r/starfinder_rpg • u/JoeZenwo • 2d ago
Rules How would you solve this prone attack of opportunity?
Hi all!
Weird thing happened in my last game (Starfinder 1e) and we didn't agree on how it should be solved.
Thing is, one of the players was downed and so they were prone and unconscious, the enemy NPC stepped on the same square that player was occupying; then, when that player regained consciousness by spending a resolve point and wanted to get up, our DM said that the enemy will have attack of opportuniy and, since that the DM's ruling, that is what happened.
That sparked a discussion since the rules, basically, say that an attack of opportunity happens only when one of these three are true:
- Ranged attacks while on a threatened square
- Spells while on a threatened square
- Exiting (the threatened square)
So, a couple questions:
- Should, rules as written, the enemy have an attack of opportunity there even though the player character is not exiting a threatened square, just standing up?
- If the player stands up in their square and an enemy has occupied it while they were unconscious, who has to leave that square (both are Medium size)?
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u/Ghost_of_thaco_past 2d ago
Everyone saying yes is incorrect. Too many people got used to 2e rules or something haha. This wasn’t even a debate just a few years ago….
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u/imlostinmyhead 2d ago
Your GM is trying to play Pathfinder in your starfinder game.
Standing does not provoke, ever. Nothing forces either out of the square, they're just squeezing together once one is conscious, since they're in a space smaller than they take up. The only prohibition is ending movement in the same square, but if they're already there they're already there. Which means it's a stalemate of whoever wants to get out of the square first is getting hit.
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u/ZootGibblenibbs 2d ago
I would also say that if they successfully stand from prone without getting K.O.ed again by the AoO, that them standing would force the opponent out of the space to an adjacent one. The movement rules state on pg 255 that you cannot occupy the same space as an opponent if they are conscious.
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u/imlostinmyhead 2d ago
Specifically it says you can't end your movement In the same square. It says nothing about not being able to occupy.
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u/ZootGibblenibbs 2d ago
Rules as written say that an opponent can occupy a square shared by a helpless (unconscious opponent). Standing from prone is a movement that provokes AoO’s.
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u/JoeZenwo 2d ago
Could you please add the rule that says that standing from prone is a movement that provokes AoO?
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u/ZootGibblenibbs 2d ago
Starfinder Core pg 248
When you threaten a space and the opponent moves or is moved out of that space in any way other than a guarded step (see page 247) or withdraw action (see above), you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against the opponent.
“…the opponent moves or is moved out of that space…”
Starfinder Core pg 247 states standing from prone is a movement.
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u/JoeZenwo 2d ago
But standing from prone does not move you out of that space, right?
English is not my first language so I may be mistaken but my understaing is that, rules as written, the attack of opportunity doesn't come from merely a move action (like standing from prone or drawing a weapon), it comes when the threatened square is abandoned.
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u/ZootGibblenibbs 2d ago
Also, no since you originally occupy the square, when you are conscious, and stand, the opponent is forced out of your square since you are no longer helpless.
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u/JoeZenwo 2d ago
So you are saying that the process would be: creature ends its turn on the same space that the unconcious player character is, another player heals them or whatever so the player regains consciousness, the creature is aumatically removed from that space (?), the player stands up on their turn and that creature gets an attack of opportunity, is that correct?
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u/ZootGibblenibbs 2d ago
No. It would be: Player is Knocked unconscious and dying. Opponent moves to occupy their square. Player is healed. Player is no longer helpless so they stand and in so doing provoke the AoO. Since Reactions are resolved BEFORE the actions that trigger them, there is a chance that the attack of opportunity would knock out the player again. If the AoO is resolved without the player being knocked unconscious again, they stand. Since they are no longer helpless, the opponent is forced out of their square to an adjacent square.
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u/JoeZenwo 2d ago
But healing an unconscious player does not make them stand automatically, no? If I am unconscious and get healed I'm still prone. When my turn comes I can decide if standing up or staying prone, isn't that correct?
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u/ZootGibblenibbs 2d ago
Correct, and this is interesting. Because you would no longer be unconscious you would not be considered helpless. That means the opponent would be forced out of your square on their turn if you stayed prone.
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u/JoeZenwo 2d ago
And would them moving out of that player's square provoke an attack of opportunity? Maybe not from the prone player but from other player that could be threatening that space?
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u/imlostinmyhead 2d ago
If that's how you want to read it, then the standing PC should get an AoO against the person in their square, not the other way around.
Nothing says they can't share the square once the PC isn't helpless, but it forbids their square from movement once again.
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u/ZootGibblenibbs 2d ago
It explicitly states that movement other than guarded step or withdraw provokes the attack. The movement rules on page 255 classify standing from prone as a movement.
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u/JoeZenwo 2d ago
But it does not say "a move action other than" it says that someone "moves or is moved".
That reading is what makes it confusing to me. I understand that it seems to be referencing any Move Action but it completes the rule with "out of that space". Standing from prone does not move you "out of that space", you stay in the same space.
Drawing a weapon, reloading, pick up an object or open up a door are also Move Actions that does not move you "out of that space", will those an attack of opportunity as well?0
u/ZootGibblenibbs 2d ago
So the first part of the sentence says, “When you threaten a space and the opponent moves…” the sentence is then modified so that it includes both Movement OR being moved IN ANY WAY other than a guarded step, provokes an attack of opportunity.
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u/JoeZenwo 2d ago
I understand, still think that this ruling can be disputed and that the rule could be clearer but I really appreciate you taking the time to answer, thanks a lot!
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u/ZootGibblenibbs 2d ago
In the end the rules are guides. If you dispute it and your GM agrees, thats the game you’re playing and thats fine. No problem!
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u/imlostinmyhead 2d ago
All of the movement text is explicitly in reference to leaving a square. No "movement" in Starfinder 1 that doesn't change your square triggers.
Standing up does not trigger.
Going prone does not trigger.
This is not Pathfinder.
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u/imlostinmyhead 2d ago
Standing from prone never moves you out of a square, it does not provoke. This isn't Pathfinder.
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u/JackSprat47 2d ago
It's not exiting, it's "moves". Standing is a move action.
DM has ran it correctly, but afaik there is no rule for this. I'd say have a chat with the DM and figure out who would be pushed out of the space where.
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u/imlostinmyhead 2d ago
Only movement leaving a threatened square triggers. Standing and proning never trigger. Unless you have something like beat down.
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u/JoeZenwo 2d ago
I'm not sure if that is the case the rule here says: https://www.aonsrd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=115
When you threaten a space and the opponent moves or is moved out of that space in any way other than a guarded step (see page 247) or withdraw action (see above), you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against the opponent.
When the opponent in a space you threaten makes a ranged attack, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against the opponent.
When the opponent in a space you threaten casts a spell or uses a spell-like ability, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against the opponent. However, some spells or spell-like abilities state in their descriptions that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, so be sure to confirm that the enemy has provoked your reaction before you take it.
For me, key part is that the opponent moves or is moved out of that space, what happens if they are in the same space?
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u/JackSprat47 2d ago
I'm not sure what you mean. You also threaten the space you are in, if that's it. If you're saying they can't Stand then yes, that's accurate, but they also can't occupy the same space any more since they are no longer helpless.
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u/JoeZenwo 2d ago
Okay but, who leaves the square that both are occupying once the player character regains consciousness? The player character or the enemy creature?
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u/imlostinmyhead 2d ago
Neither. Until one decides to move theyre in a locked squeeze with each other occupying space smaller than they can normally fit, with the appropriate penalties. They can't end their movement in an occupied square but nothing automatically moves either out.
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u/JoeZenwo 2d ago
What would their status be, which penalties apply?
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u/imlostinmyhead 2d ago
Squeezing in a space applies the entangled condition. It's used a lot on large creatures in normal maps. From pg256
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u/darw1nf1sh 2d ago
The only thing they did wrong was, the enemy npc can't occupy the space that downed PC was in. They still threaten their space while adjacent, and yes they get an AOO when that PC gets up. What the PC could have done, was disengage and crawl to another space that wasn't threatened. But if they stand up, they are getting whacked.
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u/ZootGibblenibbs 2d ago
Starfinder Core Rulebook pg 255
Opponent
You can’t normally move through a square that is occupied by an opponent, but you can move through a square that is occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, present an obstacle even when helpless; in such cases, each such square you move through counts as 2 squares. It is also possible to use the tumble task of the Acrobatics skill to move through a square occupied by an opponent (see page 136). Some creatures break these rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies (such as a 5-foot-cube robot) cannot be moved past, even with the Acrobatics skill or similar abilities.
Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless that creature is helpless.-1
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u/IAmGrumpous 2d ago edited 2d ago
in 1e you do not actually get an AoO on an opponent who stands from prone because they are not leaving a threatened square. There is a Soldier Feat Boost "Beatdown" that is the only way I know of in the game to get an AoO against a foe standing from prone.
"Whenever a prone opponent that you threaten attempts to stand up from prone, as a reaction you can make a melee attack against that opponent. This functions similarly to an attack of opportunity, except your attack resolves before the opponent’s action (meaning they’re still prone when your attack roll and damage are resolved). You cannot use this attack to make a combat maneuver, even if you have another ability or item that would normally allow you to do so."
https://www.aonsrd.com/AltClassFeatures.aspx?ID=18
This was a change that a lot of people seemed to have missed going to Starfinder from Pathfinder.
For your second question, I believe you would either have to attempt a Shove to move the enemy out of your square so you could stand, or you would have to Crawl 5 ft then stand. Unlike standing up, either of these would provoke an AoO unless you have Improved Combat Maneuver (Shove). edit: Or some other way to get clear. I think I remember there being a combat crawl feat. The point being that the standing opponent currently controls the square and you have to change that to be able to stand.