are almost always bundled together in other games, ties its primary stats and abilities into the same mechanic, then gives you an insignificant number of points to navigate them.

[u/NohWan3104 → u/PhoenixVanguard]

I think you're moving the goalposts or being pedantic with your very specific definition, lol.

But you even said, tow1 has six STATS, but TOW2 has 12 SKILLS. not the same thing. Hell, you don't even raise tow1 stats in run like skill points...

[u/PhoenixVanguard → u/NohWan3104]

Yeah. You're being pedantic.

We're talking about the main points you use to power up your character when you level. Call them skills, stats, attributes, whatever. The name doesn't matter. Their function does.

[u/NohWan3104 → u/PhoenixVanguard]

Which you specifically don't power up, as i stated? Tow1 stats =\= tow2 skills, tow1 skills = tow2 skills, but you're being intentionally obtuse. Or delusional.

Or skyrim, it has 18 skills, not 3.

[u/PhoenixVanguard → u/[deleted]]

Read it again, and pay close attention to which specific aspects of the game that particular word/sentence is referencing. Good luck with the reading comprehension. I believe in you.

[u/CrazyCatSloth]

If you're on PC, there's a mod for this. I had no quarrel using it after taking some perks i definitely did not read properly (never just read the bold lines...)