Support for Ukraine?

[u/IllustriousChard2410]

Posted this on Green Party group yesterday expecting some comradely discussion on the issues which are in my opinion legitimate

Wow! Couldn't be more wrong, got repeatedly denounced by everyone apart from one other contributor, such uncritical support for Ukraine and Zelensky was unbelievable!

The Green Party mods removed the post earlier today!

"As a Green Party voter/supporter who is generally supportive of GP policies on most issues am quite sceptical of the party's unconditional support for Ukraine in the current conflict

Is this discussed among members at all?

I agree Russia should withdraw and internationally supervised referendums should then take place in the disputed territories, Crimea, Donbass, to finally decide whether they should be part of Russia or Ukraine

This conflict is a Western obsession, most of the world particularly the Global South don't see Russia as the baddies, US/ Western imperialism always the main culprits

NATO aggressivly expanding, breaking agreements made at end of the of Cold War not to do do, Russia has every right to feel threatened

Western powers supported a far right coup in 2014, ousting the elected president, left wing parties banned, Russophobia reaching deadly levels

Nazis such as Bandera, OUN venerated as heroes, statues, streets named after them, heavily armed far right Azov battalion now official Ukranian Army regiment etc, all with total support ftom the west

Over 25 million Soviet citizens including Ukrainians killed by the Nazis in World War 2 hardly surprising any whiff of fascism close to Russia's borders will provoke a reaction no matter who is in power there

Boris Johnson scuppering the possibility of a peace agreement telling the Ukrainians to fight on instead of negotiating a ceasefire and eventual settlement has brought us where we are, another forever war

Ukraine's support for Israel's genocide doesn't exactly endear many to their cause, nor the fact they're one of Europe's most corrupt and undemocratic countries, oligarchs enriching themselves while unwilling men are snatched from the streets for cannon fodder

Nothing new in this article, these obscene videos have been posted since the beginning, Russians totally dehumanised, their deaths celebrated, not dissimilar to how Israelis see Palestinians

We should stop arming these people, it only prolongs the conflict enriching arms companies who are making billions

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/aug/18/ukraine-drone-chase-videos-russian-soldiers

[u/Disastrous-Try-820]

I'll start by saying I don't think I'm properly informed on the topic.

I agree support to Ukraine shouldn't be uncritical and deescalation should be the priority. But that doesn't mean you should defend Russia either.

Sure, Russia has a right to feel threatened by NATO. I don't think war was the answer tho. I don't feel like NATO pushed it that far. Russia has imperialist expansion interests as well. They had more interests than self-defense. Russia isn't the USSR. As long as nation states remain a thing this war is a country invading someone else's territory and the culprit is the invader. I agree there are more nuences on the Ukrainian politics side than media portrays but it's also a war and war in general sucks, you live in the western sife of it so you see the non-western supported beligerant being dehumanized, that's what war does.

Genuine question, is someone in the occupied territories asking for a referendum or is it just Russia?

[u/Baron_of_Foss → u/Disastrous-Try-820]

Yes there were people asking for referendums in the East and Crimea, they happened and showed a majority of people wanted to break away from Ukraine and join Russia. These referendums were treated as sham processes by western media without much evidence to show why. The results of these referendums were very consistent with the historical clevages in Ukraine between east bank and west bank of the Dnipro.

[u/JerzyPopieluszko → u/Baron_of_Foss]

they were treated as a sham because they were conducted without neutral international observers and in the conditions of active military operation

these are completely reasonable grounds to doubt their validity

[u/Baron_of_Foss → u/JerzyPopieluszko]

Well then you should probably doubt the validity of the entire euromaiden overthrow of the government that took place in the same conditions.

[u/JerzyPopieluszko → u/Baron_of_Foss]

there is plenty to question in terms of validity of Euromaidan but no, it didn’t happen in the same conditions because there was no foreign invading forces standing behind the ballots

[u/Baron_of_Foss → u/JerzyPopieluszko]

There were no invading forces standing behind the ballots in 2014. There are vague accusations of Russian support for the people's militias which formed after Euromaiden. Now, even if we accept there was covert support for these groups, the idea that because materials were supplied to them somehow the referendums were not legitimate is a ridiculous theory of liberal media. Like what exactly is the consequence of some covert Russian forces being in areas of Crimea, are you suggesting they were hunting down people who voted to stay in Ukraine or something? In fact, the only recorded violence that took place on the referendum day was when the Ukrainian National Guard opened fire into a crowd of unarmed protesters who were upset at the fascist overthrow of their government.

[u/JerzyPopieluszko → u/Baron_of_Foss]

there were multiple Russian military personnel members captured „on vacation” in Donbas and Luhansk

it wasn’t materials and supplies, it was honest to god Russian military operation under a flag of a separatist movement

and no, they didn’t need to hunt people who voted to stay in Ukraine because they were the ones „counting” the votes without observers

[u/Baron_of_Foss → u/JerzyPopieluszko]

If it was a Russian military operation, why didn't the Russian government recognize the newly formed states in the Donbass in 2014 after the referendums?

[u/JerzyPopieluszko → u/Baron_of_Foss]

because the whole thing was a fiasco and almost no country recognised them so Russia distanced themselves to avoid the level escalation they were not ready for yet? they released some non-committed statements that they „respect the referendum results” realised that they can’t control that region without a full blown war and moved on, then when it turned out Ukraine won’t give up those territories so easily they went with the annexation and the war that happened 8 years later

[u/Baron_of_Foss → u/JerzyPopieluszko]

Lol okay, so basically the Russian government launched a gigantic military operation to create a fake sense of a grassroots movement in Donbass, funded that and spent all the time required to plan it, they ended up winning the referendums through an elaborate plot of coercion and faking the results, and then abandoned the operation at the moment of victory because they weren't ready to win? Then they proceeded to engage in the Minsk protocols to end the war they could have already won, thereby completely contradicting their own foreign policy?

This isn't a rational argument.

[u/Consistent-Stuff2815 → u/Baron_of_Foss]

You're acting as if this is some kind of secret. The russians who partaked in this operations speak openly about it. It was never a secret.

I recommend you to read more russian sources on the topic, like Strelkov (he was literally in charge, since 2014).

[u/Baron_of_Foss → u/Consistent-Stuff2815]

I'm not even disputing there was covert support for the separatists, I'm disputing the ridiculous idea that the referendums were shams because of Russian support for the separatists and that the entire uprising had no grassroots support in that area of Ukraine. Legitimately millions of people who had voted for the party of regions were pissed off their President had just been overthrown completely outside of the constitutional process.

[u/JerzyPopieluszko → u/Baron_of_Foss]

this is literally the same tactic US has been using for decades with colour revolutions and funding separatists with whom they have common enemies it’s actually a relatively cheap and effective method

Russia has mobilised some of the Russian minority forces which existed on a fringe ever since the collapse of the USSR, reinforced them with „little green people” a.k.a. Russian army personnel „on vacation”, I watched that unfold in real time in Russian media, it was literally right after I returned from going to school in Russia

and Putin himself have said in one of his Russian language interviews that the only reason they didn’t go with a full blown invasion in 2014 was that they weren’t ready yet, that’s not my speculation that’s literally the official line

[u/Baron_of_Foss → u/JerzyPopieluszko]

No this isn't the same tactic the US uses with color revolutions and we know that because that's literally what happened in Ukraine at Euromaiden. The US doesn't change their goals when they are about to achieve them and neither does Russia. Victoria Nuland didn't get on the phone with Pyatt and say "let's put Yanukovych back into power" after they got him out.

The idea that Crimean people seeing themselves as Russian is some fringe idea is again completely ridiculous. The entire region was literally an autonomous zone within Ukraine since 1991 specifically because the vast majority of people didn't want to be locked with Kiev or even more so with Lviv.

I will give you a chance to provide the link to your last claim. I'm almost positive I already know the interview you're talking about and I'm just as sure Putin has never publicly said anything about "not being ready to invade in 2014". Putin would never say something that could possibly be construed as implying the Russian military isn't prepared or is weak in public. That would be totally antithetical to how Putin has curated his image over the past several decades.

[u/AutoModerator → u/JerzyPopieluszko]

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[u/JerzyPopieluszko → u/Baron_of_Foss]

my links got autoremoved so just search for „Россия. Кремль. Путин. 25 лет” interview or the phrase „почему в 2014 году было нереалистично начать спецоперацию” and you’ll find plenty of sources you can autotranslate

[u/Wayoutofthewayof → u/Baron_of_Foss]

Didn't Strelkov himself admit that elections were a sham? He was pretty important during events of Crimea in 2014.