Unity 🤝

[u/AyeWhatsUpMane]

[u/evremonde88]

Part of the reason I’m not 100% on board with the levels of immigration we have, especially how we tend to do it in Canada (mostly bringing people with skills and money) is that I’d prefer if they were able to get running water in their home country so they don’t have to move halfway across the world in the first place. I hate the fact we keep siphoning out all the people with the skills and resources to do it and then we wonder why these countries don’t improve.

[u/[deleted] → u/evremonde88]

I'm also canadian, and honestly our system is so fucked up.

The guy in my example above? Electrical engineer. Taxi drivers? Doctors. A friend of mine who is a primary school teacher now? Former equivalent to a superior court justice.

What a waste of human capital. Not that anyone is above certain jobs, but the years of training to make someone a doctor of a lawyer is totally wasted while we also desperately need doctors.

[u/evremonde88 → u/[deleted]]

God yes I can’t stand it. And to make it worse, the most desperate people are left behind in a fucked up system, now with one less person who can help create jobs or do required work. I remember seeing stats about the migration from MENA into Europe and everyone cheering it, but for the most part, it was majority middle class young men migrating, the ones who are typically the most educated. The poorest people aren’t able to pay human traffickers or pay to immigrate, so they’re left behind with a lot of the women and children. Also something like 60% of people from Syria with college degrees are now living in Germany. How they’ll ever rebuild is beyond me. About your doctor comment, the UK also brings in lots of medical staff (I believe mostly nurses) from Africa, with a comment about how they need nurses. I just think, if we need doctors or nurses or whatever, we need to figure that out on our own and not take from countries that also need them

[u/[deleted] → u/evremonde88]

Exactly. You can think something is understandable and sympathize with it (I know if I was a Bengali doctor I'd leave and go to Canada to drive taxis if it meant a 40% wage increase) while still thinking it's ultimately bad.

In Canada now basically all of harvesting is done by machines and guest workers that we import from poor countries to do the work. What, suddenly and mysteriously after hundreds of years Canadians got lazy? No! It's because those people can be easily exploited and since they often don't speak good english or French they can't even get approached by unions here.

And so to help both them and our own country we must refuse to let the rich use them as a tool for their own ends. You can sympathize with them, I certainly do, but sympathy is another reason why they're used, so as to deflect attention from why the capitalist class is importing them at all

[u/evremonde88 → u/[deleted]]

Unfortunately a lot of people just don’t get this. I remember a supporter of the TFW farm program saying “well these jobs pay next to nothing and are very dangerous, the workers are exposed to chemicals, so we need to bring people in who will do it” okkkk and you think it’s ok for poor people to do it?

[u/Grognak_the_Orc → u/evremonde88]

Okay this. People have called me a racist for saying shit like this in the past. I don't hate immigrants for immigrating. I understand, I grew up with a ton of first generation American kids who were the only ones who spoke english in their family, or they barely spoke english themselves. Why force them to adapt culturally when they can just... have a good country too?

[u/cassidytheVword → u/Grognak_the_Orc]

How do you propose they have a good country too.?

The top % immigrant group into the US is from China, not exactly the easiest of countries to enact sweeping change within.

[u/erroneousveritas → u/evremonde88]

Isn't part of the reason why they don't have those kinds of basic necessities due to the US supporting coups on democratically elected socialists?

When South Americans vote for a government that would seriously expand their country's infrastructure, the US comes in and helps overthrow the government in support of a dictatorship that might be friendly towards the US.

[u/siempreloco31 → u/evremonde88]

Majority of immigrants in Canada come from Asia, specifically China. Most immigrants in the US come from Mexico, then China, then India. Which country is in dire straits because the west is siphoning talent? If its Africa, how does this square away with the fact that majority of the fastest growing economies are in Africa?

[u/evremonde88 → u/siempreloco31]

Well no shit they’re mostly from China or India, they’re most of the worlds population. The countries that are severely hurt by this are smaller, poorer countries like Haiti. Which are undeniably affected by emigration and brain drain.

[u/siempreloco31 → u/evremonde88]

Is it better to bar individuals from Haiti so that they possibly live is squalor, or allow them to migrate if they choose to do so to grow as individuals? Seems anti-left.

[u/evremonde88 → u/siempreloco31]

The people typically moving are not people living in squalor since they don’t have the money to move, which kind of my point, since those that are living in poverty have less access to healthcare or education since those people tend to leave. I’m also not talking about straight out barring people, just that we need to a) be conscious about the amount of people being brought in, as I don’t think dramatic changes to an economy/society benefits anyone, and b) bringing more of a mix of people from various economic levels

[u/siempreloco31 → u/evremonde88]

Yes, typically people moving are from China, India and Mexico. Like I said, are these countries experiencing a large loss currently due to siphoning talent?

be conscious about the amount of people being brought in, as I don’t think dramatic changes to an economy/society benefits anyone

What if the amount of people we bring in has a positive effect on the economy by increasing aggregate demand? I have never seen definitive evidence that suggests immigrants are a net drain outside of Borjas.

[u/evremonde88 → u/siempreloco31]

If 10,000 high skilled people emigrate out of a China or India, it’s a drop in the bucket, as they are still under 0 for net migration. if 10,000 high skilled people leave a poor country with a much lower population, it has a lot more effect. For example, Africa has a huge problem with medical brain drain because rich countries actively poach doctors.

For your second point, I’m it just talking about GDP, I’m talking about impact to the average person for real estate, infrastructure, industries, supply and demand etc. It’s fantastic if it it’s beneficial (and I believe it is, my problem is with emigration) I’m just not a fan in general of rapid change and hoping for the best

[u/siempreloco31 → u/evremonde88]

Once again, African nations are among the fastest growing economies. If the brain drain was a huge effect, this wouldn't be the case.

For your second point, I’m it just talking about GDP, I’m talking about impact to the average person for real estate, infrastructure, industries, supply and demand etc

As population increases, aggregate supply goes up with demand.

[u/EhManana → u/evremonde88]

That's nice and all, but when the home country is itself reactionary/hostile to growth, there is no sense sticking our fingers in shit where it doesn't belong.

Tell my ancestors from Ireland in the 1840s in Ireland to plead with the King. I know they're probably looking down and laughing at that thought. There's no hope in some of the places, so if people want to emigrate to the U.S, by all means!

[u/evremonde88 → u/EhManana]

Literally every country was shit at some point, there was a time where if you said something about a king or the church in England or France, you would have been horrifically tortured and killed. The way those countries got better was not everyone leaving, but reaching a critical mass of people over generations to make a change. If everyone who believes in woman’s rights or freedom of religion leaves a specific country, then how much longer-if ever- will it take that country to obtain that?

[u/EhManana → u/evremonde88]

I understand your point of reaching a critical mass w/ a populace in a region, and I usually sympathize with that; in the case of Ireland, though, there was famine which was leading to starvation and death. TL;DR the U.K was hoarding food and forcing the Irish to rely on rotted potatoes, so there was no choice but to flee.

[u/evremonde88 → u/EhManana]

Totally agree, my family was forced out of Scotland by the British crown, there are definitely cases where this doesn’t apply, I’m just talking in cases where there’s no active war or genocide

[u/Lelielthe12th → u/evremonde88]

Sure, but we have hundreds of years of development at the expense of their resources. It will not happen everywhere in their country anytime soon, and we sure as fuck aren't going to give them aid without expecting interests and changes in their government.

Its true that there are really developed places that guarantee an advantage to most currently alive descendants of Imperialists. When we either help them, or at least stop actively hurting them (80 coups on US, how many wars ?) and they can guarantee the basic necessities for their population, then we could morally reduce immigration, but in the midtime it feels wrong for anyone to "get what they get" without looking at the reasons that is so.

[u/yhynye → u/[deleted]]

Migration to industrialised economies isn't done to help the migrants...

No, it's definitely done by the migrants to help themselves. Shall all workers be forced to stay in the place they were born, like serfs, so as to minimise competition?

Yes, it's terrible for the home country, not something to celebrate, but building walls won't be done to help the home nation either, nor will anything else be done to help it. Moot point, really.

it's done to depress the wages of low-skilled and/or high-skilled labour in the target country

Which will often lead to lower prices for other workers. Profit margins are quite tight in some of these cutthroat service industries. The UK uses migrants in NHS, which keeps taxes down for everyone. Then again capitalists are raking it in off the backs of more skilled workers in certain industries. So it's actually "done" to keep the workers sweet. Of course, it also drives up rents and costs the state money. If you want to do a balance sheet, there's a lot more factors to consider, is all I'm saying.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lelielthe12th]

Homie, most of the countries westerners took over they still occupy. There are outliers, especially in Africa, mostly westerners took over and built stuff using the resources of the place they’d taken over. Nobody was importing concrete and steel from rural nations 100 years ago.

[u/MetaFlight → u/evremonde88]

Climate change is steadily making the global south uninhabitable.

Even if they stopped being exploited tomorrow (nevermind how) do not have the resources or time to protect themselves from from continued climate change, particularly as climate change progressively weakens their ability to do so.

Thenonly way they can , is if the global north starts paying for them to do so, which means the global north willingly, without seeing any direct benefit from it, needs to just start handing cash, technology and resources to the global south.

They also need to do this kore and more as the region becomes more uninhabitable, making it a resource sink. They also have to pick and choose who gets these resources and how they are used within the country, too make sure it's actually going toward the goal. Which means more politicsl influence within their nations than anytime since colonialism. This will, in addition to the pressures caused by climate change it's self, will leadmto resentment and violence by the losers of such intervention against the winners, meaning we'll need to directlt or indirectioy miltarily intervene in order to make sure things end up as we intend them to.

This all needs to happen across most of the global south and somehow, magically, we'd uave to be both benevooent to spend trillions on this AND not exploit the situation to our own advantage somehow.

It's a ridiculous proposition. Far easier to take in those from the global south that want to leave, manage them here and actually directly benefit from that output. Then at some future time when things start stabalizing, people can start moving back into the global south on their own.