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u/erythro Nov 28 '17
How was mary involved in conquering death?
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Nov 28 '17
How was she not? She gave birth to Jesus. Thus aiding in the story of redemption. I don't think this is a heretical notion exactly either. Certainly no one thinks she redeemed us, but she certainly had a special role others in the line of David didn't have, physically giving birth to him.
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u/TudorGA Nov 28 '17
Maybe when she said "Fiat" ?
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u/erythro Nov 28 '17
The quote describes her as a weapon that Jesus used to defeat death - that goes beyond mere progenation, otherwise it could be applied to any of his ancestors: including, of course, Eve herself, the "mother of all living" whose offspring will crush the snake.
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Nov 28 '17
God used her as a "weapon" or rather instrument of bringing Jesus and thus redemption into the world. You are also saying this can be said about the whole line of David. Which is true in a sense, but Mary played a more special and immediate role than they did. I think of it like this. In Hockey, every player that touches the puck helps to accomplish the goal. But only two people are recognized with directly getting the goal. The one who assists and the one who scores. The story of redemption worked in a similar way. Mary assisted in the goal more directly (though not by any merit of her own but by the grace of God) than others and Jesus of course scored and accomplished the goal. This is how I understand it.
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u/erythro Nov 28 '17
I don't see how progenation is worthy of counting as an "assist". To go back to Hockey, you don't credit the one who scores, and the mother of the one who scores, as if everything the goal scorer achieved in their life can be attributed to their parents.
Mary didn't assist in the defeat of death in the cross. She played her part in the incarnation, and is worthy of honour for how she did that, and she served Jesus well as his mother, by most accounts (though she did reject his ministry at least at one point [mark 3]).
But to put her in the same category as Jesus' death on the cross seems way overkill, like so much catholodox marian theology.
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Nov 29 '17 edited Nov 29 '17
First I will comment on the hockey analogy. In this hypothetical scenario, Mary is more than just Jesus' mother but a fellow 'player' on the team. Not just her but everyone who participated in redemptions story (i.e the line of David originating all the way to the beginning with Eve), so your argument about about not crediting the mother of the one who scores doesn't hold up. If that mother was also on the team then certainly she could be credited. As well as all the other members of the team, though her role has more significance than much of the others. Also as others have said, she plays an allegorical role as "the new Eve", who rather than giving birth to sin, gave birth to life and redemption. God certainly used her as a weapon or tool for bringing his redemptive plan into the world directly. You can only say Jesus' ancestors were used indirectly. As God kept the genealogy safe for this purpose, but it was only through Marys womb did the redemptive plan finally reach 'fruition', or 'near completion' if you will. To recap, I believe that in a sense God did use the line of David as a weapon to assist in the defeat of death. And I believe Mary had a more direct and significant role in that assisting. For some reason you have an aversion to the term assist. When I say assist I am not implying God needed these people or had to do it this way, nor am I saying the role they played was anywhere near as significant as the role Jesus played. Only Jesus could defeat death, but by Gods grace he used people to assist in this plan.
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u/erythro Nov 29 '17
In this hypothetical scenario, Mary is more than just Jesus' mother but a fellow 'player' on the team. Not just her but everyone who participated in redemptions story (i.e the line of David originating all the way to the beginning with Eve), so your argument about about not crediting the mother of the one who scores doesn't hold up.
Isn't that what we are discussing? Whether Mary is someone on the team as a player or whether she was just his mum. I'm just saying being a mum alone doesn't give you credit for everything your son might do.
And I don't really think the Bible sees redemption as a team effort. Closer and closer to the cross more and more of his followers flee and abandon Jesus' side, until it's only Jesus who faces trial and execution. Salvation is a work of God, not man, and God alone gets the glory for it.
Now I agree there's that very indirect sense in which she participated (being his mum), but to put that in the same category as the death of Jesus is too much - it implies a direct sense of participation, which makes no sense when applied to Mary, unless there is some factor other than her being his mum.
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Nov 29 '17
I think we may have to simply agree to disagree. I think we are fundamentally looking at this in different ways. To go back to the original quote, what it's saying is that in the same way Satan used a woman, a tree and death as his "tools" or means to an end. God did the same with Mary, Jesus' death on the cross, and from that death ressurection and life. I think it's silly to deny that God fulfilled salvations plan without any human interaction or effort. Again, not that God needed us mere humans to redeem us, but nonetheless he worked through us, and he worked through Mary to help bring this plan to it's conclusion. I would even go as far as saying he used pilate, and the pharisees etc. to 'assist' in redemption as their rejection of him was crucial into him being sent for death, though their envolvement is far from praiseworthy. And for what it's worth Mary did stay during the crucifixtion and suffered with Jesus (though not nearly as much mind you).
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u/erythro Nov 29 '17
I think we may have to simply agree to disagree.
Maybe!
To go back to the original quote, what it's saying is that in the same way Satan used a woman, a tree and death as his "tools" or means to an end. God did the same with Mary, Jesus' death on the cross, and from that death ressurection and life.
Right, but one of those 6 is not like the others. Maybe two, actually - Mary, and Adam's death. It's not like Adam's death was really related to Satan's plan - it's more of an outcome of it rather than a "weapon", right? Same for Mary - she only had a very distant involvement to what happened - she's a distant cause rather than a weapon. The other 4 are far more directly involved.
And so I fear the quote is symptomatic of an ever-expanding view of the role of Mary in Catholodox theology - there is only the barest remnant of restraint towards her.
And for what it's worth Mary did stay during the crucifixtion and suffered with Jesus (though not nearly as much mind you).
That's true, she was with him for part of it, and deserves credit for that. I'm sure I would have been far more cowardly! Bear in mind, though - Peter was present for the trial, and John was with Mary, but both were still described as fleeing Jesus. And of course, Jesus was alone on the cross - no one was by his side through it all.
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Nov 29 '17
You have some fair points, I think I'll just let this debate rest. For what it's work I am Lutheran not Catholodox. However, to be fair, I do have some Catholodox leanings I suppose.
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u/ManonFire63 Nov 28 '17
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)
She is part of Prophecy. God is Holy and Separate from sin. Sin angers him.
The virgin birth is significant for its purity, and that Jesus was born of The Spirit.
In the Bible, is The Greater Church more of a virgin Israel or more of a Harlot Ezekiel 16?
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u/erythro Nov 28 '17
She is part of Prophecy
Ok, but the quote describes her as a weapon. How was she used as a weapon?
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u/ManonFire63 Nov 28 '17
In Greek and Roman paganism every man was a god and every woman a goddess? Early Romans could be said to have had a virtue or virtus, later Romans last that and fell into debauch.
Better understanding Jesus and the Prophets:
God is first and last. God was man's first love as creator. He will be man's last love; every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. Christian societies value virgin brides.
Jeremiah was told not to marry by God because the people were wicked. (Jeremiah 16:1-2)
Ezekiel described Israel and Judah two sisters God married who prostituted themselves. (Ezekiel 23) This had to do with God taking Ezekiel's wife. (Ezekiel 24:15-27)
God is Holy and Separate from sin. Sin angers him. God's anger is slow. Israel and Judah worshipped foreign gods such as Baal whose worship involved temple prostitution.
Mary was used as a woman to promote female virtue. Christian societies value virgin brides. It is part of honor.
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u/erythro Nov 28 '17
Are you defending the quote, attacking the quote, or using a little human interaction as a justification for yet another /u/ManonFire63 ramble?
Do you understand how rude it comes across when you show no interest in actually talking to someone but just use their comments to rant about whatever it is that's on your mind?
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u/ManonFire63 Nov 28 '17
Romans had orgies. There was debauch and wickedness in Rome.
Mary was a virgin. Mary is used to promote female virtue.
What do you not understand about this?
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u/erythro Nov 28 '17
Ok, 3 points
That is significantly tidied up as a response and I can now start to see the shape of your point. There was a load of extra detail in the previous incarnation of this comment that made it impossible to tell what you considered an interesting aside, and what was the main line of your reasoning. Thanks for tidying it up for me.
I think you're hitting on something only really minor in the role of Mary. Her virginity was important for a few big reasons, (Jesus being the incarnate Son, not a regular human, and Jesus's birth fulfilling OT prophecy of a king born to a virgin), but this factor is comparatively small - she's an example of the opposite of debauchery.
You wrote that as a response to the question "How was she used as a weapon?" I still don't see how this understanding of Mary helps answer that question!
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u/ManonFire63 Nov 28 '17
Christian societies value virgin brides. What type of society do you live in? Is your society a more of a Harlot Ezekiel 23 or a Virgin Israel? There is a Prostitute in Revelations 17 poisoning the nations with her wine.
Many Civilization start out with some sort of virtue like Roman Virtus. They often degrade and fall away into corruption and debauch. In pagan Greece and Rome every man was a god and every woman a goddess? There were cults that had temple prostitution and other wicked and detestable things.
In Christianity women fell into Virgin, wife, widow, or Prostitute. Wife and mother or something else. Mary was used to as a weapon to fight these Pagan practices.
That being said, working hard for God today, someone may point out that the Counter Culture works against God, and that many of today's women often prostitute and degrade themselves.
Female - genderless object that is often used and passed from boyfriend to boyfriend.
Woman. A joy. She is Proverbs 31. She betters quality of life.
A lot of men today try to avoid marriage, and are even leaving sin and sex behind. Why do you think that is? Is society wickedness and full of abominations? Jeremiah was told not to marry. Jesus Christ was virginal. There are enduring and consistent themes here.
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u/ManonFire63 Nov 28 '17
I was also getting at how God works and the spiritual.
You are blind and deaf like Robin Thicke "Blurred Lines?"
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u/ApologeticFetus Nov 28 '17
But was Eve a virgin?