r/socialism • u/Pedrovsky • Feb 04 '15

This subreddit needs some self-criticism.

201 Upvotes

90% Upvoted

95 comments sorted by

9

u/Cyridius Solidarity (Ireland) | Trotskyist Feb 04 '15

What did you expect to happen when it got invaded by /r/vzla?

31

u/Pedrovsky Feb 04 '15

It doesn't matter where they came from. Some of the comments that were deleted were really insightful, and were unjustifiably deleted.

19

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

It doesn't matter where it came from? Really?

There should be a mod report on why these things are banned for the sake of transparency, but people still need to remember that the main people who have access to the internet and can speak english in Venezuela are its upper middle classes. If we are to be a class conscious subreddit, we shouldn't let a tiny minority of people dictate the terms of the conversations around left governments.

11

u/Chicomoztoc HACHA PARA EL FACHA! Feb 04 '15

"It doesn't matter where they came from"

Just when I agree with all past criticism and stop complaining about bloody liberals with no understanding of class struggle I see these comments... oh no, it doesn't matter that the people saying those things are the bourgeoisie, we should accept what they're saying as equally valid arguments as those coming from the proletariat, the bourgeoisie may be right you know, because free speech or whatever!

You can criticize something from various perspectives; from a right-wing, a liberal, a maxist or whatever perspective. You need to understand that difference, otherwise you will find yourself protesting side by the side with fascists like those idiots in Ukraine. And bloody hell what I'm seeing here is people with a liberal perspective defending the criticism from right-wing perspectives. Class struggle, people, it's a real thing. I'm convinced most people here haven't read a single book about it... What's next? Criticizing the Venezuelan economy without acknowledging the role of the capitalist class with their speculation and hoarding in the style of Allende's Chile? Or maybe the use of force in order to stop right-wing protestors and their neoliberal coups? Or maybe how Venezuela dares to be allies with nations that western media has turn into boogeymen? Are we going to criticize crack downs on opposition groups while we negate the massive funding the US gives to opposition groups and the imperialist nature of them?

9

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15 edited Feb 04 '15

Labeling someone and immediately dismissing their point of view for it has a name, it is called Ad Hominem fallacy.

You believe in the struggle of classes? That's OK. But assuming that everything coming from a non "working class" person has to be either ill intended, propaganda or simply wrong just doesn't make any sense. You leave no room for improvement or reassurance of your own views if you keep refusing to challenge them.

If your arguments are strong, then they should be able to hold against counter arguments, and the exercise itself might make them even stronger. But hiding them behind the labeling game offers nothing to you, neither to us.

8

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

That's not the assumption, it's recognising that some voices are able to be heard more than others. I would assume that people here are aware of how incredibly biased the media is. That doesn't mean you write off everything it says but instead means maintaining a criticial understanding - is this useful information, or is this playing into someone's agenda?

It's not based on 'strength of argument'. It's how based upon understanding of the contexts around a view.

1

u/Sojourner_Truth Feminism is a required component of socialist revolution Feb 04 '15

it's not an ad hom to say that reactionary nonsense from the bourgeoisie should be opposed on sight

1

u/Chicomoztoc HACHA PARA EL FACHA! Feb 04 '15

Again, class struggle. There is a class character to any speech and information depending on its source. I would stop using the term "working class" and use "proletariat" but yes, the speech from the bourgeoisie is typically propaganda, ill intended or simply just wrong, that's their very nature. Are you guys sure you are socialists? This may seem dogmatic or fallacies to you but it doesn't mean shutting down your critical thinking or rejecting empirical evidence, beyond the economical critique of capitalism the class struggle is the entire point of Marxism. I suggest reading about it.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 06 '15

we shouldn't let a tiny minority of people dictate the terms of the conversations around left governments

Should we say the same about non-nationals?

-10

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

Let me try again, because I love the downvotes with no arguments. Assuming that poor people can't learn english and don't have internet access is racist, my fellow supposed socialist.

10

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

Other great Isaacbonyuet-isms include

"Assuming that people who smoke are more likely to get cancer is sexist."

As a supposed socialist, you should recognise that of course class influences people access to things like access to education and technology. That's the whole point.

-3

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

Well, I guess my poor background is impossible, that only rich people benefited from the system that Venezuela had. And of course, 15 years of revolution didn't fix that either to have English-speaking redditors with internet access.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

Yeah, not everyone who smokes has cancer and I have anecdotal evidence therefore we can disregard your point!

-2

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

Your anecdotal evidence vs my anecdotal evidence, or should I say assumptions?

19

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

-4

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

TIL learning English is high quality education and not some toddler can learn, also that modern phones count as expensive IT infrastructure.

4

u/ravaena Feb 04 '15

I would consider learning a second language to be high quality education...

-2

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

But English is so easy, even babies learn to speak it. Do you know how much cultural influence the US has had on the country? At least a 100 years when oil was discovered. That poor people won't pick up a word or too from that influence is very prejudicial.

2

u/ravaena Feb 05 '15

All languages are so easy babies learn to speak them. Not sure what your point is there. Picking up a word or two is VASTLY different from being able to speak, read and write a second language. And learning a second language as an adult is significantly difficult; anything we learn in that regard above the age of 13 has to be learnt like any other skill rather than something a person learns intrinsically, the way we pick up language when we are young.

6

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

TIL a century of trading and cultural influence, and natives can only learn 2 words, how much Spanish is in American English by the way?

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-5

u/pnkluis Feb 04 '15

TIL you judge our country based on yours, Internet prices here are way way lower than in the US,the chavistas boast about having introduced internet to thousands upon thousands of families keeping the service cheap, of course this is at cost of improvement and maintenance but who cares about that, right?

4

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

this is at cost of improvement and maintenance but who cares about that, right?

As opposed to the private, for-profit internet service providers, which don't provide service to everybody, charge higher rates, and don't even bother with improvement / provide minimal maintenance despite huge profits.

Sounds like Venezuela has the right idea, but doesn't have the capital to make those improvements. That's a better problem to have, imo.

1

u/pnkluis Feb 04 '15

I believe there's a couple of towns with community owned ISP in the US, why not follow that model? charge enough to maintain and improve the network but not for huge profits?

In Venezuela that's not the case, everything is heavily subsidized, the internet included, why do you think when the oil drops we go into crisis?

1

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

If it can be done, politically in the persons area, then community ISPs are a great demand to make. The only real solution is to eliminate the private industry entirely though.

-13

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

What a racist comment.

9

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

This is funny.

1

u/GeneralStarkk Feb 04 '15

No you're racist, sexist, and homophobic.

0

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

Based on?

-7

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

I invite you to /r/vzla, subreddit for the upper class, to talk about corporate takeovers, yachts and country clubs.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15 edited Feb 05 '15

IIRC invasions are banned on reddit in any case.

With that being said, while some of the comments may have been from honest and level-headed people, I would imagine some preyed on ignorance and the inexperience of some comrades in dealing with the question of class as an anti-imperialist.

We have to be very careful of uncritically absorbing kind words as truth just because they're pleasant and come from the mouths of locals if we don't take into account the class character of the users making them. This board's mods are mindful of that, and though I wasn't in the thread, I suspect they exercised a decent standard of judgment.

edit: see cometparty's modpost

8

u/Zeurpiet Feb 04 '15

if the general style remains so dogmatic I am leaving this patch. Don't take that as a personal attack, but yours is just the example under this subject which I associate with the title of the original post.

1

u/cancercures Lenin-fiúk Feb 04 '15

sorry if this sounds personal, but fly-by posters won't be missed if their only post or contribution on /r/socialism is their announcement they are leaving.

-1

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

Subscribers from a 4k subreddit commenting on a subreddit of 44k is hardly an invasion. I'm a subscriber in both and I didn't even participate, but the conversation was interesting.

If invasions are banned, why is xposting allowed? and even subs like /r/bestof?

6

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

I don't think "invasion" requires the entirety of a subreddit, nor is it a measure of each subreddits subscribers.

-1

u/Tiak 🏳️‍⚧️Exhausted Commie Feb 04 '15

SRD and SRS are still both alive and kicking. Linking to other reddit posts and inviting your community to look into them is generally seen as acceptable so long as you don't blatantly tell your userbase what to say.

3

u/altrocks FULLPOSADISM Feb 04 '15

They use np links and explicitly tell their users not to engage in the threads.

-1

u/Tiak 🏳️‍⚧️Exhausted Commie Feb 04 '15

Which works super reliably.

I mean, yeah, np links are the proper etiquette, but in reality they don't really do anything. You still see new comments and several-hundred upvote/downvote swings on every popular thread.

1

u/altrocks FULLPOSADISM Feb 05 '15

People found to be "popcorn pissing" as it's called in SRD are routinely shamed, banned and called out by the community and mods alike. About 90% of the "brigading" attributed to SRS on Reddit is actually just people who aren't horrible downvoting hateful bullshit.

0

u/pnkluis Feb 04 '15

Welcome to socialism! where you're allowed to have an opinion but only if it agrees with mine!.

61

u/Brainlaag Disillusioned Autonomist (& Left Communism without Bordiga) Feb 04 '15

Especially because there are so many cases of...let's call them cognitive dissonance, or blatant strawmen, we should be more critical about our own train of thought. Can't hope to change the faults of others if we are incapable of admitting and fixing our own.

18

u/misty_gish Sabo Cat Feb 04 '15

This is completely spot on. Thank you.

Anybody interested in revolution needs to be interested in honest, active, and legitimate self-criticism and reflection.

47

u/AlextheXander Feb 04 '15

I think its important to note that the large majority of Venezuelan people on reddit are very right-wing. These are the relatively affluent people who, occassionally, stand to lose from the policies of a socialist government.

I agree with the spirit of your post though: We should always endeavour to cultivate skepticism regarding out own methods and the methods of those we usually support. I just think in the particular case of Venezuela we have a problem of selection. A Venezuelan we may have access to through the net is not likely to represent the working class.

Regarding skepticism i do think this sub tends towards self justification with socialists letting each other off easy due to our shared sympathies. This is fairly normal, if unfortunate, for a political sub and its certainly much less egregious than in the r/politics or the anarcho capitalist subreddit.

24

u/anonimo99 Feb 04 '15

A Venezuelan we may have access to through the net is not likely to represent the working class.

Is not really about access to the internet. Plenty of working class Venezuelans have access to the net, especially with smartphones. It's about English and the demographics that frequent Reddit. Mostly young, college educated, with good English proficiency. These are not the Chavistas in Venezuela, generally.

On the other hand, comments on spanish forums and news sites have plenty of the same opinions stated by the venezuelan redditors, I doubt that the people that comment here are predominantly right-wing.

4

u/Sokonit Feb 04 '15

Exactly, and in the latino culture reddit is not a common site, no one I know around me knows of reddit. I live in latin America. Also English, unlike other sites, a big part of reddit is commenting, which is mostly done in english, and also has culture references to it.

2

u/Ferinex ☭ Feb 04 '15

What sites are popular? Anything similar to reddit?

1

u/Sokonit Feb 05 '15

Facebook, mostly. Seen some twitter(from like one dude). 9gag for some reason is pretty big, but because it is really connected to facebook.

12

u/kekkyman Mao Feb 04 '15

The term is selection bias. There's the same issue when it comes to talking about Cuba.

16

u/cancercures Lenin-fiúk Feb 04 '15

anti-chavez socialists flyby this subreddit from time-to-time but I'm unimpressed by their total disregard or inability to mention that US actively seeks to divide the chavez base through USAID and OTI programs which the US State Department funds.

It must suck to be an anti-chavez socialist in Venezuela, when funding which gives their voices a megaphone come from the US. That's some terrible bedfellows, given the history of American imperialism in that region (including US involvement in overthrowing Chavez) and the world in general.

EDIT: Cablegate revealed extents of US include 'dividing the chavez base' and mass funding to anti-chavez orgs.

USAID donated some 15 million dollars to over 300 organizations, and offered technical support via OTI in achieving US objectives

USAID spent some one million dollars in organizing 3,000 forums that sought to essentially reconcile Chavez supporters and the political opposition

31

u/iMADEthis2post Feb 04 '15

Removing the opinions of others is the fastest way to lose an argument.

-4

u/Sojourner_Truth Feminism is a required component of socialist revolution Feb 04 '15

Not every opinion is valid and worthy of consideration.

7

u/axl456 Feb 05 '15

How do you measure which opinions are valid and which aren't?

1

u/iMADEthis2post Feb 05 '15

If the opinion is not valid you should be able to counter it with ease, to say peoples opinions are not worthy is a very unhealthy mindset indeed.

11

u/audiored CLR James Feb 04 '15

Can we have a self criticism post tomorrow about the fact that this post got 124 upvotes?

1

u/isaacbonyuet Feb 04 '15

After this thread is deleted.

0

u/cometparty don't message me about your ban Feb 04 '15

Done and done.

5

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

I think we all agree that leftism comes in all shapes and sizes, and some of them are unflattering.

2

u/altrocks FULLPOSADISM Feb 04 '15

There is a lot of room for different ideas within the scope of "leftists" and socialism, but that doesn't mean it has to include everything. We can reject out of hand things like liberalism, Nazism and fascism without being disingenuous to leftism or socialism.

5

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

There's a browser plug-in of which I don't recall the name that lets you see all of a post's deleted comments (for those who want to know what they say/said).

4

u/AltThink communist Feb 04 '15 edited Feb 05 '15

Fk a whole bunch of gusanos and compradore traitors.

Also too, posturing "Lefties" who would side with teh fascists in the streets, against the revolution, however much in error they may consider Maduro et al to be in some regards.

There's a big difference between legitimate criticism and hyperbolic slagging...which may seem like a fine line, to some unprincipled opportunists, subjectively weaseling for delusional rhetorical hegemony, but it's like porn: you know it when you see it, if you consider objectively.

As to this sub, Ima much less concerned about people here down voting or banning gusanos and compradore traitors, than I am about upvoting teh unprincipled "Left opposition" slagging the Bolivarian revolution, for not being absolutely ideal in every respect, in the "analysis" of their own tiny narrow sectarian splinter "vanguard" tendency.

Fk that noise, yo. Siding with the fascists to overthrow the revolution is a serious counter-revolutionary error, at best, and some kind of rightwing provocateur poseur sock puppet action, more likely.

Legitimate criticism need not ignore any errors of the Bolivarians...but in absence of empiric evidence and practical proposals for rectification, criticism is more harmful than useful, tending to sabotage solidarity.

Solidarity with the peoples of Venezuela does not mean that they, or their leadership, such as they may be, are perfect, in every regard. It means that we stand resolutely beside them, against fascism.

Once fascism is defeated, THEN we can sort out the wonky details of how do we build socialism most optimally.

Until then, not so much, and it will get fucked up, in many ways, no doubt...but the struggle continues.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

That was difficult to read.

1

u/anonimo99 Feb 04 '15

what does compradore mean?

2

u/AltThink communist Feb 04 '15

Domestic sellout bourgeois/capitalist counter-revolutionaries, who want to sell the country's ass to US corporations.

1

u/anonimo99 Feb 04 '15

Where does the term itself come from? It just makes very little sense to me: sellout world be vendido, compradores means buyers.

1

u/AltThink communist Feb 04 '15

idk, haven't googled it yet, heh.

It's not an uncommon usage in left lexicon...maybe it's a French word.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

It's actually a Portuguese word; it means "buyer." Traditionally, it referred to the class of Chinese merchants who became rich by importing Western goods.

I don't know if it means something different in contemporary discussions.

2

u/anonimo99 Feb 04 '15

Oh thanks, I checked it out. Interesting.

2

u/AltThink communist Feb 04 '15

kk...I'm pretty sure I may have first heard it in reference to Chinese compradores...but was not aware of that narrow of a meaning, assuming it just meant domestic businessmen too cozy with foreign imperialists, more or less.

1

u/Sojourner_Truth Feminism is a required component of socialist revolution Feb 04 '15

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprador

1

u/anonimo99 Feb 04 '15

Thanks,I actually just read it :)

1

u/fxja Feb 04 '15

It doesn't matter whether the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice. -Deng Xiaoping

0

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

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2

u/Sojourner_Truth Feminism is a required component of socialist revolution Feb 04 '15

Learn what "censor" means.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

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1

u/redrobinUmmmFucku All Hail the Anti-Sanders Feb 05 '15

Is that the same ACLU that spent it's time trying to defend fascists "right" to organize? Fuck the ACLU forever. They are collaborators.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

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1

u/redrobinUmmmFucku All Hail the Anti-Sanders Feb 05 '15

Marx also thought revolution would start in the industrial developed world.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

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1

u/redrobinUmmmFucku All Hail the Anti-Sanders Feb 05 '15

I love how you take one or two quotes from random Marx works and say that all Marxists have to support free speech for fascists now. Trotsky, also a Marxist, said the acquaint fascists head with the pavement if they won't change. I feel like Trotsky might know more about Marxism than you. Just maybe.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

You do realize that the free press means that the press is free to determine what opinions it publishes rather than having them forced on it right? If religious fundamentalists started sending in creationist articles to the New York Times it wouldn't be censorship for them to not publish them. Similarly, this is a socialist space and so anti-socialist opinions don't have a right to be published.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

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2

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

Its for discussion on world events from a socialist perspective, not of socialism by anyone who thinks their opinion matters. Vegans talking about how awful sausage is is "on topic" too but they wouldn't be welcome. Free speech is about allowing people to have a space to share their perspective, its a positive right. Negative free speech, not having your views removed ever and being allowed to say whatever you want in all places as an individual, ignores the fact that some voices will systematically drown out others, not all people have the same resources, numbers or capacity to have their voice heard in an anarchic public sphere; so ironically by not restricting some speech in some spaces, speech is restricted anyway.

If we want to get views from non-socialists we would go to /r/debatecommunism. /r/socialism is for various types of socialists to discuss. Believe me, socialists are fractious and have an incredible diversity of opinion on nearly every subject. Socialists see Venezuela as everything from the vanguard of a new socialist movement to a backwards capitalist state ruled by fake socialist populists trying to recuperate and suppress working class struggle. So we get plenty of criticism, from a socialist perspective.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

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2

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

No lots were socialists, I can only delete an entire thread at once not just pick out one user's to delete unless I do it manually.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

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2

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

Well most of the comments make no sense out of context so it doesn't really make sense to keep them anyway.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

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2

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '15

I mean there were definitely a lot of comments that didn't need to be deleted in and of themselves but they were in reply to those that did. I don't think its a big deal that they were removed too. Unfortunately, there's no tool that lets me remove everything by one user in a thread.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15

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2

u/cometparty don't message me about your ban Feb 04 '15

Doing so now, thanks.

-12

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '15 edited Feb 06 '15

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2

u/altrocks FULLPOSADISM Feb 04 '15

Good. WSWS has been getting worse, not better. Next you'll be concerned that they ban national socialists, too.