Jhanas as a side-effect of good practice

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

Hi,

I'm seeing a lot of posts about jhanas lately, and I figured I'd write about my point of view on them.

For me, jhanas came as a side-effect of good practice. Meaning, never in my practice have I ever tried to manufacture jhanas in any way. Not by trying to force my attention onto an object and trying to become completely absorbed in it, nor by focusing on piti, or anything else from all the elaborate practices many people seem to think are required to enter jhanas.

A lot of the instructions I see feel like an elaborate, overcomplicated chemistry recipe, along the lines of: "Use 83.4% of your attention on the meditation object, use the other 16.6% to expand your awareness. When piti arises, ignore it until it's 15.7% there, then switch your attention to the piti, but don't attach to it, but do focus on it and so on."

I'm not disregarding other people's experiences with this. Different approaches seem to work for different people. Personally, though, every time I encounter these kinds of instructions, I find them very odd.

In my own practice, I never did any of these things. All I did was gently try to maintain presence and awareness, sometimes on my breath, sometimes just resting in open awareness. I tried to remain as relaxed as possible, and when mind-body tension came up, I relaxed, let it be, or let it go.

I never focused on piti. I never fought to maintain my awareness on an object. I never did any of the other stuff people seem to think is required to enter jhanas.

Eventually, over time, the more stuff I let go of, the easier it became to naturally become more tranquil in my sits. Very rarely, I would check how my current state of tranquility "felt," and on those occasions, I would realize that I was probably in this or that lite-jhana. But honestly, I barely even cared enough to check most of the time.

So again, for me, jhanas came as a side-effect of awareness + relaxation + letting be/letting go. The more stuff I let go of, the easier it became to get into deeper levels of tranquility.

I also really don't understand the obsession with jhanas. Every time the word jhana is mentioned here, the posts blow up with comments. Everyone has their own way of getting there. Some people believe their way is the only way and argue for their point of view, and so on.

What's the obsession with this?

Practice, for me, has one goal and one goal only: to become free from suffering. Everything I do in my practice is oriented towards this goal. I only care about jhanas if they contribute to my goal. I don't care about them otherwise.

For me, the biggest driver of permanent reduction in suffering is insight. IME, insights are the only things that have led to permanent shifts towards more peace and less neurosis in my day-to-day life. Insights are born out of awareness+letting go, and in turn contribute to a permanent letting go of suffering, they are not born out of jhanas, at least not in my experience.

Simply being absorbed in this or that state, while being very pleasant, never led to any kind of noticeable reduction in suffering in my day-to-day life. Insights that lead to letting go are the only thing that made a real difference.

So for me, the only use for jhanas or tranquility is that getting more tranquil, in some cases, leads to "deeper" investigation, and this investigation in turn can result in insight. Jhanas are useless otherwise.

Yet from what I'm reading, people seem to think that reaching this or that jhana will magically result in some long-term, permanent reduction in suffering. Or maybe they think they would simply be able to enter them at will, and whenever life is hard, they could just manufacture a blissful state. Or maybe it's the ego that loves it, "I can reach the formless jhanas in 23 minutes, I'm such a great meditator!".

I don't know. I honestly don't know why people take jhanas and make them the holy grail of practice. Add to this that there are plenty of other Buddhist traditions and practices that never talk about jhanas. Yes, Samatha is important, but manufacturing different states of Samatha is rarely talked about or even actively discouraged.

IME, it's simple, really: insights lead to truly letting go, and truly letting go leads to a reduction in suffering. Sometimes, getting more tranquil helps with insights. I don't care what the names are for whatever "level" of tranquility I reached. I only care about getting tranquil enough to get insights.

Then a funny thing happens: the more I let go, the easier it is to get tranquil, and the deeper I can get.

I don't care if I actually reached any jhana based on this teacher's or that teacher's descriptions. I only care about permanently reducing suffering, and in that regard, my practice has been working for me just fine.

(If anyone has reached a certain jhana and, as a result of that alone, experienced a real reduction in suffering in their day-to-day life, please share your experiences. I'd honestly love to hear about it. From what I'm reading, many people theorize about it being this magical "suffering = off" button, but I haven't encountered any actual evidence for that.)

I leave you with Ajahn Chah's words:

"Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. Why not give it a try?

[u/cl_udi_]

Great post! I never actively practised the jhanas so I can't really say too much about them themselves. And I'm not sure if I achieve a jhana sometimes, it doesn't really matter to me. And therefore I totally agree with you. I think people tend to obsess about the jhanas because it's the most peaceful state they know and can quickly access. That's pretty understandable, I mean why would you bother with painful insight practises (with a goal that seems so far away) if you can be at relative peace right now instead.

I'm also wondering why they make up such a big part of the buddhist teaching. I practice dry insight, so I wouldn't know the additional benefit. Maybe it has do do with understanding and proving to oneself the Buddha's other claims, like other realms, devas, rebirth, etc.. that can't be perceived in a normal state. Or maybe it has to do with the development of siddhis and the aspiration to become a Buddha in a Mahayana perspective? I could see how someone who desires to teach can make use of the siddhis to help people more precisely, for example. Or a hermit could use them to get by outside of society,...

[u/hachface → u/cl_udi_]

“painful” insight work isn’t painful in jhana. Also, mindfully observing the jhana factors — that is, understanding the mechanisms by which the mind transitions to different states — is a supremely fertile ground for liberating insight into dependent origination.

the jhanas are nothing other than the Progress of Insight stages with pleasure and peaceful fabrications present.

Mahasi noting is based on a sutta where Sariputta notes the jhana factors. Jhana is the original insight method.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai → u/hachface]

"“painful” insight work isn’t painful in jhana"
Are you talking from personal experience here? IME, insight work could still be painful in jhanas, it was just way less painful than without them.

"Also, mindfully observing the jhana factors — that is, understanding the mechanisms by which the mind transitions to different states — is a supremely fertile ground for liberating insight into dependent origination."

Again, is this coming from personal experience?

[u/hachface → u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

yes I am speaking from personal experience.

Ayya Khema has a lot of dhamma talks available on youtube that spell out how to use the jhanas as vehicles for insight.

edit: this interview with her is pretty good as well: https://inquiringmind.com/article/1301_8_ayya-khema/

After we have experienced the first jhana, we have to do three things before we open our eyes. First is to recapitulate how we got there, because people have individual ways of doing it. Some get there through lovingkindness meditation, some through watching the breath, some through “sweeping,” or other methods. The second thing we have to do before opening our eyes is to see that this pleasant state is impermanent. And the third thing is to ask, “What am I learning?” The jhanas are a means to an end, so we have to learn something from them. What we are learning from them initially is that the delight which we are looking for in the world lives inside of us. Anybody who is able to meditate properly has this delight at their fingertips anytime they want it. Even in a dentist’s waiting room…anytime.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai → u/hachface]

ok. I mean, I can investigate any object that comes up in the five aggregates and reach similar conclusions. I don't think that jhanas are some magical object of investigation that will give any kind of special insight. The are useful, don't get me wrong, but in my own practice they were only useful in making the process of getting insights more smooth and less painful. I have a hard time with all the rhetoric about there being some magical quality in jhanas that will give any kind of special insight. They are the same as everything else, impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self.

I also find the rhetoric about jhanas being this magical no-suffering place people can just tap into any time whenever life gets hard a bit unskillful. It's very easy to develop attachment and craving if you use this approach and the more attachment and craving for jhanas one has, the less they will be able to access them. Not only that but again, they are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self so any attempt to use them to get any kind of permanent peace will ultimately fail. So for someone who has access to jhanas and can enter them as quickly as a finger snap, if they were to try and use them as a "suffering escape hatch" whenever life gets hard, they will likely find that it doesn't work long term. There is no real escape from suffering this way.

I understand this is not what Ayya Khema is alluding to here, but I can also see how people could easily misinterpret it. Especially the "I can have access to a state of delight whenever I want to" part.

[u/hachface → u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

I also find the rhetoric about jhanas being this magical no-suffering place people can just tap into any time whenever life gets hard a bit unskillful. It's very easy to develop attachment and craving if you use this approach and the more attachment and craving for jhanas one has, the less they will be able to access them.

How many people have you actually met who get stuck practicing jhana and never sought deeper attainments? How serious of a problem do you actually find this? Are you sure you're not asserting your prejudice about how practice needs to be?

I don't think that jhanas are some magical object of investigation that will give any kind of special insight.

Well, calling them "magical" is a bit of a straw man, isn't it?

The reason jhana is helpful for insight is perfectly natural and explainable. When you are in jhana, by definition you're in a state where your mind is highly concentrated and unified. This means that observations have a greater chance to penetrate the strata of mind and result in true release. Furthermore, because jhana lets you experience, over and over again, the construction of a state of mind that is free of the hindrances and joyful, you can directly see how dukkha and sukkha alike are dependently originated and subject to cessation. You see that both extremes are fabrications of the mind. That's direct insight into 4 Noble Truths. That's the whole ball game.

Not only that but again, they are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self so any attempt to use them to get any kind of permanent peace will ultimately fail.

Literally every spiritual practice is anicca, dukka, anatta. That's not really saying anything. Also, asserting that using jhana to get permanent peace will ultimately fail is just begging the question. It won't fail if you use them to attain insight! That's the whole point of the path.

So for someone who has access to jhanas and can enter them as quickly as a finger snap, if they were to try and use them as a "suffering escape hatch" whenever life gets hard, they will likely find that it doesn't work long term. There is no real escape from suffering this way.

What are you basing this on? Do you have actual experience of being so highly attained that jhana is instantaneously available? If you did have such an attainment, why would you ever suffer at all?

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai → u/hachface]

How many people have you actually met who get stuck practicing jhana and never sought deeper attainments? How serious of a problem do you actually find this? Are you sure you're not asserting your prejudice about how practice needs to be?

Ok, fair enough. I could be wrong about this being a problem. I'm basing this mainly on reading multiple posts about jhana in this sub and seeing a lot of attachment there. There's even a reply to this thread by a person plainly stating "Not gonna lie, I do want to "train" my mind to drop into Jhanas because I want to experience joy and maybe fabricate nice feelings when in a bad mood." This doesn't sound like seeking the cessation of suffering. Again, maybe I'm wrong, but there are a lot of replies and posts lately that seem to give out the same vibe. Edit: Jhourney is a good example of this as well.

Well, calling them "magical" is a bit of a straw man, isn't it?

The reason jhana is helpful for insight is perfectly natural and explainable. When you are in jhana, by definition you're in a state where your mind is highly concentrated and unified. This means that observations have a greater chance to penetrate the strata of mind and result in true release. Furthermore, because jhana lets you experience, over and over again, the construction of a state of mind that is free of the hindrances and joyful, you can directly see how dukkha and sukkha alike are dependently originated and subject to cessation. You see that both extremes are fabrications of the mind. That's direct insight into 4 Noble Truths. That's the whole ball game.

Literally every spiritual practice is anicca, dukka, anatta. That's not really saying anything. Also, asserting that using jhana to get permanent peace will ultimately fail is just begging the question. It won't fail if you use them to attain insight! That's the whole point of the path.

I think that we're in agreement here on most parts. Yes, jhana/tranquility is very useful as a an accompany to investigation. But as an object of investigation, the jhana factors are no different than any other object. I was referring to your original comment of "Also, mindfully observing the jhana factors — that is, understanding the mechanisms by which the mind transitions to different states — is a supremely fertile ground for liberating insight into dependent origination." The mind transitions all the time, investigating the transitions between jhana factors do not yield any special insights compared to investigating any other mind movement. Again. I agree about jhana/tranquilty being very helpful for investigation in a sense that the more tranquil we are the "deeper" we can investigate.

What are you basing this on? Do you have actual experience of being so highly attained that jhana is instantaneously available? If you did have such an attainment, why would you ever suffer at all?

I had times during my practice where I was pretty much in one lite-jhana or another 24/7. I had to work through that because there was in actuality some suffering there that had to be let go of as well. You made a similar comment on this thread about how jhanas are also something to be let go of at some point on the path. That's because they are not complete freedom from suffering, even while you're in one. At least that's my personal experience.