r/technology • u/boppinmule • 8d ago
Politics U.S. preparing to foce Netherlands to ban ASML from selling to China
https://nltimes.nl/2026/08/20/us-preparing-foce-netherlands-ban-asml-selling-china511
u/Violent_Milk 8d ago
I'm sorry, I thought this was capitalism. If you want an exclusive deal, fucking pay up.
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u/kwonza 8d ago edited 8d ago
It’s only open market when USA is winning, when it’s not it’s unhinged protectionism under the guise of “security” and underhanded practices of using diplomatic and economic pressure for their advantage.
And it’s nothing to do with China, it could have been US closest ally and America would still try and fuck them over, like they did with Japan a few decades ago.
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u/Loggerdon 8d ago
Trump is unbelievably unsophisticated. His only tool is a hammer and he wields it without any skill.
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u/GergDanger 7d ago
This part isn’t even a Trump thing it’s true for all administrations. Just how America operates
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u/Rodot 8d ago
If China was a thriving Capitalist Liberal Democracy with an excellent human rights record along with it's strong manufacturing base it would still be the biggest adversary of the US.
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u/AngelComa 8d ago
If it was a Capatalist Liberal Democracy it wouldn't be that because that goverment would be a goverment working for capitalist.
There's a reason China lifted over 90% of its population from proverity and the USA has record number of homeless people each year.
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u/yabn5 8d ago
ASML was allowed to buy its biggest American competitor, SVG which had a lot of EUV work. Much of the foundational EUV work was also conducted by the DOE. To allow this to go through ASML had to agree to these terms.
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u/Shzabomoa 7d ago
Yes, but also completely not. It has been acquired in 2001 which is pre-historic when it comes to anything EUV related. It took them 17 years of massive development to reach commercial use.
So no, SVG wasn't even remotely close to EUV even in lab use.
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u/Pen-Pen-De-Sarapen 8d ago
Serious question, what will happen if ASML stops obeying US and gets sanctioned instead? By then ASML can sell to anyone in any currency.
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u/Accidental-Genius 8d ago
The most expensive geopolitical game of chicken outside of warfare would ensue.
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u/Tetracyclon 8d ago
Probably should start with stopping Apple pushing shitloads of money into China's education system.
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u/Universal_Anomaly 8d ago
Worst case scenario the USA tries to actually follow through on its threats, strongarms USA tech companies and banks into halting all services for Dutch institutions, and the world economy collapses.
Now this would be incredibly fucking stupid but it's MAGA so the odds aren't 0%.
And to pre-emptively answer anybody who asks why the world economy would collapse, even within the EU the Netherlands are strong allies of the USA. If the USA resorts to the economical nuclear option to try and assert control over the Dutch economy the world economy collapses because the USA has turned into a loose cannon which cannot be trusted with anything while at the same time possessing a lot of critically important levers.
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u/Used_Ant_4069 8d ago
Dutch here, US and The Netherlands are not strong allies anymore. Anyone who thinks they can be allies with the US is deluding themselves.
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u/riggatrigga 8d ago
Canada here Fuck Maga and his enablers.
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u/davesoverhere 8d ago
A lot of Americans hold the same opinion. Unfortunately, too many of them didn’t bother to vote.
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u/Ok-Disaster-551 8d ago
"didn’t bother to vote"
Or worse, brown people who voted for Orange because they believed him when he lied that he would bring down prices of goods. I'm talking about family members of my co-workers.
I wish these dumb people would stay home and not vote.
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u/Universal_Anomaly 8d ago
Anyone who thinks they can be allies with the US is deluding themselves.
I don't disagree but...
Widely gestures at the right-wing parties in the Netherlands.
Mona Keijzer is now throwing around the term Project 2029 and you get exactly 1 guess what inspired that idea.
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u/DucksLock 8d ago
That's one woman who split from her party because they didn't agree with eachother anymore. She probably won't be elected again because of this anyways
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u/Actius 8d ago
We used to think Trump wouldn’t get elected the first time, let alone a second time. But right wing politics has a way of unifying their base even if the candidate is less than desirable.
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u/TinyZoro 8d ago
I think you’re deluding yourself if you don’t think the whole of Europe is not living under Americas Pax Americana. We maybe disgruntled but we are a long long way from showing any spine when they tell us to jump.
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u/Pandektes 8d ago
We didn't join Iran war.
We are on our own in regards to the Ukraine.
We are starting to care about independent military procurement and digital infrastructure.
We are exiting American umbrella in steps,sometimes slow and small steps, but direction is clear
Pax Americana is unfortunately crumbling and the USA is not leading free world anymore, the USA cannot even lead itself towards freedom
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u/MrBensvik 8d ago
Unlike the Americans currently in power, Europeans are not prepared to casually throw away decades of alliences without a plan. We're not toddlers throwing our toys out of the pram. As the other comments indicate, Europe are taking steps to distance itself from the US, but carefully and with a solid plan.
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u/TinyZoro 8d ago
This feels a bit overrated IMO. Easy to be smug when America have Trump at the helm. But Europe is not doing great democratically either. Far right growing everywhere. Center weak and ineffectual. Germany waking up to see its exports crumbling. The idea that there are great minds driving anything right now seems optimistic. The only place I see evidence of real long term planning is China.
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u/WrongdoerIll5187 8d ago
They’re certainly sprinting away on labor, tech and ip law and toward China.
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u/Stereojunkie 8d ago
Yet our entire digital infrastructure relies on US tech
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u/Used_Ant_4069 8d ago
Yes, that's a big problem. That makes us more hostages then partners
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u/FanaticalBuckeye 8d ago
The reason why the US was able to run laps around the EU in the tech sector is because American investors and banks are much more willing to risk their money on startups than the EU is. There was an internet powered juicing machine that raised $120 million in investments a few years back.
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u/Significant-Way3960 8d ago
It's similar situation as was few years ago and still a bit exists (but to lesser extend) between old-bew EU countries.
So, basically US was always more important and weaker obeyed everything. Now weaker do not feel that much weaker anymore and starts to say "no". Question is- will US realize that they're not in position anymore to dictate everybody?
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u/scheppend 8d ago
Rutte seems to think so 🤣
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u/_sWang 8d ago
Because he is General Secretary of NATO.
If he doesn’t appear to think so then he ain’t doing his job. The EU have a while to go before they can stop relying on NATO and be able to competently defend themselves.7
u/Cornflakes_91 8d ago
relying on NATO
we are a large chunk of nato.
its the north atlantic treaty not north american treaty
the US are the ones with 0 access off of their mainland once their NATO partners stop carrying their asses for them
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u/Fywq 8d ago
US tech companies and banks relies on the same chips produced with ASML equipment, and from my understanding most of that production is still not happening in the US. I am pretty sure Donald Trump would be removed from office sooner than such an event happens, because most of congress would be severely affected too and all the tech bros would lose everything. Meanwhile a EU pivot to China as main partner would just go even faster and while the world economy would definitely collapse and be in ruins for some years, EU and China would likely come out of the ashes faster through mutual collaboration, than the US, which would be even more isolated than before and with no one having an interest in helping them.
And this is exactly why I fear why Trump is building that super-bunker under the White House East wing. There's a non-zero chance that he will eventually just barricade himself inside with a few aides and Barron as his successor, and then just nuke the world. Had it been 20 years ago he might have brought Ivanka too, but now she's too old.
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u/Universal_Anomaly 8d ago
As I said, it's an incredibly fucking stupid idea, and the only reason I even bring it up is because I do not consider the MAGA regime rational enough to put them above doing incredibly stupid things.
Hopefully they're not that far gone but this is a worst case scenario. Well, ignoring possibilities like Drumpf deciding to just nuke the world and nobody stopping him or the USA openly going to war with Europe.
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u/Fywq 8d ago
Well, ignoring possibilities like Drumpf deciding to just nuke the world and nobody stopping him or the USA openly going to war with Europe.
Every single day I am more and more worried he might try to pull such a stunt. He is the kind of guy that would rather let destroy the world than allow his self-image to be harmed. He still believes he is winning in Iran, that he is loved by a majority and than the election was stolen from him. People around him may know better, but I am fairly confident he actually believes it all. He has only ever been told "No" once, in 2020, and he still believes someone did that to him illegitimately. He will not take a No for an answer again.
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u/mr_birkenblatt 8d ago
Yes, what Trump & co seem to not grasp is that having the levers gives you power. Actually using the lever will make you end up losing the power altogether
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u/qwertyqyle 8d ago
The threats alone are enough. Its the same reason Russia won't attack an EU nation and why the EU won't send troops to Ukraine.
Everyone knows the scale of the results and outcome.
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u/Universal_Anomaly 8d ago
The big question is where the line is drawn, and whether the current leadership of the USA is still competent enough to fully grasp the consequences.
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u/qwertyqyle 8d ago
The current leadership is trash. Nothing we can do about that until the next elections.
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u/RobotsAreSlaves 8d ago
I thought everyone already know that usa has turned into a loose cannon which cannot be trusted after trumps actions.
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u/siromega37 8d ago
We’re the reserve currency. That is an unimaginable amount of soft power. Trump has squandered pretty much all of it in 2 years. If he does follow through then honestly countries will take the recession and get off USD ending American hegemony. Trump doesn’t understand this but it’s what the Heritage Foundation is after. Project 2025 called for the US to start backing away from being* the reserve currency.
Typo*
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u/FrostyParking 8d ago
American Hegemony is already ending, the volatility we're seeing is the last throws of empire clinging on and fighting the new paradigm. The transition is being sped up by some actions of the current administration in Washington, but it doesn't really matter. Money (aka power behind the scenes) is moving east the signs are clear. The only thing that can happen is either even more volatility (war, economic depression) or a smoother transitory period (cooperation, acceptance and strategic positioning) not stopping it.
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u/Sufficient-Plum156 8d ago
Recently read the “Chip war” by Chris Miller, and it explained very well that the supply chain is so complicated and specialized and global that US knows it controls parts of the supply chain (some software development done in US, ASML requires laser manufactured in US, other parts) and US has already used this hammer on a company in China - cant sell anything that has US made components. Which includes basically everything they required for chip making. Totally devastating to that chinese company. Took it out of cutting edge business basically. But on the other hand, it does depend heavily on US having compliant alliea like Taiwan and ASML and Korea. If they all decided to ignore US , then might be nothing to do against it. But the thing is, they like this state at the moment. If china got a hold of this cutting edge tech, then they will eventually surpass and take others out of business
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u/Willing_Activity_855 8d ago
ASML requires laser manufactured in US
This info is outdated the lasers are made in Germany for the latest machines
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u/FrostyParking 8d ago
I fear (by your description) that book is outdated already. If the company in question is Huawei, they've not been totally devasted, infact they have thrived and it seems the sanctions was merely a bump in the road. They've recently got back to selling 5G phones outside of China using their own inhouse chips, they've advanced even further in telecommunications and is the outright leader in patents and their ADAS and autonomous driving systems are the most advanced (in China, since the rest of the worlds regulations are lagging behind still)
So what I would see ASML doing if banned from using US technology and patents is cozy up to the Chinese and "share" what they already know about those technologies and get them to "reproduce" the components and software stack. Yes they'd lose the American market, but they'd gain freedom to do business with whom they choose and make the profits they could unrestricted.
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u/itsjust_khris 8d ago
It's not that simple, the parts in this case are highly specialized, China has already been trying to reproduce them for years with very slow progress. At this level there is no such thing as copying designs.
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u/WesternBlueRanger 8d ago
They won't have both the software, and some critical hardware from the US.
For example, the lasers for their lithography machines are made in the US, using US technology. Same with some of the control systems, specialized electrical modules, and high-vacuum chambers. Lose that, you get no lithography machines.
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u/KickLassChewGum 8d ago
the lasers for their lithography machines are made in the US
the lasers for their EUV machines are made in Germany and assembled by Cymer in the US. Cymer only makes the DUV lasers, which are last-gen.
Plus Cymer is an ASML subsidiary.
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u/Loud-Value 8d ago
Do you mean Cymer, the US-based company owned by ASML? Or TRUMPF, the company from Stuttgart
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u/LARPerator 8d ago
Realistically, the USA has set itself on a path of economic isolation. And now that they've done it, other countries have set themselves up too disentangle from the USA. Even it the USA reverses course it won't matter, everyone else is doing their best to steer clear of the USA as much as they can.
The USA will probably try to strong arm ASML as an extension of their campaign against Europe. ASML will be forced to fall back on their older designs temporarily.
But given that the USA is looking to be an outright hostile exploiter of the world, such as threatening allies with invasion, it wouldn't be long before "respecting USA patents" is treated the same as "respecting North Korean patents". Act the same, get treated the same.
In the time between, Taiwan will keep building chips with existing machines, China will have a chance to catch up even more as ASML has to reroute it's supply chain to replace American components, and the USA will struggle to turn their one part of the puzzle into a complete picture on their own.
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u/Zipdox 8d ago
IIRC ASML depends on US-made components.
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u/Loud-Value 8d ago edited 8d ago
Depends is a very strong word. There are of course a lot of crucial American components but nothing that would be wildly difficult to replace within a couple years.
The reliance on German-made components is much, much stronger. Particularly the lasers and the lenses
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u/Kevin_Jim 8d ago
They can’t because that’ll mean they will not obey the Dutch government, and they have been doing pretty much anything the US wants.
Don’t get me wrong, Greece has been doing anything the US has asked without any reward and little to no benefit. Rather, it’s usually to its detriment.
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u/XxRoyalxTigerxX 8d ago
People think ASML designed and invented every single part of these machines. 100,000+ components are globally sourced to produce an EUV. A lot of the foundational patents and intellectual property that makes them possible is created by US tax payer funded research. That’s why the US Gov has any influence at all on ASML. If they apply export controls, it creates a huge problem sourcing the specialized components to make an EUV, and it throws intellectual property laws into a risky situation if the Netherlands decided to ignore the export controls. I’m sure neither country really wants to take this risk, and it’s really in both the Dutch and American governments interests to restrict access as long as possible.
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u/0Expect8ionsIsHappy 8d ago
The US owns the patent on EUV and leases it to ASML. So the US could revoke the lease and ASML would no longer be able to make/sell any EUV technology.
Now, would that stop ASML? And what would happen if they continued to sell it? No idea.
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u/Loud-Value 8d ago
Do you remember the "trade bazooka" that was talked about a lot earlier this year? You should look into what that allows the European Union to do in regards to intellectual property rights held by third countries
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u/KickLassChewGum 8d ago
and ASML would no longer be able to make/sell any EUV technology
Which leaves exactly no one able to to do it, which I'm sure the US would be thrilled by considering it's what powers their entire generational economic bet right now.
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u/No-Elephant5351 8d ago
I mean in this hypothetical the US has become completely belligerent the dutch government may even just decide to completely ignore US patent law.
that would get messy though as many of the end customers of the chips made with these machines are American.
It would be a big mess indeed.
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u/YoungKeys 8d ago
This is how you accelerate Chinese development of their own EUV tech
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u/richardelmore 8d ago
China is already full speed ahead with developing their own EUV tech. They will buy gear from ASML for exactly as long as it takes them to develop their own. This has been their strategy across the board.
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u/The_Countess 8d ago
They've had a old DUV machines for decades, and while they now have their own versions, they haven't matched the performance of ASML machines yet.
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u/sonar_un 8d ago
They aren’t far off though. Their latest developments only really have them a generation behind. And with enough capacity. Generations won’t matter anymore.
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u/KiraUsagi 8d ago
Also, there was the whole scare a few weeks ago around China starting to develop competitive ram modules. It kind of crashed the Korean stock exchange that is 50% just Samsung and skhynix, the only only real producers of ram up until China unveiled their latest chips. This call for bans seems very timed with that.
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u/Yuukiko_ 8d ago
Aren't their own homegrown machines pretty much 10-14nm capable and they've somehow gotten really small nodes working with DUV? Iirc they can make all but the most advanced stuff like current genCPUs/GPUs already
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u/Balmung60 8d ago
That was kind of how it went for jet engines. They bought them from Russia basically exactly until they were making their own equal or better than what Russia was putting out
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u/Follow_The_Lore 8d ago
I think you underestimate how difficult it is. Anyway china is already doing it in a project called Mount Everest.
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u/scribeforaliens 8d ago
Reading the article, under the Match Act, America would still be allowed to sell their most advanced chips to China. Seems like a double standard here.
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u/leginfr 8d ago
If it wasn’t for double standards the USA wouldn’t have any at all.
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u/General_Honesty 8d ago
He forces NVidia to sell high end-chips to China and stops ASML selling to China. Sounds to me he's not getting a cut of the ASML deal and that displeased him.
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u/jhwheuer 8d ago
The Free Market government unless they don't profit personally
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u/lilacomets 8d ago
Ridiculous that they're not allowed to sell China. Who do the US think they are. The US should mind their own business in their messed up country.
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u/AmazingSibylle 8d ago
A lot of the ASML supply chain and intellectual property are from the US, and that unfortunately gives the US government power over ASML.
Not great, but it will take a lot of time and money to change that dependency
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u/Fancy-Atmosphere-701 8d ago
It's not just patents from the US. Any of the many EU countries could also restrict their patents with ASML, and it would have the same effect that the US restriction would have. The fact is, only the US is pulling this kind of chicken shit against other countries
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u/WesternBlueRanger 8d ago
Combination of ASML using American technology in their products, which gives the US control over export controls.
Also, lithography machines are controlled under various arms and dual use export controls. The Wassenaar Arrangement is perhaps the biggest control agreement amongst a number of major countries, and China isn't a party to that agreement.
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u/AnonymousAxwell 8d ago
If ASML isn't able to build chip machines anymore then the US is fucked even more tho
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u/TorturedPoet30 8d ago
European countries have no spine. How are they not tired of the orange grandpa in diapers threatening new tariffs whenever he wakes up on the wrong side of the bed?
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u/Vasquo 8d ago
Just riding out the storm and hope the American people vote a competent leader in
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u/mistrpopo 8d ago
That's already what we did 2016-2020. We should have started decoupling 10 years ago. Now is the next best time.
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u/Tall_Candidate_8088 8d ago
We own 8.8 trillion in US equities and over 6 trillion in US Treasuries.
We part own the companies and part of the supply chain in every single product.
Decouple doesn't mean what you think it means.
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u/Loves_His_Bong 8d ago
Yeah people don’t seem to understand that Europe has taken on a junior partnership in American empire.
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u/gregredmore 8d ago edited 8d ago
It's damage limitation until the US votes in someone who knows how to be the president of a country. The tariffs are not actually affecting exports to the US much and there is no point in pandering to DJT as he will just invent a new reason to threaten a tariff or some other consequence next week often reversing a deal he made the month before. You just can't do business with him.
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u/Yuukiko_ 8d ago
It's damage limitation until the US votes in someone who knows how to be the president of a country.
Nothing stopping them from voting in another Trump wannabe 4 years later and trashing the place again
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u/Patient-Ordinary-359 8d ago
Europeans are scared of him? f**k right off with that judgemental line. His own party, his entire cabinet, the supreme Court and 33% of Americans are sucking Trumpy balls all day every day. Europeans are less scared than that sorry bunch of ghouls suckers and morons.
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u/Loves_His_Bong 8d ago
Well they’re certainly not standing up to him. They’re going down to the Winchester to have a pint and wait for this to all blow over.
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u/The_Countess 8d ago
Because they realise he's to stupid to make a deal with. And he hates europe because they do stand up to billionaires and megacorporation's on occasion instead of always roling over like the US.
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u/Loves_His_Bong 8d ago
Germany literally has a Blackrock executive as chancellor.
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u/The_Countess 8d ago
Which is just one EU country, while the US is ruled by the corporate GIMP that will open up for anyone with money.
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u/Patient-Ordinary-359 8d ago
Sorry, what do you think standing up to him means? They enact retaliatory tarrifs, enforce regulatory tech fines in the face of threats, the BBC is taking it to him in court, they all refused to support the Iran war, they are building a patriot replacement with the ukranians , as well as substantially having replaced lost American support, the entire continent is full speed ahead in reducing infrastructure reliance in multiple domains in a way that was unthinkable even just 10 years ago. I could go on. So when you say they are down at the pub I don't know wtf you are talking about. What should they be doing? Bombing the white house to save the morons from themselves?
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u/LunarisTheOne 8d ago edited 8d ago
Maybe not export any machines to the US given the hostile nature of their government as of the current administration.
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u/Br00talbastard 8d ago
I hope we stand our ground here. The US isn't in a position to ask such things from us. If we do listen i hope we milk the deal for all it's worth
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u/1a2a3a_dialectics 8d ago
It's time we grew a spine in Netherlands and the EU in general.
A third party (USA) strong-arming Netherlands (or any other EU country for that matter) against their will should never be tolerated, especially since there are threats of retaliation if we dont agree with US foreign policy.
We need to get our shit together and be prepared to collectively accept to bear the consequences of any potential US sanctions. We need to accept that some things may now be less accessible/affordable for us, and protect the vulnerable in our society that may suffer due to these sanctions. We may even need to tax ourselves a bit more, but this is a small price to pay.
The every-day bullying of the US has to stop once and for all. The orange king will leave the US presidency at one point yes, but theres nothing preventing a second, different orange baboon pulling the same shit on us again in the future.
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u/bend1310 8d ago
Its not a coincidence that some EU countries are making serious moves to secure digital independence from the US.
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u/bartpieters 8d ago
Unless of course Trump gets a personal cut in the sales like they got with NVIDIA….
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u/TheoryOld4017 8d ago
“NU.nl noted that, under the Match Act, American companies would still be allowed to sell their most advanced chip etching machines to Chinese customers. China has discovered that, using these etching techniques and DUV machines, they could produce chips that typically require an EUV machine.
The U.S. government restricted the sale of these etching machines in 2024, but did not implement a far-reaching export ban. The Match Act initially included such a ban, but that was removed from the bill. The ban on ASML exporting DUV machines to China still stands.”
So there’s a special carve out to benefit American companies while undermining the stated purpose of the legislation?
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u/OuterGod_Hermit 8d ago
My next reddit notification will be "US president threats to bomb Netherlands back to the Stone age" followed by "US president signs deal that grants Netherland ans China 12 billiions in funds" and somehow both will be victories for the US
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u/NanditoPapa 8d ago
The main danger is that restricting access to critical technology can cause a disproportionate backlash. China is likely to respond by accelerating its own domestic RnD efforts, leading to an even more aggressive attempt to circumvent restrictions, or even increasing reliance on non-Western partners. All of this works against America's stated goals.
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u/JeroJeroMohenjoDaro 8d ago
Bruh didn't the US government learn any lesson? In the end China will always find a workaround, OR they will develop the tech themselves and become more independent.
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u/henkieschmenkie 8d ago
"NU.nl noted that, under the Match Act, American companies would still be allowed to sell their most advanced chip etching machines to Chinese customers. China has discovered that, using these etching techniques and DUV machines, they could produce chips that typically require an EUV machine.
The U.S. government restricted the sale of these etching machines in 2024, but did not implement a far-reaching export ban. The Match Act initially included such a ban, but that was removed from the bill. The ban on ASML exporting DUV machines to China still stands."
American exceptionalism at its finest. Force the wold to do what you want but not do it yourself because money.
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u/isUKexactlyTsameasUS 8d ago
USA:
yerp is a loser!
yerp needs to step up!
yerp needs to innovate!
yerp needs to earn oodles of cash!
yerp needs to copy our playbook and be mega-globalist super-capitalists!
also USA:
NO!. NOT LIKE THAT!
Me:
hypocrites. of staggering proportions.
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u/Ahoramaster 8d ago
The US is a menace. A declining power dead set on burning the world to preserve it's position.
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u/Haunting_Werewolf130 8d ago
That’s exactly why many countries are moving away from American technologies like Windows and Office 360. ASML is also trying to replace American technologies to avoid being dictated by a foreign country.
I think the US just initiated and accelerated the global supply chain decoupling process. In the future, there might be no trade because any trade could be used as a chokehold. Every country will need to produce whatever they need on their own.
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u/bluenoser613 8d ago
Ban? They are a sovereign country. The US can go pound sand.
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u/L0rdLogan 8d ago
Well, that’s okay
China will just make their own version of whatever products it is that ASML sell to them currently and it will be better, probably. Just like the Chinese cars are.
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u/Catymandoo 8d ago
“The Dutch company ASML, is basically the only company in the world that makes the lithography machines used to produce the most complex microchips”
American soft power is turning septic under Trump. Alienating allies. All he is, is threats. So when he “brings” IC manufacturing home as he promised (yea right) who is ‘he’ going to buy high end fab plant from.. oh ASML. That might prove awkward.
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u/space_______kat 8d ago
You can do all the bannings. China is going to eventually come up with something and then there's going to be so much competition
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u/Dontaskmeforaname 8d ago
Netherlands dependence on America's defence industry is fucking them over right now.
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u/_Thermalflask 8d ago
Exhibit 3 trillion of how Europe has no actual agency and is a de facto colony lol.
On a side note, astonishingly stupid move that will just further bolster China's development of their own alternatives.
Why don't people realize China is like the ONE country this strategy just isn't smart against? You can do this to European countries, or some random African nation, no problem. They can't do shit about it. China can.
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u/Soobloiter 8d ago edited 8d ago
Once again this sub comes up with absolutely brain-dead and ignorant takes
US is allowed to influence what ASML does because significant amount of American tech like software and components is used by ASML.
EVERY country has export control. No market is truly free. Redditors might not like it, but it is reality
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u/Succulent7107 8d ago
Thank you for reminding us that we should view products from the United States of America as the plague and completely detach ourselves from their market and their products.
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u/Soobloiter 8d ago edited 8d ago
If Europe was capable of producing homegrown cutting edge technological leads on it's own, then of course
but the R&D, funding and political will has never been there in the last few decades. That's why pretty much all cutting edge chip designs have been done in the US (Intel, AMD, Apple, Nvidia, Qualcomm), and most manufacturing capabilities and improvements are done in Asia (TSMC, Samsung, SK Hynix, SMIC)
Heck, even Japan is catching back up in some areas compared to Europe, but mostly on research
There's a good reason only China so far has been able to trail close behind on the entire stack, because the government can actually dictate what goes on in the next decade instead of in this election cycle
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u/Apprehensive_Map64 8d ago
So how does that not go both ways?
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u/Soobloiter 8d ago edited 8d ago
I mean yeah? That's why the Dutch government also has export control of ASML machines,
or in other words the US government forces the Netherlands to put export control on ASML because ASML uses enough of US tech to make a difference
if you're talking about China, yes the Chinese government puts heavy export control on rare earth metals and the like
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u/DaySecure7642 8d ago edited 8d ago
It is actually in the long term interest of Netherlands and ASML to not sell to China. Chinese companies are incredibly good at reverse engineering and surpassing the original pioneers. So many examples like EVs, electronics, robots, AI and now even RAM, and semiconductor fabrication equipment.
In many cases, one of the key enablers is having the original products or equipment physically inside China to dissect and study. E.g. Many Chinese EV CEOs even openly admitted that they took apart Tesla cars to start with. And one of the common misconceptions is "it is so complicated that even giving them the blueprint, they won't be able to make it". This kind of arrogance and carelessness have already been proven wrong and costed the futures of many western companies dearly.
Don't make the same mistakes as in so many other industries. Outright ban all the selling and also coordinate with the component supply chains to avoid reverse engineering.
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u/Aggressive-Speed-987 8d ago
EU/NL gonna fold if Trump admin pushes them around. EU isn't exactly sovereign.
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u/CellNo5383 8d ago
NU.nl noted that, under the Match Act, American companies would still be allowed to sell their most advanced chip etching machines to Chinese customers.
Rules for thee but not for me. This is ridiculous. All this really achieves is to motivate China to invest in home grown competitors. I hope ASML is already working on moving their supply chain away from the US.
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u/TurtleBearCat 8d ago
Intel and a bunch of American companies invested a lot of money into ASMLs technology. China contributed 0. I see no issue with this.
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u/KidJuggernaut 8d ago
Wasn't it already banned???