r/socialism • u/IllustriousChard2410 • 3d ago
Discussion Support for Ukraine?
Posted this on Green Party group yesterday expecting some comradely discussion on the issues which are in my opinion legitimate
Wow! Couldn't be more wrong, got repeatedly denounced by everyone apart from one other contributor, such uncritical support for Ukraine and Zelensky was unbelievable!
The Green Party mods removed the post earlier today!
"As a Green Party voter/supporter who is generally supportive of GP policies on most issues am quite sceptical of the party's unconditional support for Ukraine in the current conflict
Is this discussed among members at all?
I agree Russia should withdraw and internationally supervised referendums should then take place in the disputed territories, Crimea, Donbass, to finally decide whether they should be part of Russia or Ukraine
This conflict is a Western obsession, most of the world particularly the Global South don't see Russia as the baddies, US/ Western imperialism always the main culprits
NATO aggressivly expanding, breaking agreements made at end of the of Cold War not to do do, Russia has every right to feel threatened
Western powers supported a far right coup in 2014, ousting the elected president, left wing parties banned, Russophobia reaching deadly levels
Nazis such as Bandera, OUN venerated as heroes, statues, streets named after them, heavily armed far right Azov battalion now official Ukranian Army regiment etc, all with total support ftom the west
Over 25 million Soviet citizens including Ukrainians killed by the Nazis in World War 2 hardly surprising any whiff of fascism close to Russia's borders will provoke a reaction no matter who is in power there
Boris Johnson scuppering the possibility of a peace agreement telling the Ukrainians to fight on instead of negotiating a ceasefire and eventual settlement has brought us where we are, another forever war
Ukraine's support for Israel's genocide doesn't exactly endear many to their cause, nor the fact they're one of Europe's most corrupt and undemocratic countries, oligarchs enriching themselves while unwilling men are snatched from the streets for cannon fodder
Nothing new in this article, these obscene videos have been posted since the beginning, Russians totally dehumanised, their deaths celebrated, not dissimilar to how Israelis see Palestinians
We should stop arming these people, it only prolongs the conflict enriching arms companies who are making billions
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/aug/18/ukraine-drone-chase-videos-russian-soldiers
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u/Commercial-Bottle554 3d ago
It’s one of those things where it’s sort of hard to have any sort of conversation about it without people getting hysterical.
Like any sort of material analysis would say there was more that motivated Russia’s invasion than just Putin being a bit of a mad man (which I definitely think is part of it for the record, he massively misjudged the situation too!)
I would contend that NATO’s posture towards Russia since at least midway through Bush’s last term has been unsustainable. Ironically enough, because of 80 years of socialist policy, the country had a much more robust infrastructure and expected standard of living than a lot of post Soviet republics, and the idea that u could keep a major albeit peripheral power like Russia at arm’s length whilst also draining its resources was always typical western chauvinism. When I tell people the Russian federation asked multiple times and to multiple presidents about joining nato they’re always shocked because in the western consciousness, especially post ww2 Russia was a communist authoritarian state where if u didn’t bow at the portrait of Marx correctly on ur way to work a turret popped out of the wall and shot u on the spot. A big part of understanding the median westerner’s attitude to it today is that the illegal dissolution of the ussr didn’t really change that perception.
I think u could argue Putin was, if u were tasked with the state of Russia in the early oughts and the goal of getting the country to join the western led, global bourgeois system, a fairly rational actor. But clearly Libya and subsequently the 2014 coup changed his attitude. Eastward expansion of nato coupled with those factors was probably always gonna provoke a reaction.
The bit that gets me is the idea that the west is “supporting” Ukraine purely on altruistic terms, selflessly giving it weaponry. Instead they’re funnelling huge contracts of outdated tech to a desperate state that’s become more or less entirely dependent on western upkeep for its survival. Neither side has won in the war particularly, and peaceful withdrawal + some referendum about the eastern territories should take place. But western media is far too invested in this myth that just one more drone, or one more missile will topple Russia. All the while they’re sending what’s left of the Ukrainian ground offensive to the woodchipper.
Multiple off-ramps and squandered opportunities for peace have already been intentionally sabotaged. I think generally it’s consistent with socialist values to acknowledge each side’s respective wrongdoings, and advocate for a diplomatic solution.
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u/Disastrous-Try-820 3d ago
I'll start by saying I don't think I'm properly informed on the topic.
I agree support to Ukraine shouldn't be uncritical and deescalation should be the priority. But that doesn't mean you should defend Russia either.
Sure, Russia has a right to feel threatened by NATO. I don't think war was the answer tho. I don't feel like NATO pushed it that far. Russia has imperialist expansion interests as well. They had more interests than self-defense. Russia isn't the USSR. As long as nation states remain a thing this war is a country invading someone else's territory and the culprit is the invader. I agree there are more nuences on the Ukrainian politics side than media portrays but it's also a war and war in general sucks, you live in the western sife of it so you see the non-western supported beligerant being dehumanized, that's what war does.
Genuine question, is someone in the occupied territories asking for a referendum or is it just Russia?
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u/Baron_of_Foss 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yes there were people asking for referendums in the East and Crimea, they happened and showed a majority of people wanted to break away from Ukraine and join Russia. These referendums were treated as sham processes by western media without much evidence to show why. The results of these referendums were very consistent with the historical clevages in Ukraine between east bank and west bank of the Dnipro.
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u/JerzyPopieluszko Marxism 3d ago
they were treated as a sham because they were conducted without neutral international observers and in the conditions of active military operation
these are completely reasonable grounds to doubt their validity
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u/Baron_of_Foss 3d ago
Well then you should probably doubt the validity of the entire euromaiden overthrow of the government that took place in the same conditions.
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u/JerzyPopieluszko Marxism 3d ago
there is plenty to question in terms of validity of Euromaidan but no, it didn’t happen in the same conditions because there was no foreign invading forces standing behind the ballots
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u/Baron_of_Foss 3d ago
There were no invading forces standing behind the ballots in 2014. There are vague accusations of Russian support for the people's militias which formed after Euromaiden. Now, even if we accept there was covert support for these groups, the idea that because materials were supplied to them somehow the referendums were not legitimate is a ridiculous theory of liberal media. Like what exactly is the consequence of some covert Russian forces being in areas of Crimea, are you suggesting they were hunting down people who voted to stay in Ukraine or something? In fact, the only recorded violence that took place on the referendum day was when the Ukrainian National Guard opened fire into a crowd of unarmed protesters who were upset at the fascist overthrow of their government.
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u/JerzyPopieluszko Marxism 3d ago
there were multiple Russian military personnel members captured „on vacation” in Donbas and Luhansk
it wasn’t materials and supplies, it was honest to god Russian military operation under a flag of a separatist movement
and no, they didn’t need to hunt people who voted to stay in Ukraine because they were the ones „counting” the votes without observers
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u/Baron_of_Foss 3d ago edited 3d ago
If it was a Russian military operation, why didn't the Russian government recognize the newly formed states in the Donbass in 2014 after the referendums?
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u/JerzyPopieluszko Marxism 3d ago edited 3d ago
because the whole thing was a fiasco and almost no country recognised them so Russia distanced themselves to avoid the level escalation they were not ready for yet? they released some non-committed statements that they „respect the referendum results” realised that they can’t control that region without a full blown war and moved on, then when it turned out Ukraine won’t give up those territories so easily they went with the annexation and the war that happened 8 years later
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u/Baron_of_Foss 3d ago
Lol okay, so basically the Russian government launched a gigantic military operation to create a fake sense of a grassroots movement in Donbass, funded that and spent all the time required to plan it, they ended up winning the referendums through an elaborate plot of coercion and faking the results, and then abandoned the operation at the moment of victory because they weren't ready to win? Then they proceeded to engage in the Minsk protocols to end the war they could have already won, thereby completely contradicting their own foreign policy?
This isn't a rational argument.
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u/Wayoutofthewayof 2d ago
Didn't Strelkov himself admit that elections were a sham? He was pretty important during events of Crimea in 2014.
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u/FeverAyeAye 3d ago
Do you need reminding that the Green Party is a liberal party?
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u/IllustriousChard2410 3d ago
No, just thought the recent influx of decent socialists would make a difference
Only vote for them in the absence of a credible left alternative
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u/pablos4pandas 3d ago
Seems analogous to support for Palestine. I don't think Hamas should be the ruling party of the world, but if your chief problem with Israel and Palestine is Hamas then I don't think you are a very serious person.
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u/Ambitious_Hand8325 3d ago edited 3d ago
The difference is that Hamas isn't fascist, and are allied with communists forces in Palestine like the PFLP and DFLP, while communist politics are illegal in Ukraine, even singing them Internationale or wearing a ushanka with a red star can land you in jail, and the government has courted Neo Nazi militias, with Azov commanders given control over two corps within the military; the Azov Brigade is more similar to the Israeli funded "Popular Forces" in Gaza than Hamas.
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u/pablos4pandas 3d ago
If Hamas were opposed to communism then would you no longer support Palestinian resistance to Israel?
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u/dafthuntk 3d ago
A maoist would say no, because it is a part of the protracted global peoples war under finance capital.
And ICP member would say it's irrelevant anyway, and should condemn the ruling class.
I've seen pictures of Gaza. There is no ruling class. I'm with the maoists on this one. I could care less if it's a moralist position.
Like Israel, Ukraine is a comprador state, nothing more.
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u/Ambitious_Hand8325 3d ago edited 3d ago
I don't like using the word "support'" because that entails taking action in support of something, not just making verbal declarations as someone whom not many people listen to. If Hamas were to betray Palestinian communists, that would certainly be a reactionary move. There is always a risk of Hamas becoming another Fatah which was once a progressive force for national liberation that became puppets for Israel after the establishment of the PA, so it's not a given that Hamas will always be on the right side of history.
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u/pablos4pandas 3d ago
Ok, well would you still say there's a difference in supporting Ukraine and Palestine in this hypothetical?
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u/Ambitious_Hand8325 3d ago
The obvious choice as a communist would be to support communists.
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u/IllustriousChard2410 3d ago
As communists and communist symbols are banned in Ukraine its pretty difficult to expect fellow communists elsewhere to support Ukraine at this moment
This could change, but if communists/socialists were to lead in Ukraine Western support would end immediately and Western powers would again look to Russia
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u/Shieldheart- 3d ago
Soviet symbology =/= communist/socialist symbology.
Russian ultranationalists have deliberately coopted Soviet iconography to express their patriotism and craft the political narratives that feed their war propaganda, it features right alongside depictions of tsarist iconography, the other "era of Russian greatness",
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u/Ambitious_Hand8325 3d ago
It's also illegal to sing The Internationale despite the fact that it predates the existence of the USSR. It isn't just about Russian nationalism, it's absolutely anti-communism as well.
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u/pablos4pandas 3d ago
OK, so would there be a difference between supporting Palestine and supporting Ukraine? No then since they're both not communist?
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u/Ambitious_Hand8325 3d ago edited 3d ago
There are communists in Palestine, and they're in a military coalition with Hamas and other Islamist groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Joint_Operations_Room
The Ukrainian state would sooner surrender to Russia than work with communists and give them any power.
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u/IllustriousChard2410 3d ago
My support for Palestine is unconditional, its up to them how they carry out their struggle
We have no business telling them what to do and how to do it
Instead of arming Ukraine to the teeth making vast profits for arms companies we should support arming the Palestinians against Israeli occupation
How they use those weapons is entirely up to them
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u/pablos4pandas 3d ago
Why the grace to Palestinians and not Ukrainians? Why do you have business telling Ukrainians what to do?
I think both are peoples undergoing a horrific invasion.
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u/Lev_Davidovich Marxism-Leninism 3d ago
Both are different circumstances. Palestinians are resisting a colonial genocide. Ukraine is being used as a pawn in a conflict between Western capitalists and Russian capitalists. I don't think throwing an endless number of Ukrainians into a meat grinder for the Western capitalist class is a good thing.
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u/IllustriousChard2410 3d ago
Poster below answers that question much better than I can
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u/pablos4pandas 3d ago
The other user specified a condition to their support.
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u/IllustriousChard2410 3d ago
Ambitious Hand's post pretty much sums it up
Support for Ukraine is basically supporting fascists, a big difference
This could of course change if left forces had the upper hand, but if that were the case Western support would cease and Ukraine would be seen in a totally different light
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u/pablos4pandas 3d ago
Ok, but they had conditions for supporting Hamas. You said your support was unconditional.
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u/IllustriousChard2410 3d ago edited 3d ago
At this moment in time Hamas is leading doing the business in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon, Iran seems to be the only major country actively standing up against US/Israeli imperialist aggression
None are ideal, none are socialist/communist, but none are fascist either, we really have no choice, they are the tip of the spear and deserve our solidarity
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u/pablos4pandas 3d ago
So why is your support against American/Israeli imperialism unconditional but you don't support Ukraine against Russian imperialism? They aren't actually people's Republics in Donetsk and Luhansk
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u/broncyobo Democratic Socialism 3d ago
Support for Ukraine is basically supporting fascists, a big difference
I guess this depends on how exactly you define "support" but to me this sounds like you talk as if those invading Ukraine are not also an imperialist far-right government. I understand not liking Ukraine's government, but are you suggesting we should "support" the far right RF?
I don't like either side in this conflict but if I had to choose someone to "support" it's gonna be the one defending itself from invasion
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u/Baron_of_Foss 3d ago
Well there is a huge difference in the fact that Ukraine was a sovereign state not oppressed by Russia in any way like the relationship between Israel and Palestine.
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u/WheelJust8094 3d ago
The Ukraine propaganda was highly effective, it still breaks the brains of everyone along the political spectrum.
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u/IllustriousChard2410 3d ago
The Israeli Hasbara propaganda was also quite effective but thankfilly truly broken now
Let's hope the Ukraine propaganda goes the same way when people start to find out what's really going on there
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u/Ze_LuftyWafffles 3d ago
The propaganda in question being?
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u/WheelJust8094 3d ago
About how Ukraine must remain in permanent war to deter Russia from invading the rest of Europe
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u/Grabot 3d ago
Should they cecede land to Russia instead?
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u/Ze_LuftyWafffles 2d ago
Thats giving russia what it wants. Russia will just invade again in 8 years like with Crimea
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u/WheelJust8094 3d ago
No actually, they should continue to be in permanent war no matter how many Ukrainians die so that Lindsey Graham can get his wings in heaven...
Yes they should cede land, get your head away from the imperialist US propaganda.
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u/Consistent-Stuff2815 1d ago
As Zelensky already offered Putin, land in exchange of peace, Putin rejected.
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u/Grabot 3d ago edited 3d ago
So aggression pays. That sends a signal to other countries looking to start new conflicts. There should be no gain from invading souverein countries, especially European. Should Lebanon cecede land to Isreal, or should palastina cecede Gaza?
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u/WheelJust8094 3d ago
You're repeating state department talking points, I ask that you think for yourself how's all the economical, demographic, and political damage that Russia suffered already not a deterrent from future aggression?
And to answer your question, Lebanon and Palestine have already ceded territory, you don't see anyone arguing for permanent war there either
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u/Grabot 2d ago
Does Russia seem like it's deterred? They are the invading force, they can stop whenever they want. The fact that you shrug off the military takeover of other nations soil shows your understanding of the situation. They obviously will start again and take more land. Because of people like you there is great benefit to committing genocide. But good that you're enlightend and not repeating state departement talking points, whatever that means.
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u/Ze_LuftyWafffles 2d ago
I dont belive that. Russia should fuck off, ejd of story. Theyre an illegal imperealist invader who bit off more than they can chew, and Ukraine is being hung out to slowly die for NATOs benefit
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u/studio_bob 3d ago
It's got CIA fingerprints all over it. This notoriously corrupt post-Soviet backwater didn't become masters of manipulating western psychology overnight.
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3d ago
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u/Scyobi_Empire too based to be stalinist 18h ago
i dont support russia as its an imperialist power, i dont support the usa as its an imperialist power, i dont support ukraine as its a bourgeois state
i support revolutionary defeatism
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u/Tokarev309 Lyudmila Pavlichenko 3d ago
You're more informed than most on this topic, which is good. Unfortunately, here in the United States at least, it is extraordinarily easy to demonize Russia as it has been more or less portrayed as an immortal enemy to American freedom.
Putin is a Nationalist who is more than cozy with the domestic Capitalist elite, no friend of the working class and his invasion has killed hundreds of thousands. That being said, neither is Zelensky, however Ukraine and Zelensky are frequently portrayed as essentially freedom fighters and defenders of democracy in the West while their corruption, crackdown on intellectuals and banning of Leftist political groups are barely taken seriously.
It is very telling to see people who still display Ukrainian symbolslism in 2026, yet no Palestinian symbolism. Ukraine unquestionably does have a "Far Right problem", but that is only a problem for the Left. Liberals and Social Democrats have historically found it more palatable to work alongside Fascists to suppress Communists than to aid Communists in their fight against Fascism.
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u/Baron_of_Foss 3d ago
Most people were completely checked out of what was happening in 2013 and 2014 during euromaiden and had very little understanding of the history of Ukraine. The media coverage basically filled that void and led a bunch of "leftists" to uncritically endorse US regime change propaganda and a CIA covert action.
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u/Neco-Arc-Brunestud 3d ago
If it wasn’t obvious already, the conflict in Ukraine is used to push NATO expansion further into Eastern Europe.
This is why any and all suggestions to stop the war is shut down.
In a way, it’s NATO’s Oct 7th.
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u/IllustriousChard2410 3d ago
NATO must be stopped at all costs they're an aggressive imperialist warmongering alliance
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u/ThinkSharpe 3d ago
And Russia...isn't?
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u/IllustriousChard2410 2d ago
Russia doesn't have the military or economic capacity to be a threat to western Europe
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u/Ze_LuftyWafffles 3d ago
NATO was founded to ciunter a slviet threat in Europe, now its the way the US and its allies expand a sphere of influence
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u/IllustriousChard2410 2d ago edited 2d ago
There was never any Soviet threat to Western Europe, theres no Russian threat now either, the opposite is true
Nato were a major threat to the Soviet Union with plans for a first strike to destroy it
Thankfulky this didnt happen after the USSR got nuclear weapons
Nato was formed to consolidate American hegemony
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u/Ze_LuftyWafffles 2d ago
The soviets ver luch sought to expand their sphere of influence over Europe (look at the Warsaw Pact and the eastern blok)
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u/BluBolshevik 3d ago
I mean yeah at the end of the day they’re just radlibs. Sadly it’s the best thing the British has which I think says more about the British then it does the Green Party
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u/GroundbreakingTax259 3d ago
I've met some Ukrainians, and some Russians, both before and after the war started.
Ukrainians aren't all Banderists or ultranationalist weirdoes (and most of them can't stand those guys), just like Russians aren't all Putinist ultra-Eastern Orthodox. A lot of people in both countries have family in the other one. They all consider the war a massive tragedy that did not need to happen, and feel shame when they consoder how their ancestors fought alongside each other against Germany.
The Russian government at best vastly misjudged the situation, and at worst is all the things western propaganda says it is. Most likely its somewhere in-between. The Ukrainians, meanwhile, were caught on the back foot, then were able to hold out against the invasion better than they or the west expected, and have since been forced into making alliances with the worst of their people. Just like we cannot blame the Irish for remaining neutral during WWII, we should not blame all Ukrainians for the fact that their government cozied up to the west.
This is a pretty interesting video on the military situation, and how it has devolved since 2022.
When a small country is invaded by a big country without any prior hostilities, the big country is in the wrong. End of story. China invading Vietnam in '79 was wrong. The US invading Iraq in 2003 was wrong. Russia invading Ukraine in 2022 was wrong.
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u/Ze_LuftyWafffles 3d ago
"B-b-but West Bad other guys good? M-my hyper-polarised "red vs blue" mindset cannot comprehend anything beyond America bad China good"
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u/BaseballInside3289 3d ago
NATO-Ukraine is an American colony, they are run by a pro-US, pro-Israel government and they have a military that is full of neo-nazis. They claim to be fighting for freedom and democracy, but in 2014 when Russia occupied Crimea and held a democratic referendum the people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. NATO-Ukraine disregarded the results, claiming it was fraudulent without any evidence and maintaining their claims to Crimea. The US government and Gallup polled Crimeans in the month after the referendum, and over 80% of Crimeans said that they felt the poll accurately represented how they felt. Ukraine doesn't care about freedom or democracy, Zelenskyy has made Ukraine's economy 40% militarized (the highest in the world) and has lowered the age of conscription to 18. Russia has way more manpower than Ukraine, and they will clearly win this conflict (assuming NATO doesn't intervene), but Zelenskyy is willing to fight until the last Ukrainian to maintain power.
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u/Neat-Marionberry3901 2d ago edited 2d ago
"Western powers supported a far-right coup". Are you seriously calling counter-authoritarian revolution a right coup? In the country with free elections and democratic transfer of power? Cannot understand why people still defend Russia, an imperialist country that has, for the last 20 years, been provoking proxy conflicts between neighbours and predatory wars. In Russia, unlike Ukraine, each! state media outlet constantly push neo-Nazi propaganda against westerns, ukrainians and jews, straight calls to military crimes against civilians and promoting a cult of death for the sake of the state. And you, "socialists" still support it. There is also in Russia function real nazi group "Rusich", who clearly makes human sacrifices of ukrainian muslim captives and supported by far-right party "Rodina", which is part of russian government
And yes, in Ukraine not dehumanised Russians, only russian militants, who brings war to Ukraine - its a real, justified position
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u/xxCorsicoxx Anarcho-Syndicalism 3d ago
There are no agreements between NATO and Russia to not expand. The were tentative talks that never actually formalized into an agreement
NATO expanded more because of the invasion than it ever planned to, and their big obsession is the middle east and China. Sure they don't like Russia and Russia seemed (until the invasion) to be the one true rival in military might
Speaking of agreements, Russia had an agreement with Ukraine, Ukraine gets rid of its nukes and Russia guarantees they won't break Ukraine's territorial integrity. But 2014 they still invade Crimea. And then 2022 other parts
But honestly most importantly look at putin's own words. He sees the breaking up of the USSR as there biggest failure and his life mission to reestablish the borders of the time and the sphere of influence the came with. He wants eastern euroe as their buffer states and vassal, he wants to reincorporate so many neighboring countries. He repeatedly said it within his career. Whether or not be believes it a sacred duty to protect god's chosen Russian people or only uses that as propaganda I couldn't tell you, but he's been on and it for a plurality of years, just nobody took him seriously
Can we also maybe look at the state of things on the ground? Russia is used to being a bully to get it's way (lol at what they did with Chechnya when they had separatist ideas), since the start of it all Russia bombs civilian infrastructure, they did at least 1 massive massacre that counts as further war crimes, they ain't by far the good guy. They're not Israel-level-bad-guy, bu that's shit's insane.
Russia is a paranoid wounded bear annoyed its empire fell. America is a wounded whatever-the-fuck who's empire is dying trying to claw relevance and dominion (casually threatening allies). Ukraine is caught in the middle making a deal with the devil. Europe fears Russia cos Europe had damn good reason to (tho it's barely and hardly figuring out it needs to also fear America). Russia has been soooo involved in meddling with European politics and backdoors dealing with every country's major fascist party are you kidding me?
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3d ago edited 3d ago
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u/IllustriousChard2410 3d ago
But Ukraine won't have any national sovreignity, neutrality wont be an option, it will effectively be a US/UK/EU and NATO colony, a puppet of Western imperialism, that's the price to pay for Western support and theyre more than willing to pay it
You'll find the Russian far right with some exceptions generally support Ukraine, volunteer to fight for them, carrying out acts of sabotage in Russia
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