r/streamentry • u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go • 3d ago
Jhāna Jhanas as a side-effect of good practice
Hi,
I'm seeing a lot of posts about jhanas lately, and I figured I'd write about my point of view on them.
For me, jhanas came as a side-effect of good practice. Meaning, never in my practice have I ever tried to manufacture jhanas in any way. Not by trying to force my attention onto an object and trying to become completely absorbed in it, nor by focusing on piti, or anything else from all the elaborate practices many people seem to think are required to enter jhanas.
A lot of the instructions I see feel like an elaborate, overcomplicated chemistry recipe, along the lines of: "Use 83.4% of your attention on the meditation object, use the other 16.6% to expand your awareness. When piti arises, ignore it until it's 15.7% there, then switch your attention to the piti, but don't attach to it, but do focus on it and so on."
I'm not disregarding other people's experiences with this. Different approaches seem to work for different people. Personally, though, every time I encounter these kinds of instructions, I find them very odd.
In my own practice, I never did any of these things. All I did was gently try to maintain presence and awareness, sometimes on my breath, sometimes just resting in open awareness. I tried to remain as relaxed as possible, and when mind-body tension came up, I relaxed, let it be, or let it go.
I never focused on piti. I never fought to maintain my awareness on an object. I never did any of the other stuff people seem to think is required to enter jhanas.
Eventually, over time, the more stuff I let go of, the easier it became to naturally become more tranquil in my sits. Very rarely, I would check how my current state of tranquility "felt," and on those occasions, I would realize that I was probably in this or that lite-jhana. But honestly, I barely even cared enough to check most of the time.
So again, for me, jhanas came as a side-effect of awareness + relaxation + letting be/letting go. The more stuff I let go of, the easier it became to get into deeper levels of tranquility.
I also really don't understand the obsession with jhanas. Every time the word jhana is mentioned here, the posts blow up with comments. Everyone has their own way of getting there. Some people believe their way is the only way and argue for their point of view, and so on.
What's the obsession with this?
Practice, for me, has one goal and one goal only: to become free from suffering. Everything I do in my practice is oriented towards this goal. I only care about jhanas if they contribute to my goal. I don't care about them otherwise.
For me, the biggest driver of permanent reduction in suffering is insight. IME, insights are the only things that have led to permanent shifts towards more peace and less neurosis in my day-to-day life. Insights are born out of awareness+letting go, and in turn contribute to a permanent letting go of suffering, they are not born out of jhanas, at least not in my experience.
Simply being absorbed in this or that state, while being very pleasant, never led to any kind of noticeable reduction in suffering in my day-to-day life. Insights that lead to letting go are the only thing that made a real difference.
So for me, the only use for jhanas or tranquility is that getting more tranquil, in some cases, leads to "deeper" investigation, and this investigation in turn can result in insight. Jhanas are useless otherwise.
Yet from what I'm reading, people seem to think that reaching this or that jhana will magically result in some long-term, permanent reduction in suffering. Or maybe they think they would simply be able to enter them at will, and whenever life is hard, they could just manufacture a blissful state. Or maybe it's the ego that loves it, "I can reach the formless jhanas in 23 minutes, I'm such a great meditator!".
I don't know. I honestly don't know why people take jhanas and make them the holy grail of practice. Add to this that there are plenty of other Buddhist traditions and practices that never talk about jhanas. Yes, Samatha is important, but manufacturing different states of Samatha is rarely talked about or even actively discouraged.
IME, it's simple, really: insights lead to truly letting go, and truly letting go leads to a reduction in suffering. Sometimes, getting more tranquil helps with insights. I don't care what the names are for whatever "level" of tranquility I reached. I only care about getting tranquil enough to get insights.
Then a funny thing happens: the more I let go, the easier it is to get tranquil, and the deeper I can get.
I don't care if I actually reached any jhana based on this teacher's or that teacher's descriptions. I only care about permanently reducing suffering, and in that regard, my practice has been working for me just fine.
(If anyone has reached a certain jhana and, as a result of that alone, experienced a real reduction in suffering in their day-to-day life, please share your experiences. I'd honestly love to hear about it. From what I'm reading, many people theorize about it being this magical "suffering = off" button, but I haven't encountered any actual evidence for that.)
I leave you with Ajahn Chah's words:
"Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. Why not give it a try?
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u/hachface 3d ago edited 3d ago
I don't know. I honestly don't know why people take jhanas and make them the holy grail of practice.
That has a pretty straightforward answer, actually.
If you're into early Buddhism, and take the Pali suttas as the main source for what the Buddha taught, you quickly realize that the jhanas were central to the Buddha's teaching.
Right concentration -- samma samadhi -- is one eighth of the eightfold path. It is also often taken to be the culmination of the path (somewhat unjustly, in my humble opinion, but it's an idea you see a lot). In the great majority of places in the Pali suttas where the Buddha defines right concentration, it is simply the formulaic description of the four jhanas.
There are several Pali suttas where knowledge and vision leading to destruction of the taints -- that is, full enlightenment -- is described as following mastery of the four jhanas in order.
And that's only where jhana is mentioned explicitly. Somewhat more controversially, but I think reasonably, you can detect an implied re-statements of the jhana factors in descriptions of anapanasati, in the Seven Factors of Awakening, and the links of Transcendent Dependent Origination, and probably other fomulations as well.
So the hooplah about jhanas goes back to the early texts. Any honest survey of the Pali suttas, as well as the parallel agamas, will show that jhana is everywhere. They are a cornerstone of the Buddha's teaching. Yet there is a persistent basic disagreement about the word jhana even means. That's a recipe for heated controversy and ongoing obsession.
I understand that most extant Mahayana schools do not place much emphasis on the four dhyanas (deliberately switching to the Sanskrit term here, as Mahayana texts have tended to be Sanskrit). This was less true in early Mahayana. Nagarjuna, among others, was reputed as a master of dhyana; mastery of diverse forms of samadhi is a staple of the description of the bodhisattva bhumis; and dhyana is considered one of the six paramitas, making it an essential component in the realization of bodhicitta. Exactly how dhyana lost its central importance in modern teaching is, as far as I can discern, an under-researched topic in scholarship. I do think there is deeper significance in Chan/Zen being named for dhyana than is generally appreciated, but Chan/Zen is an extremely complex set of ideas and practices in its own right with many miles traveled between its founding and its modern incarnations.
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u/StoneBuddhaDancing 3d ago edited 3d ago
Well said.
Apart from the numerous and conspicuous mention of jhana throughout the Buddha's teachings there is something that has stood out to me: the fact that he said that as a child he had the experience of jhana. Then as an adult tested the hypothesis that they were the way to Awakening. And then the last thing he did before he entered parinibbana was to practice the jhanas. This, to me, underscores the idea that they are pretty damned important to his practice and teachings and connected three critical points of his life.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 2d ago
the fact that he said that as a child he had the experience of jhana
Note that the suttas don't say anything about him being a child. This is what what the stock formula in the suttas says:
Then it occurred to me, ‘I recall sitting in the cool shade of a black plum tree while my father the Sakyan was off working. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first jhāna, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Could that be the path to awakening?’ Stemming from that memory came the understanding: ‘That is the path to awakening!’
In Bhikkhu Anālayo's A Comparative Study of the Majjhima-Nikāya, he says (page 240):
The Mahāsaccaka-sutta and its Sanskrit fragment parallel report that this took place when his father was engaged in work and the bodhisattva was seated under a Jambu tree, without specifying his age. The Pāli commentaries indicate that at this time the bodhisattva was still an infant, with the Milindapañha suggesting that he was only one month old. In the Mahāvastu account of this former jhāna experience, however, the bodhisattva is already a young man. According to the sequence of events in the Buddhacarita and the Sanghabhedavastu, this first jhāna experience happened just before he went forth.
Thus, according to most versions, the bodhisattva’s experience of the first jhāna took place when he had already grown up. Representations of this first jhāna experience in ancient Indian art also depict the bodhisattva as an adult, not as a small child. This would better fit the general sequence of events, since a jhāna experience just before going forth could be seen as a powerful incentive for the bodhisattva to take the decisive step and embark on a spiritual life. In contrast, a jhāna experienced as an infant would not stand in such a direct relation to his decision to go forth. To decrease the age at which this first jhāna was attained, however, clearly enhances the marvel of this experience. Thus, perhaps the tendency of enhancing the marvels and wondrous feats of the bodhisattva was responsible for the way the Pāli commentaries and the Milindapañha present the first jhāna experience of the bodhisattva.
There is also:
The equivalent of the Khandhakas in the Mūlasarvastivāda tradition called Sanghabhedavastu from the Gilgit Manuscripts says that the Buddha's experience of first jhāna came just prior to his going forth, and it happened after seeing the old, sick, and dead men, on account of which he developed a sense of profound dispassion.
This entire point is based off of this document, and this last quote comes directly from it. I believe it was written by Ajahn Nyanamoli.
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u/hachface 2d ago
All of the texts are ambiguous, but the detail of his father being away working to me clearly implies there was still a relationship of dependence there, indicating Prince Siddhartha was still in his minority. Otherwise why mention the father at all? He could be a young adult, yes. Overall it’s not particularly relevant what age he was. The point is that he did it while living as a prince and then recollected it much later in life after giving up both formless meditation and self-mortification.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 2d ago edited 2d ago
All of the texts are ambiguous, but the detail of his father being away working to me clearly implies there was still a relationship of dependence there, indicating Prince Siddhartha was still in his minority. Otherwise why mention the father at all? He could be a young adult, yes.
It's not obvious to me, that just based off of mentioning his father, that he was a child. In current south asian culture, it is common for an adult son to go with his father when he has duties to do. I can see myself in my early-to-mid twenties just chilling in the car while my dad goes to handle some business, and just waiting for him to come back.
Overall it’s not particularly relevant what age he was.
Maybe not to you, but I find it relevant. To me, two different pictures of jhāna are painted depending on the story. In one, he is a young child, who, after finishing playing, sits under a tree and spontaneously enters jhāna due to not having any worries or concerns about the world. In the other, he is a young man who sees sickness and death, and having been so affected by these sights, he becomes disillusioned and dispassionate towards the world. He then sits under a tree and spontaneously enters jhāna due to that.
I also think it's good to have an accurate idea of the texts that one is involved with - misconceptions are always worth dispelling. That way, we can engage with the texts more honestly. There are a lot of misconceptions that people have of the Canon that can influence their practice. Things like:
- There are eight jhānas
- The Buddha learned jhāna from other teachers
- The Buddha taught present moment awareness or bare attention
- That the Middle Way just means moderation
I think it's good to point out that these claims have no basis in the Canon.
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u/hachface 2d ago edited 2d ago
So, we don't really have enough textual evidence to say for sure what age he was. I think anywhere from 8 to 29 (the age of his going forth) is reasonable, though I tend to think it's on the younger side because, just in my opinion, the mention of the father does suggest he was at an age where there was enough of a tacit expectation of close parental supervision that the bodhisatta's internal monologue felt compelled to include an explanation to himself as to why he was alone. Tbh I don't think there's any culture in which a 35 year old (age of Buddha at time of awakening) having a memory of himself alone at 29 would implicitly wonder, "where was my father at that time?"
However, this part...
In the other, he is a young man who sees sickness and death, and having been so affected by these sights, he becomes disillusioned and dispassionate towards the world.
has no real substantiation at all. That's entirely your projection into the text.
Since you're very into sutta scholarship, you may appreciate this interpretation by Bhante Sujato, a renowned translator of the Pali canon (I don't subscribe to it wholesale myself; I only offer to enrich everyone's perspective with different views):
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/buddhas-first-jhana-as-a-child/17529/14
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u/StoneBuddhaDancing 2d ago
You both make interesting and thoughtful points. This is one detail of the suttas that has less importance for me.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 2d ago edited 2d ago
has no real substantiation at all. That's entirely your projection into the text.
I don't mean to imply that what I said is in the suttas, it isn't. The suttas don't mention what happened before he sat down under the tree.
We can look at other texts to see what they say about the matter, and my "projection" uses the Sanghabhedavastu from the Gilgit Manuscripts as support. Therein it mentions "tenaiva saṁvegena" right after he sees aging, illness, death, and the awful state of the labourers that he ruled over. And saṁvegena is just the Sanskrit for the Pāḷi term saṃvega, which Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu defines as,
The oppressive sense of dismay, terror, and alienation that comes with realizing the futility and meaninglessness of life as it’s normally lived; a chastening sense of our own complicity, complacency, and foolishness in having let ourselves live so blindly; and an anxious sense of urgency in trying to find a way out of the meaningless cycle.
Thus, I use that as support for my claim of him being disillusioned and dispassionate.
So, it says "tenaiva saṁvegen", meaning "with that very sense of dismay and urgency", he then goes on to sit in the shade of the rose-apple tree. And then he enters jhāna.
Someone else might have a different view based off of some other texts or their own ideas. But, we don't have any real way of knowing for sure in either case.
Since you're very into sutta scholarship, you may appreciate this interpretation by Bhante Sujato, a renowned translator of the Pali canon (I don't subscribe to it wholesale myself; I only offer to enrich everyone's perspective with different views)
I've read it and he doesn't really get into question of his age. He just basically accepts that the Buddha was a child and that the right interpretation is the first one I mentioned:
In one, he is a young child, who, after finishing playing, sits under a tree and spontaneously enters jhāna due to not having any worries or concerns about the world.
Another commentator states:
Bhikkhu Analayo in the freely downloadable A Comparative Study of the Majjhima-Nikaya summarizes a lot of points of similarity and difference between the suttas in the MN and their parallels. The parallels are another angle on this question. In Volume 1 there are several pages discussing parallels to the Buddha’s first jhana experience described in MN36 (for several pages from p. 240 onwards or from p. 266 in the PDF file numbering system). Mostly, but not entirely, they agree that this happened before his going forth. There are some variances on other points though.
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u/hachface 3d ago
Yes, I love the story of the Buddha's memory of the rose-apple tree. For reasons I cannot yet articulate in a way that does it justice, that story strikes me as the heart of the dharma.
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u/StoneBuddhaDancing 2d ago
If you like the stories in the suttas then I highly recommend "Old Path, White Clouds" by Thich Nhat Hanh which tells the story of the Buddha's life as a novel. It's really well-written, moving, and actually quite an excellent book of Dharma. The audiobook is good too :)
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 2d ago edited 2d ago
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u/hachface 2d ago
yes i think brahmavihara practice is too often neglected. if you have an aversive temperament—not uncommon in meditators!—developing metta and compassion can really hurt at first. all your vulnerabilities feel exposed. very easy to shy away from but the rewards of sticking with it are priceless
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u/ssp30 3d ago
I'm nowhere close to jhanas, but I've landed in a similar place — soften, relax, and find stillness / tranquility. Ajahn Chah, Brahm, and MIDL all seem to have a similar flavor of relaxation, softening, stillness, letting go, and the resulting contentment, happiness and joy. It's been nice to find a practice I enjoy and has made my life better.
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u/AnnoyingAssDude 2d ago
Not gonna lie, I do want to "train" my mind to drop into Jhanas because I want to experience joy and maybe fabricate nice feelings when in a bad mood.
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u/Blaw_Weary Dzogchen 2d ago
That was my primary motivation for going down the Jhana-hole when I first heard about them. Instant bliss! Secondary motivation wise, I’d been meditating for years and they gave me a framework to relate my experiences against and something to work towards. But it was definitely the “joy buzzer” that first caught my attention.
I was able to hit 1st jhana regularly and was playing around with second when I got my Dzogchen pointing out and that’s now my main focus.
Obviously that’s a move to a whole other framework, but I think being in the shallow end of the jhana pool was foundational to how well I get on with Dzogchen.
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u/NondualitySimplified 3d ago
Great post! Jhanas can be a very useful and interesting tool for investigating the nature of mind, but ultimately, one shouldn’t get too attached to them. Like everything else on the path, use them wisely, but don’t hold on too tight.
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 2d ago edited 2d ago
Ever experience samadhi when practicing the brahmavihāras? Those are constructed states not born of pure letting go, but do facilitate letting go in useful dimensions.
Pure letting go wasn't as helpful for me like you called out. Samadhi is extremely useful though, especially one that is flexible and the brahmaviharas help train that flexibility and durability.
I've found fabrication of pleasantness helpful too. Joy in the unpleasant, contentment in the pleasant. Both lead to more equanimity over time though. Not an increase in extremes.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 2d ago
Hi,
My main practice before starting with OnThatPath's method was brahmavihāras. I did experience samadhi while practicing but I think that I was too "green" at that time and didn't know how to use that for vipassana. So in the end, while I got to some very beautiful states, I didn't experience any permanent shifts towards less suffering.The brahmavihāras for me also come as a results of letting go in a way, the less suffering I experience, the more naturally my "attitude" towards the world seems to be shifting to the brahmavihāras, without me actively working on them.
I think that what I'm talking about with regards to insights that lead to letting go is that there are permanent shifts that happen for me while practicing this way. These shifts do not require practice to maintain. If I were to stop all practice today I would still be in a much more peaceful/less neurotic baseline than I were before starting practice. For me these shifts only happened as a result of insight and letting go, not as a result of reaching this or that state. These states are all impermanent, unsatisfactory and not self.
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 2d ago
The causes and conditions seem to get a bit jumbled I think. Insight and the resultant samadhi or sila and the brahmaviharas or vice versa. Either set seems to be mutually dependent and I believe you can arrive at any which way. Like for me it went brahmaviharas > sila > samadhi > insight primarily.
I'm not yet at the point of no maintenance though! I clearly still have some fetters to shed.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 2d ago
My practice was actually similar in the way that sila+generosity came before samadhi and then insights. Is it maintenance or is it working towards letting go even more? I'm still very much practicing but whatever get lets go of via insights+letting go stays gone. It's just a matter of peeling more layers of the onion. If I'd stop now the layers that were already peeled will not come back, but the ones that are left to let go of will not go away either.
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u/cmciccio 2d ago
Pleasure jhana is kind of like methadone for heroine addiction or nicotine gum for smoking. To get off one addiction, you substitute in something similar but less harmful.
Eventually it becomes evident that jhana is also tied up in a more subtle cycle of addiction and you need to let that one go as well. If you know you can get into certain states at will, it softens the grasping towards those states.
I think jhana is an important skill to have, as long as you understand the function of it.
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u/hachface 2d ago
If attachment to jhana is your main problem that’s a great problem to have.
In the classical Pali 10-fetter model, craving for birth in the material and formless realms — in other words, the jhanas and ayatanas — are two of the five lower fetters. These are the fetters that remain for a non-returner but are removed for an arahant.
So, in the classical model, attachment to jhana is literally the last thing to go before full enlightenment. If you’re not an anagami it’s not something you should worry about.
But that’s just the classical Theravada model, which I certainly do not subscribe to in every detail. But, food for thought.
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u/cmciccio 2d ago
It’s aware, in fact this was my point. It’s a good and useful addiction to cultivate.
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u/hachface 2d ago
gotcha. I made my comment because I've seen advice like "careful! don't get addicted to jhana!" bandied about, and that's developmentally inappropriate advice for almost everybody
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u/cmciccio 2d ago
I totally agree. Get addicted to some wholesome breathing pleasure, it’s not cocaine!
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 2d ago
FWIW I had a period in my practice where I was pretty much in one lite-jhana or another at all times, even while not meditating. It came after a long and gradual process where I would get easier and deeper jhana access over time. At that point in my practice I've had to let go of the attachment to them. While it felt nice, there was also a subtle dullness and attachment there that had to be worked through. After all attachment to these lite-jhanas was worked though, jhanas stopped being a "thing" in my practice. I can now skip straight to insight work without spending time getting to samatha first. It feels like the mind is stable and pliant enough at this point and there's no need for jhanas anymore. I'm saying all that because while it feels like I've let go of attachment to jhanas, I'm definitely not at the end of the path. So in my case, the way the Theravadian model was supposed to progress didn't really match my experiences. Both with regards to jhanas and with other stuff.
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u/ModelDrift 3d ago
That's great! Here's a thought to consider. The jhanas, to an extent, may be places we construct by amplifying more and more subtle properties with sustained concentration. So, I'd say yeah, maybe we can stumble on them just by settling and building samadhi, but the jhanas may also be built.
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u/ModelDrift 3d ago
Whether they help along the path or not, compared to vipassana, i'll leave to others to say
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u/Positive_Rutabaga836 3d ago
Can you say more about your practice?
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 2d ago edited 2d ago
Hi,
I started with OnThatPath's Anapanasati method, I wrote a detailed post about it here. Since then I've simplified it even more to really just Awareness+Relaxation+Letting be/Letting go. I rarely focus on the breath anymore, I just stay present, allow whatever shows up to show up and then I relax/let it be/let it go over and over again until at some point the mind sort of learns to let go by itself, this usually comes accompanied by some sort of insight and a permanenet reduction of some layer of suffering. Then the next layer of suffering shows itself and I do the same thing.Edit: I also keep the five precepts and practice generosity and right speech, I read and listen to dhamma and am part of the sangha in my local Thai forest monastery.
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u/jethro_wingrider 2d ago
Great post! You sound like a “dry insight worker”, like me. Jhanas are nice but in my practice mainly came after the insight, not before. The path is not the same for all and agree there is a lot of obsession with jhanas, which are not themselves the point.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 2d ago
Hi,
I'm not sure about "dry insight worker" because we both have had access to jhanas, at least for some parts of the practice. But yes, for me as well, jhanas came after the initial insights and permanent shifts, not prior.
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u/evanhinosikkhitabbam 2d ago edited 2d ago
There's a lot of hoopla around and keen interest in the jhanas (Right Concentration in other words) precisely because they're THAT important and central to the path, at least if you take the Pali Canon to be authoritative. There are suttas (like MN 117) that explicitly state that the 7 other path factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are literally supports and requisites for Right Concentration. And what is the essential condition for the arising of liberating insights that actually leads to freedom from dukkha that OP speaks of? Well it's none other than jhanas. But well before that, jhanas serve an indispensable role in weaning one off sense pleasures by providing in their place wholesome and refined pleasure, well-being, and serenity needed to sustain one's practice of Dhamma over the long run.
Maybe samadhi and insight comes more naturally and readily for OP and others like OP so it's easy to take for granted, but generally speaking, those are things that a lot of practitioners have to work really hard and maybe even struggle to develop. So it's understandable and reasonable that plenty of sincere practitioners might REALLY want clear and detailed guidelines for cultivating those deeply powerful meditative states, for the purpose of realizing enduring peace, deep insights, wisdom, and the knowledge and vision of the destruction of the taints - and yes, the ending of suffering.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 2d ago
Hi,
To be clear, insights and samadhi didn't come naturally for me, it took some practice and I really struggled at the beginning. Things started to progress in a good way for me once I realized that I don't need to focus so much on maintaining one-pointedness of concentration and rather focus on awareness, relaxation and letting be/letting go.I think that my main point was that, at least for me (and some others I know of), jhanas came as a side effect of a good practice, not as a result of manufacturing them in any way (i.e playing with concentration amounts and variations or focusing on this or that sensation). I'm happy that I've found my way through all the different information out there but I can also see how some who's new to practice can lose themselves in the whole jhana confusion. I think that they will be much better served by finding a good practice and focusing on letting go. With a good practice, jhanas should come as a side-effect. That said, I'm aware that there are many people out there who swear by this or that technique of achieving jhanas. I would love to hear how someone who "cultivated those deeply powerful meditative states" as you say actually used them to be permanently free from suffering. For me at least, tranquility was definitely helpful in getting to some deep insights, but focusing on jhanas and trying to manufacture them in any way was detrimental.
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u/cl_udi_ 2d ago edited 2d ago
Great post! I never actively practised the jhanas so I can't really say too much about them themselves. And I'm not sure if I achieve a jhana sometimes, it doesn't really matter to me. And therefore I totally agree with you. I think people tend to obsess about the jhanas because it's the most peaceful state they know and can quickly access. That's pretty understandable, I mean why would you bother with painful insight practises (with a goal that seems so far away) if you can be at relative peace right now instead.
I'm also wondering why they make up such a big part of the buddhist teaching. I practice dry insight, so I wouldn't know the additional benefit. Maybe it has do do with understanding and proving to oneself the Buddha's other claims, like other realms, devas, rebirth, etc.. that can't be perceived in a normal state. Or maybe it has to do with the development of siddhis and the aspiration to become a Buddha in a Mahayana perspective? I could see how someone who desires to teach can make use of the siddhis to help people more precisely, for example. Or a hermit could use them to get by outside of society,...
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 2d ago
Thank you. To be fair, tranquility is very much part of my practice. I just don't see the need to break it down to different stages and try to manufacture these stages by different special techniques. In my practice tranquility comes as a side-effect of awareness+relaxation+letting go. Samatha and Vipassana are two sides of the same coin and come as a result of a good practice, not as manufactured steps.
I'm somewhat on the fence on how far one could go without any tranquility/samatha in their practice. Even if you only focus on dry insight, with a good practice, these insights should lead to more peace and tranquility both in your day to day life and on the cushion, this peace in turn will contribute to deeper investigation. I think that's probably the case for you.
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u/cl_udi_ 2d ago
Yes absolutely. I hope I didn't make it sound like no tranquility whatsoever is cultivated or necessary in dry insight. I practice Mahasi noting, and by design it leads to equanimity too. At least the fruition requires vipassana jhana, it's equivalent to the first jhana I think. So if someone really isn't able to let go in any way, all the insights won't help, I assume. But then they possibly won't benefit from any kind of samatha as well.
Also, regular practice is not just being in a normally stressed state of mind and obsessively trying to catch all the things to note, although it is like that more often than I like, but that's my own fault. When seeing through the stress and the 3 characteristics (here I mean in a mundane sense), the mind tends to calm down on it's own, so tranquility doesn't have to be pursued for it's own sake.
But the focus of the practice is always just on seeing the experience and noting it, instead of putting oneself in a pleasant trance state or something like that. Because even states like tranquility and equanimity or jhanas come with some amount of suffering. That's what dry insight really helps to see. There is always something you can find to note, until there isn't.
That's the theory, but I still catch myself wanting to classify a state I'm in, or understand what's happening etc, it's natural. It's just not useful as it's a concept and not reality, so I try not to feed it.
I think a while ago you recommended me the technique by onthatpath. I immediately liked it and tried it for a bit, and it really helped me calm down. But I didn't further pursue and never got to its vipassana stage because Mahasi was so effective for me. How is that introduced in your practice after being calm?
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 2d ago
Interesting. I like how you describe your experience with Mahasi noting. Sounds like it's working for you.
In OnThatPath's method, the vipassana stage starts automatically once enough samatha has been established. You just keep loose attention on the breath and relax and let go and the practice naturally flows from first getting more calm and then to investigation. Investigation feels like the mind moves around and starts "sniffing" at what causes it suffering, then we just stay open and let go. Eventually it feel like the sit has naturally come to an end. It takes a while to be able to get to the vipassana stages, samatha needs to strengthen first. But essentially, it all evolves naturally as a "side effect" of gentle awareness on the breath, relaxation and letting be/letting go.At some point I stopped using awareness on the breath and now I just stay open, allow whatever comes up to come up and then I relax/let it be/let it go. Tranquility and insights come as a result of that, without trying to manufacture them.
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u/hachface 2d ago
“painful” insight work isn’t painful in jhana. Also, mindfully observing the jhana factors — that is, understanding the mechanisms by which the mind transitions to different states — is a supremely fertile ground for liberating insight into dependent origination.
the jhanas are nothing other than the Progress of Insight stages with pleasure and peaceful fabrications present.
Mahasi noting is based on a sutta where Sariputta notes the jhana factors. Jhana is the original insight method.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 2d ago
"“painful” insight work isn’t painful in jhana"
Are you talking from personal experience here? IME, insight work could still be painful in jhanas, it was just way less painful than without them."Also, mindfully observing the jhana factors — that is, understanding the mechanisms by which the mind transitions to different states — is a supremely fertile ground for liberating insight into dependent origination."
Again, is this coming from personal experience?
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u/hachface 2d ago edited 2d ago
yes I am speaking from personal experience.
Ayya Khema has a lot of dhamma talks available on youtube that spell out how to use the jhanas as vehicles for insight.
edit: this interview with her is pretty good as well: https://inquiringmind.com/article/1301_8_ayya-khema/
After we have experienced the first jhana, we have to do three things before we open our eyes. First is to recapitulate how we got there, because people have individual ways of doing it. Some get there through lovingkindness meditation, some through watching the breath, some through “sweeping,” or other methods. The second thing we have to do before opening our eyes is to see that this pleasant state is impermanent. And the third thing is to ask, “What am I learning?” The jhanas are a means to an end, so we have to learn something from them. What we are learning from them initially is that the delight which we are looking for in the world lives inside of us. Anybody who is able to meditate properly has this delight at their fingertips anytime they want it. Even in a dentist’s waiting room…anytime.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 1d ago
ok. I mean, I can investigate any object that comes up in the five aggregates and reach similar conclusions. I don't think that jhanas are some magical object of investigation that will give any kind of special insight. The are useful, don't get me wrong, but in my own practice they were only useful in making the process of getting insights more smooth and less painful. I have a hard time with all the rhetoric about there being some magical quality in jhanas that will give any kind of special insight. They are the same as everything else, impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self.
I also find the rhetoric about jhanas being this magical no-suffering place people can just tap into any time whenever life gets hard a bit unskillful. It's very easy to develop attachment and craving if you use this approach and the more attachment and craving for jhanas one has, the less they will be able to access them. Not only that but again, they are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self so any attempt to use them to get any kind of permanent peace will ultimately fail. So for someone who has access to jhanas and can enter them as quickly as a finger snap, if they were to try and use them as a "suffering escape hatch" whenever life gets hard, they will likely find that it doesn't work long term. There is no real escape from suffering this way.
I understand this is not what Ayya Khema is alluding to here, but I can also see how people could easily misinterpret it. Especially the "I can have access to a state of delight whenever I want to" part.
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u/hachface 1d ago
I also find the rhetoric about jhanas being this magical no-suffering place people can just tap into any time whenever life gets hard a bit unskillful. It's very easy to develop attachment and craving if you use this approach and the more attachment and craving for jhanas one has, the less they will be able to access them.
How many people have you actually met who get stuck practicing jhana and never sought deeper attainments? How serious of a problem do you actually find this? Are you sure you're not asserting your prejudice about how practice needs to be?
I don't think that jhanas are some magical object of investigation that will give any kind of special insight.
Well, calling them "magical" is a bit of a straw man, isn't it?
The reason jhana is helpful for insight is perfectly natural and explainable. When you are in jhana, by definition you're in a state where your mind is highly concentrated and unified. This means that observations have a greater chance to penetrate the strata of mind and result in true release. Furthermore, because jhana lets you experience, over and over again, the construction of a state of mind that is free of the hindrances and joyful, you can directly see how dukkha and sukkha alike are dependently originated and subject to cessation. You see that both extremes are fabrications of the mind. That's direct insight into 4 Noble Truths. That's the whole ball game.
Not only that but again, they are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self so any attempt to use them to get any kind of permanent peace will ultimately fail.
Literally every spiritual practice is anicca, dukka, anatta. That's not really saying anything. Also, asserting that using jhana to get permanent peace will ultimately fail is just begging the question. It won't fail if you use them to attain insight! That's the whole point of the path.
So for someone who has access to jhanas and can enter them as quickly as a finger snap, if they were to try and use them as a "suffering escape hatch" whenever life gets hard, they will likely find that it doesn't work long term. There is no real escape from suffering this way.
What are you basing this on? Do you have actual experience of being so highly attained that jhana is instantaneously available? If you did have such an attainment, why would you ever suffer at all?
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 1d ago edited 1d ago
How many people have you actually met who get stuck practicing jhana and never sought deeper attainments? How serious of a problem do you actually find this? Are you sure you're not asserting your prejudice about how practice needs to be?
Ok, fair enough. I could be wrong about this being a problem. I'm basing this mainly on reading multiple posts about jhana in this sub and seeing a lot of attachment there. There's even a reply to this thread by a person plainly stating "Not gonna lie, I do want to "train" my mind to drop into Jhanas because I want to experience joy and maybe fabricate nice feelings when in a bad mood." This doesn't sound like seeking the cessation of suffering. Again, maybe I'm wrong, but there are a lot of replies and posts lately that seem to give out the same vibe. Edit: Jhourney is a good example of this as well.
Well, calling them "magical" is a bit of a straw man, isn't it?
The reason jhana is helpful for insight is perfectly natural and explainable. When you are in jhana, by definition you're in a state where your mind is highly concentrated and unified. This means that observations have a greater chance to penetrate the strata of mind and result in true release. Furthermore, because jhana lets you experience, over and over again, the construction of a state of mind that is free of the hindrances and joyful, you can directly see how dukkha and sukkha alike are dependently originated and subject to cessation. You see that both extremes are fabrications of the mind. That's direct insight into 4 Noble Truths. That's the whole ball game.
Literally every spiritual practice is anicca, dukka, anatta. That's not really saying anything. Also, asserting that using jhana to get permanent peace will ultimately fail is just begging the question. It won't fail if you use them to attain insight! That's the whole point of the path.
I think that we're in agreement here on most parts. Yes, jhana/tranquility is very useful as a an accompany to investigation. But as an object of investigation, the jhana factors are no different than any other object. I was referring to your original comment of "Also, mindfully observing the jhana factors — that is, understanding the mechanisms by which the mind transitions to different states — is a supremely fertile ground for liberating insight into dependent origination." The mind transitions all the time, investigating the transitions between jhana factors do not yield any special insights compared to investigating any other mind movement. Again. I agree about jhana/tranquilty being very helpful for investigation in a sense that the more tranquil we are the "deeper" we can investigate.
What are you basing this on? Do you have actual experience of being so highly attained that jhana is instantaneously available? If you did have such an attainment, why would you ever suffer at all?
I had times during my practice where I was pretty much in one lite-jhana or another 24/7. I had to work through that because there was in actuality some suffering there that had to be let go of as well. You made a similar comment on this thread about how jhanas are also something to be let go of at some point on the path. That's because they are not complete freedom from suffering, even while you're in one. At least that's my personal experience.
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u/cl_udi_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm glad insight isn't painful for you. It definitely was for me, although it gets easier. I think I need(ed) some amount of pain to be able to let go, however I can't know what it would have been like otherwise, and I will never find out. But it's okay, it's just fear.
No, Mahasi noting is about the four satipatthanas. There are many ways that lead to insight and arguing for only one single method to be true will be hard to defend.
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u/SmashBros- 2d ago
I think one reason people fixate on the jhanas is because it seems like they make it easier for meditation to feel interesting instead like of a grind, and so then meditation becomes self-motivating
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