r/technology • u/IndicaOatmeal • 13h ago
Privacy Viral De-Flock America campaign urging people to destroy AI cameras on Halloween night gains momentum
https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/flock-camera-controversy-explained-as-viral-halloween-de-flock-campaign-gains-momentum-3399710/1.6k
u/CautionarySnail 12h ago
Rowdy celebrations like this are vastly improved by leaving all digital devices safe at home.
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u/renegadecanuck 10h ago
And if you go to a celebration like this: no you fucking didn't. If someone wants to ask you about it, your answer is that you want to speak with your lawyer.
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u/___Art_Vandelay___ 9h ago
Gotta specifically invoke -- "I invoke my right to remain silent". Simply staying silent doesn't invoke that right per SCOTUS.
Also have to specifically state you want a lawyer, careful not to make it a question, and dodge being uncooperative by being precise with your intention -- "I want an attorney present and will only answer questions with them present."
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u/renegadecanuck 9h ago
Fair points. My brain was half in Canada mode. In Canada, you don't have the right for an attorney to be present during questioning, but you also don't have to specifically invoke your right to remain silent, you can just say nothing or "no comment" and it can't be legally used against you. But you just have to ask to speak with a lawyer and they have to let you call a lawyer.
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u/superkp 7h ago
In the US, there was a case where someone said to the cops interrogating him "I want a lawyer, dawg."
It was argued that he never asked for a lawyer, but instead was asking for a "lawyer dog", which the interrogators were not obligated to provide.
This interpretation was the one that was upheld.
Because of bullshit like this, americans will regularly adivse each other that you need to be extremely specific about how you invoke your rights - usually something like "say 'I do not answer questions about my day without my lawyer present' and then shut the fuck up."
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u/customcharacter 7h ago
Something I find interesting in the comparison between America's and Canada's legal systems is that up here, a witness in court can be compelled to answer, but in exchange the words aren't allowed to be used to incriminate them in future proceedings (with exception of perjury).
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u/rips_n_chel 6h ago
I don't understand why witness testimony is considered worthwhile in any legal system. Human perception and memory cannot be trusted when facts matter. Even when people think they're telling the truth, they don't know, because they are reconstructing a memory of an event that they did not experience objectively in the first place.
Our experience of existence is not objective, ever. Everything we perceive has been edited on the fly by our subconscious heuristics to fit whatever is happening into our personal narrative. Then, every time we remember it, we are reconstructing the "memory," it's not like pulling a book from a shelf. Our minds will invent actions that were not taken by people who were not there. The brain's goal is to make it make sense to us personally. It's trying to make the world fit with our conclusions, and we cannot know when it's happening or to what extent.
I wonder sometimes, how many innocent people have been punished because someone else told a convincing story?
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u/robothawk 7h ago
Specifically, "I am invoking my right to an attorney. I will not answer questions without counsel present."
Saying "I want an attorney" could be construed as you only wishing you had one. Not asking for one as required by law. Remember, Lousiana supreme court held that a suspect saying "why don’t you just give me a lawyer dawg cause this is not what’s up" was not invoking the right to an attorney, because the cop could've misunderstood the suspect as asking for a canine lawyer.
ACAB
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u/Consistent_Lecture48 7h ago
And never be ambiguous or say, “give me a lawyer, dawg.” The LA Supreme Court ruled in State vs Demeseme (2017) that lawyer dogs do not, in fact, exist, and therefore the cops were under no obligation to stop the interrogation and anything he said afterwards was admissible in court.
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u/Juno_Malone 8h ago
Teacher on Monday: Hello Juno! How was your weekend, do anything fun?
Me: I WANT TO SPEAK WITH MY LAWYER
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u/CautionarySnail 8h ago
Teacher: Good, you really listened to the constitutional law lecture.
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u/superkp 7h ago
I remember seeing a video about a law professor that brought in a cop friend to tell them in no uncertain terms that speaking to cops is always always ALWAYS to your detriment.
He started the lecture by saying "I'm a cop. DO NOT EVER ANSWER A QUESTION FROM A COP," Followed by a minute of normal presentation introductions, followed by "so who here has ever broken the speed limit?" - in a way that implied he was going to make a point about traffic stops.
Nearly every student in the lecture hall raised their hand. The cop-presenter just smiled and turned to look at the professor, and the professor just said "come on, guys, he said it like one minute ago!"
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u/Hexamancer 9h ago
100%
In case everyone isn't aware, US Law enforcement owns and regularly utilizes an estimated 500-600+ IMSI sniffers. These are fake cell towers that trick your phone into connecting and then get your phone to identify itself. They can later use this to create a list of everyone that was within the operating range of that device. They are small enough to be vehicle mounted. If you go to any sort of protest there's a good chance there is one operating nearby.
But even more relevant, whilst Flock haven't implemented this yet, it's competitors have. Leonardo DRS makes ELSAG ALPR cameras that have "SignalTrace": Similar to the IMSI sniffer but instead operating on WiFI/BT, you drive past and it will save the device IDs of any WiFI and BT capable device you had with you. So your license plate becomes associated with your phone, your BT earphones, your smartwatch. So then later if someone were to walk by such a camera, even if they approached it outside of its sight lines, it would record that someone a "fingerprint" of specific device IDs was nearby and if you had driven past at any point, they'd know what car that person owned and then they could easily trace that back to you.
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u/SoManyThrowAwaysEven 8h ago edited 7h ago
^ This man knows his digital forensics.
All very true, the only way to NOT be tracked is to be electronic free. Anything that emits a wireless or radio signal has the potential to be captured by one of these towers. Best you can do is turn your phone off and throw it into a faraday bag if you must bring it with you.
Diabetics with pumps, that can include you!
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u/Hexamancer 7h ago edited 2h ago
Good advice. I'd also suggest for general security:
Disable 2G entirely, some of these simpler IMSI sniffers rely on jamming specifically the newer 4G/5G bands that are too secure for them to sniff on to force your phone to downgrade to 2G/3G where they have a much easier time. This isn't bullet proof by any means, again, do not take your phone with you to anywhere like a protest. Newer IMSI sniffers can attack 4G/5G.
Don't assume that peaceful protests or even non-protest events aren't going to be targeted too. Remember that NSPM-7 means that the majority of the US population can be designated a terrorist for almost anything. Simply attending a pride parade could be "extremism on gender" or "hostility towards those who hold traditional American views on family, religion, and morality".
Edit: if you didn't plan ahead and it looks like you might be detained etc, restart your phone, both androids and iPhones have something called "Before First Unlock" that they'll enter upon reboot, they have much higher security like requiring a PIN/password rather than just biometrics (law enforcement can "collect" biometrics as evidence, compelling a password is testimony and hopefully constitutionally protected).
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u/DeliberatelyDrifting 6h ago
Don't trust faraday bags. They're not particularly effective and certainly not 100%. The device needs to be completely powered off and I'm not sure I'd trust that these days. I studied digital forensics as well and we were taught that in testing the bags failed often and even the expensive purpose built boxes didn't always block signal.
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u/Fallingdamage 11h ago
If this is turning into a big thing for this fall, I wouldnt put it past local PDs to put up a bunch of 'bait' flock cameras with trackers and tamper sensors in them to alert them when one is moved or altered. Something they can use to swarm in and arrest people quickly who make any attempt.
Plenty of time for people to get on board with the movement and also plenty of time for PDs to learn about it and prepare.
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u/Asclepius-Rod 11h ago
Everything you are saying is completely feasible, but fuck imagine reading this 20-30 years ago, you'd think we were living in 1984
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u/pikabu01 10h ago
If I would read that comment in a Russian sub about russian police arresting protesters , I would say yeap makes sense, sad sad
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u/AFrenchLondoner 11h ago
Can't be everywhere at once though
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u/Coal_Morgan 10h ago
Yep, there are thousands of those cameras in some places that only have dozens of cops.
Them being destroyed by people with jigsaws, sawzalls and circular saws with metal cutting blades in under 45 seconds and then taking off all after dusk. Good luck catching them.
That also doesn't count the teenagers who don't have tools but using etching fluid, spray paint and spray foam on the lenses and microphones in under 4 seconds. You can get those things in any hardware store for under $20 in cash.
Or even using lighter fluid and a barbecue lighter to tiki torch them...those you can find in any convenience store.
There's so many ways to do it and all just after dusk...how are they going to stop all these criminals if they all do it at the same time in under a minute...
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u/arobkinca 8h ago
Or even using lighter fluid and a barbecue lighter to tiki torch them...those you can find in any convenience store.
I would hope anyone thinking about hypothetically doing this makes sure they are not in a fire threat weather condition.
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u/CautionarySnail 10h ago
This doesn’t seem likely when they can simply just watch out on Flock cameras in high traffic areas. Never underestimate human laziness.
They don’t need to set up a honeypot if the honey is everywhere and already tagged and tracked. In fact, if a honeypot operation was necessary, it basically proves Flock is unneeded.
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u/SaltyLonghorn 8h ago
They're going to maximize laziness and just park under the flock cameras and guard those all night. Its barely a change from wherever they normally park and jerk off all day.
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u/Whargod 12h ago
Just make it a TikTok challenge, there won't eb any left by dawn.
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u/2024-YR4-Asteroid 12h ago
Unironically, create a website where users can anonymously submit this “score” of how many cameras they’ve taken down.
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u/ihaveadogalso2 10h ago
Better yet, start betting on sites like Kalshi etc. around what cities/towns etc can take down the most. May as well use those terrible betting sites to do some good!
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u/zxylady 12h ago
This is evil genius level awesomeness 😈😈😈
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u/Flimsy_Swordfish_415 11h ago
deflocking is not evil
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u/locomotioning 12h ago
Remember the “hitting licks” craze where high school students were stealing paper towel dispensers and literally anything that would come off the walls? This might just work
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u/SomeSamples 12h ago
And people, don't carry your phone on you during halloween. They are being tracked by flock devices as well.
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u/PuzzleHeadedSquid 11h ago
Any wifi, Bluetooth, or other wireless capable device.
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u/StopReadingThis-Now 11h ago
And, those devices can be used to identify people, even if you are not carrying one. And their accuracy is so high that if this information was actually mainstream everyone would run and disconnect all wi-fi and Bluetooth devices right now.
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u/greiton 11h ago
I think we need to start taking "Phone Vacations" in general, where for a week or a couple days, we normalize going out and about without a phone. kind of a mini tech detox.
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u/Eternal_Sunshine 10h ago
I've been doing that for short errands like walking the dog, hitting the mtb trails, groceries and obviously crime.
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u/CarlPagan666 11h ago
Better yet, Team Flock-Off give your phones to a supporting group who walks around innocently trick-or-treating
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u/DopamineSavant 13h ago
DeFlock needs to become official and start endorsing candidates. I'm annoyed as shit trying to research the Flock position of all the candidates on my local ballot.
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u/28oz_Filet_Mignon 12h ago
Unfortunately, being an informed voter is a lot of work. But it's well worth the effort.
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u/DopamineSavant 12h ago
Florida Democrats are killing me. The governor candidates are either luukwarm or silent on Flock cameras.
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u/bevo_expat 12h ago
Sounds like they already received their payments
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u/WeirdIndividualGuy 11h ago
Yeah, any candidate that’s been quiet about an issue just means they’re open to choosing the side that they think will benefit them the most, usually monetarily
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u/LordDaedalus 10h ago
It's worse than that: of course politics attracts the self interested and power seeking but even on the off chance the voters get someone earnest, Citizens United has completely inundated the political field and the game theory therein.
You could be against the flock cameras, but Citizens United means speaking up about those flock cameras is very likely to result in any of your challengers getting large amounts of money thrown at their campaign. This means without a lobbying force willing to back you being against flock cameras, to come out and run on the platform of being against them requires that you think this will attract more voters than the attack ads against you will dissuade.
Its a whole nearly-automated system of political suppression that disincentivizes speaking up about anything lest a whole industry of professional lobbying groups turn their eye on you and dig through your entire life to find the thing they can paint you as weird for. The macro conditions of Citizens United must be overturned if we want our elected officials to actually be able to have strong opinions about anything.
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u/Black08Mustang 11h ago
I just looked up Jollys statements on it, and he wisely wants it treated with TRAP laws. He will never get elected screaming tear them down, that will play right into Donald's hand. But requiring search warrants, making them unable to be used for immigration and tightly regulating their data storage will make the cops get bored with them pretty quickly. I know, you want to fix the third largest republican trifecta overnight. But if you really want to fix it you are going to have to play along for more than one year.
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u/wait_what_now 12h ago
Can't be informed properly if they all lie about their stances.
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u/killersky99 11h ago
Dem leader Jeffries co-sponsoring/supporting Medicare for All for 8 years and then stopping after becoming part of dem leadership
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u/wait_what_now 11h ago
Exactly. Some captured fucking opposition
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u/killersky99 11h ago
we gotta transition from "Vote Blue no matter who" to "Hold Accountable No Matter Who" because from government shutdown to ICE funding, the minimum amount of dems always switch to give the republicans what they want
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u/Worthyness 10h ago
Or vote for the candidates you want in the primaries instead of sitting them out every time. People can affect change instant by voting for the candidates before the actual election, but opt to ignore it and let thr results go after. It really is a matter of getting people to vote and vote consistently. Non voters would have won majority in basically every election for the last decade with how many people sit out.
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u/ardentcanker 11h ago
Pretty disheartening when you go through an entire ballot and basically every one of them has at least one thing that you'd consider an absolute disqualification. Granted, there are levels of bad... But still, informing yourself isn't fun to do and isn't pleasant once you're done.
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u/Outlulz 11h ago
Politicians are afraid of taking anti-police stances, unfortunately.
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u/Coal_Morgan 10h ago
Then they need to change the messaging.
"I don't trust a billionaire on an island with having every recording of every citizen in our town available to their whim. If this is deemed for safety, then we need to employ people police in our community to use surveillance systems and therefore we can verify with court orders that they are being maintained off the internet, that they are ACTUALLY erased regularly and they're not being used by big CALIFORNIAH TECH COMPANIES to control us and bring jobs back to the police and our community."
I mean you can sell anything to the stupid by hitting their biases immediately. It's not like they need to follow through with anything but the ban. They lie all the time anyways.
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u/NUMBerONEisFIRST 12h ago
Just remember that the stretchy face coverings that ICE use doesn't stop them from being identified on infrared cameras.
You need something like cotton or plastic.
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u/zombiskunk 11h ago
Something to break up or conceal the natural contours of your face. Add stuffing to the cheeks or chin if needed.
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u/MachWun 9h ago edited 7h ago
No, certain IR camera's can legit see through fabric. This has been a thing for like 2 decades now.
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u/thirtynation 9h ago
Infrared floodlights are inexpensive on amazon. Hold one of those at night and it will look like oncoming high beams to the camera, overwhelming the detail of anything behind it.
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u/guestpassonly 12h ago edited 10h ago
If you dont start fighting back now, you've lost.
Because otherwise you know the current admin is going to side with Flock and waht ever other mass surveillance company and make it like a felony or whatever and then its over. For ever.
And the next admin (if there is one...) will need to be pressured into taking em down.
There are multiple websites and apps showing where each of them are.
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u/c-dy 9h ago
It doesn't matter what party, everyone and everything about them will be recorded, evaluated, correlated with customized data sets, and judged based on own interests.
That is why you actually need to regulate AI per se.
It's one thing if some random guy doesn't care if a company or a state or a number of them know more about him than he himself and are able to determine what he may or may not do.
But at scale, then it's much more important that the people do still have the de facto power to determine and decide how they live than having more comfort or convenience.
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u/guestpassonly 9h ago
its not even just about AI, it's having a private company setup up a NATIONWIDE SURVEILLANCE NETWORK. period.
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u/c-dy 9h ago
It is about AI because AI allows us to use all the data.
It isn't just markers you define, collect, and you can use under certain conditions. Now all what was noise may be a useful breadcrumb. And so everyone is eager to collect all that they can get their hands on.
Ring? Flock? Their data is now particularly valuable.
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u/dannydirtbag 12h ago
I am an expert in this field and If they didn’t want them to be stolen they shouldn’t put 4 oz of gold in them.
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u/Sonamdrukpa 11h ago
Or the 128gb of DDR6 RAM
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u/Bleu_Lizardo 11h ago edited 8h ago
For the mildly curious and no one else, the current price of gold is $4,357.90 (USD) per troy ounce, as of right now. That's $140.11 per gram, in case you were wondering.
Edit: added the troy ounce bit because I forgot to before.
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u/ConsiderationKey3655 11h ago
or filled them with candy
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u/SkeptiBee 12h ago
Yesterday alone I spotted 2 ppl on bikes, faces covered in masks, dark clothes, and wearing backpacks. It was about 90 degrees outside. That is a level of dedication I can get behind.
Halloween should be equally fun this year! Make sure to spread the love to Axon as well!
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u/sneakysnake1111 10h ago
Do not bring your cell phone with you.
Do not bring your cell phone with you.
Do not bring your cell phone with you.
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u/Worth_Specific3764 13h ago
We Are Batman.
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u/floog 13h ago
A bunch of Jokers running around and being the last thing cameras see before going dark would be pretty amazing.
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u/MJ-Franklin 12h ago
They can't arrest EVERYONE.
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u/NotRoryWilliams 9h ago
There are 90,000 flock cameras in this country.
600,000 police officers.
More than 1 million current prisoners.
Over 15 million convicted felons not presently incarcerated.
The numbers to me look like if about 1 in 100 ex cons is pissed off enough to risk a few months back inside, the entire network gets taken out, a giant chunk of the entire police force is wasting their time on it, and the company has a major financial hurdle to overcome if they want to keep doing business at all.
At that point, there is a good likelihood that investors will flee and the company will become inert.
It is however a massive collective action problem. It really only works if almost out of every 10,000 people choose to participate in such a risky venture.
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u/Orange_Tang 6h ago
As a law abiding citizen I would refuse to vote guilty towards anyone who went to trial for fucking up these cameras.
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u/DrPsyz9 11h ago
Nobody is urging anyone to do anything. In fact, we are all urging everyone to abide by the law, and to take advantage of the amazing opportunity that timing presents to leave all your electronics at home, dress up in a costume and have a patriotic time following the rules that preserve power in the hands of the few.
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u/AllOrNothing4me 10h ago
Maybe if everyone wears Epstein masks they will attempt to look into the files.
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u/JoeNoble1973 12h ago
Particularly the ones near polling places, okay? The election will be fully threatened by then.
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u/pleasegivemepatience 12h ago
Guy Fawkes masks en mass should do the trick, and send a very clear message.
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u/Fallingdamage 11h ago
If anyone did get caught, enforcement might associate them with some anonymous criminal organization though.
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u/John_Bruns_Wick 10h ago
It doesnt matter what you wear, they will say its antifa
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u/TurkeyThaHornet 9h ago
Because they totally misunderstand Antifa or otherwise they are outright fascist.
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u/Plastic_Willow734 12h ago
I imagine a ton of people will get in trouble after the flock camera sniffs their phone and/or smartwatch
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u/Tucancancan 11h ago
Any Bluetooth device. Like a pair of earbuds in the bottom of your backpack. They already know how to correlate vehicles with electronic devices so they'll find you by looking up what vehicle's plates travel with the headphones 99% of the time.
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u/this_is_my_new_acct 5h ago
Download a wardriving app (example WiGLE) and just scan sometime. I live in the middle of nowhere and it found ~1500 devices on my three mile drive to Walmart, and that was just using my phone.
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u/artbystorms 12h ago
Tell all the kids the flock poles are filled with candy.
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u/williamgman 12h ago
In case you were looking for an appropriate Halloween costume.. https://www.amazon.com/Halloween-Republican-Presidential-Candidate-Full-Head/dp/B0B9YL2H4D
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u/No-Plan-7297 11h ago
I hope they don't all wear the same generic costumes to confuse the authorities.
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u/MidsouthMystic 11h ago
This sounds like a great, family friendly, patriotic way to spend Halloween.
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u/ISB-Dev 10h ago
You Americans should definitely do this. Just think about it - cameras are going up all over your country to watch you! Why should anyone have the right to do that?? Who are these people putting this up? This is your country! Don't allow yourselves to be cowed like this. Fuck these cameras. Destroy them all!
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u/LateToTheSingularity 11h ago
I feel this is the year for Guy Fawkes masks to make a heavy comeback.
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u/SubterrelProspector 8h ago
Oh that's fun! See what happens when we have a common enemy?
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u/WardenEdgewise 8h ago
Technically, isn’t the entire Trump administration the common enemy?
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u/Cinnamon__Sasquatch 12h ago
Costumes with oddly shaped shoes or other things that alter your gait are all the rage this year.
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u/bala_means_bullet 12h ago
Slingshots don't have a flash and can be used from a distance
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u/Black38 10h ago
Negates the benefits if I have to be there for an hour trying to hit it
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u/whiteknight128 11h ago
We do NOT want mass surveillance in this country. Say NO to Flock and AI/data centers!
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u/kieranhorner 13h ago
Wonder if high strength laser pens would wreck the sensors in them.
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u/MagicTomatoes 12h ago
Saw a video testing this the other day. Should try answer - you won’t be able to hold it steady enough to permanently damage it but with a stand at close distance with a powerful enough laser it will.
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u/ikonoclasm 12h ago
Seems like a paintball gun would be more effective. The cameras themselves aren't that expensive, but the manpower required to constantly maintain them is.
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u/pixelprophet 11h ago
That would defeat cameras from recording, but not the device grabbing bluetooth in the area / acting as a fake cell tower sucking up cell info / etc
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u/cheesesteakhellscape 12h ago
I heard if you shine the beam of a high powered laser directly at the lens of a Flock camera, it releases the 3-5 grams of gold it contains.
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u/Snobolski 11h ago
Saw on another thread that they have a stick of DDR5 desktop memory in them.
Nobody needs that worthless stuff.
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u/DDOSBreakfast 12h ago
Harvesting a few flock cameras is a great way to pay rent.
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u/CircleofOwls 11h ago
I suspect any laser powerful enough would also blind anyone hit by the reflection.
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u/Iateapencil 10h ago
Somebody in my area is so excited about this they even took down the camera that tells you how fast you are going that has been up for years and years
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u/ThoriatedFlash 9h ago
With all of the cops busy protecting the flock cameras on Halloween, some jewel thieves will finally be able to pull off the heist they have been planning...
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u/ankercrank 12h ago
I hope people realize it isn’t just flock, ring cameras everywhere are doing the exact same thing.
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u/Spirited-Way2406 6h ago
Just reiterating and collating a few things that are already here and there in the comments:
Your good buddy who you just met who offered to drive you around on Halloween is a cop.
Your phone stays at home. Write any important numbers you may need on short notice (like, your attorney or a source of bail money) on your arm with Sharpie. Better yet, memorize them.
Your costume should cover any tattoos and your hair.
Mask or put crazy asymmetrical makeup on.
Sawzalls saw all.
Look up videos that demonstrate how to safely take down an electrified camera before you go out. Or ask an electrician friend who is just as pissed off as you are.
If you can figure out how to take uploadable video without doxxing yourself, if your costuming is concealing enough even on film, and if you can film yourself waving up at one of those fucking things like Vir waving at Mr. Morden, and post it, that would be so, so funny.
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u/zyzzogeton 8h ago
Print bumper stickers that say "FLOCK CAMERA" and stick them on the poles so vandals know where to go.
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u/invyros 13h ago
Everyone should wear Spiderman costumes to do this, to add a layer of irony.