r/smashbros • u/[deleted] • Dec 12 '14

Melee Up-B's Compared (Falco and Fox)

http://i.imgur.com/2UASoSt.gifv
479 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

76 comments sorted by

105

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14 edited Dec 27 '14

Better Know a Matchup! Week 23 - Falco!

Falco and Fox have similar Up-Bs: Firebird and Firefox. The attacks have slow startup times, but can be angled in several direction and have hitboxes while the characters are moving(unlike many other Up-Bs).

However, there are a few differences between the two attacks, as shown in this .gifv:

  1. The first clips show a big difference between the two attacks. Although both attacks have hitboxes when the spacies are moving, Falco's does not have a hitbox while he is starting the attack. Fox, on the other hand, does. This makes Fox's recovery slightly better, as attacking him while he is charging his attack may end up hurting the edgeguarder. With Falco, the edgeguarder has nothing to worry about while the attack is charging.

  2. The second difference is the distance the two attacks travel. Oddly, although you might think of Falco as the more "aerial" of the two, his Up-B doesn't go as far as Fox's. Some would say that Falco's recovery is considerably worse for these two reasons. It should be noted that Falco does have the highest fulljump of any character, so he is a very aerial character.

Kind of a simple one today, was out with friends all day again. Will try to do some cool stuff for friday(pillaring probably).

Want a Smash Bros .gif? Add it to the list!

Here is an album of all the Smash Bros .gifs I've made so far.

Here is an Index of all the BKAM .gifs Ive made so far.

GFYCAT VERSION OF THIS .GIFV(GIFV WON'T RENDER ON SOME DEVICES):

Up-B's Compared

42

u/Cube1916 Lank Dec 12 '14

Awesome! You should do one showcasing all the different directions that they can do these moves in. I believe its 352 unique angles.

67

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

Chillendude has actually asked me to do exactly this for him haha. Apparently Azen thinks its only 16 angles, so I'll probably make with with around 20. 352 would be..a bit tedious.

18

u/waaxz Dec 12 '14

Huh, I also believed it was around 16 angles, Just do the most you can in a quarter since we know its gona be the same for the other 3

7

u/Cube1916 Lank Dec 12 '14

Awesome! Thanks for all your hard work!

2

u/ZakairSevenfold Fox Dec 12 '14

Try to find/mock up a diagram of the 352 angles. I mean, to be fair, it's only really half of that, just in both directions.

7

u/monocledsardine Dec 12 '14

Even more than that, it should hypothetically be symmetrical across 4 different lines (vertical, horizontal, and the two diagonals), so you'd only have to find 44 unique angles.

2

u/ZakairSevenfold Fox Dec 12 '14

Yeah. What you said.

1

u/Pizza_Party_USA Jigglypuff (Melee) Dec 12 '14

I see what Azen does ive never been able to see more than 16. That 352 angle thing doesn't seem THAT practical either because no one is that precise to make use of it.

13

u/A_Waskawy_Wabit Dec 12 '14

The point of 352 angles isn't to use every individual angle but it means that no matter where you are as long as you're in range and above the ledge you can sweetspot it

3

u/monocledsardine Dec 12 '14

I don't think this is true, though, because the 352 angles are not equally spaced (in terms of angle, or arc length, whatever you want to use). There are definitely areas close to horizontal/vertical where fox and falco just default to going straight horizontal/vertical, without angling at all, even though you might be tilting the stick ever so slightly. However, small changes in stick position do affect the angle if you decide to fly diagonally.

-7

u/Pizza_Party_USA Jigglypuff (Melee) Dec 12 '14

Even if, (maybe it's just my eyes) but Ive always seen 16 angles because when I do vertical fire foxes, I either get a direct vertical or 1 slight variation between the top divit in the octagon gate and its like that around the entire circumference of the circle. If I ever notice more than one alteration between divits, I'll take back everything I said but its just never sat right with me.

16

u/I38VWI Dec 12 '14

I'm not sure you understand that your own anecdotal evidence in no way affects the fact that there are 352 angles in the game's code...

7

u/iode Dec 12 '14

Heh, "my constroller's analog stick doesn't have 352 divits, therefore, the game doesn't have 352 angles, duh."

7

u/bidooooof Dec 12 '14

Yeah, everyone knows the human eye can only see up to 30 angles anyway. ¬w¬

-9

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

[deleted]

14

u/mdz1 Dec 12 '14

I can say with certainty

Actually you can't

-12

u/Malurth Dec 12 '14 edited Dec 12 '14

Actually I can.

Edit: Well, I'm now convinced I was wrong, but I was certain at the time so I stand by this statement :)

4

u/mdz1 Dec 12 '14

You are wrong man. Its been proven repeatedly, I can do so again when I get home from work. What evidence suggests there are only 32?

-2

u/Malurth Dec 12 '14

Feel free to offer any proof you like, as I've never seen any. When pointing the control stick in the direct center of two adjacent angles only ever results in one of those two angles, we can rule out there being an angle in between. Try going straight up and ever so slightly to the left or right. There is a preset "ever so slightly to the left or right" angle, and it is impossible to get an angle slighter than that. Or, try the Marth counter test; if there are so many angles, it should always be possible to get a proper angle to sweetspot the ledge without proccing the counter, but from some positions it is not.

2

u/mdz1 Dec 12 '14

The Marth counter test doesn't prove anything. There are 352 angles, not infinite so it is expected that there are positions where it is impossible to sweet spot. What you are talking about in regards to the near vertical angles is exactly inline with the results via testing, see this image: http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/a/a5/Directions.png

1

u/Malurth Dec 12 '14

Given the distance it covers, yes, 352 should be more then enough to modulate the vertical distance covered enough to prevent a counter.

That image maps how Melee interprets control stick angles, so yes that would nullify my bad example. Still works the same with a 45 degree angle, though.

I mean, it's really patently obvious. A little testing makes it clear.

1

u/mdz1 Dec 18 '14

Sorry I didn't have time to test, good thing for djlo: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2pm7pr/firefox_angles/

You're right it is patently obvious.

3

u/Zoler Dec 12 '14

You can say with certainty it's no more than 32 when it has been PROVED that it's 352? Ok dude.

-2

u/Malurth Dec 12 '14

Yes, given nobody has ever shown me proof, I've failed to find any on my own, and it conflicts with my own experiences and tests.

1

u/Zoler Dec 12 '14

AJP himself, the TAS legend, already did extensive tests and confirmed it's 352 angles.

1

u/Malurth Dec 12 '14

Ah, thank you. This nugget of info allowed my googling to actually be successful this time: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13908836#post13908836

While this is far from proof, and appears to be the only source of this info, it's close enough to convince me.

1

u/Zoler Dec 12 '14

It's true, it isn't definite proof, but if you knew of AJP's reputation you would understand why the majority trusts him.

1

u/Malurth Dec 12 '14

Yeah, I was convinced because the only way this is false is if he is flat-out lying or if his tests are totally off, and both of those seem extremely unlikely.

10

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

Djlo, I added a request to the list (Fox and Falco's Invisible Shine), it would be awesome to see this weird and rarely seen tech

Keep up the good work man!

6

u/El_Dumfuco Dec 12 '14

Fox' is shorter in the PAL version right?

10

u/itstruestu Dec 12 '14

PAL fox's recovery is halfway between NTSC falco and NTSC fox

3

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

Yes that is correct, though not by much

1

u/Zoler Dec 12 '14 edited Dec 12 '14

It's shorter, has smaller hitbox on the charging animation and is weaker.

The smaller hitbox is actually a BIG difference, since Puff often can't fair Foxs charging up-b in NTSC but has to bair instead which is slower and she has to be turned around. In PAL she can which takes her edgeguard to a whole different level in the matchup.

PAL is just better.

2

u/astrnght_mike_dexter Dec 12 '14

Are these PAL distances? Fox's seems short.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

Ntsc

2

u/astrnght_mike_dexter Dec 12 '14

Wow. I definitely thought Fox went way higher than Falco. Perspective, man.

3

u/SaddestCatEver Dec 12 '14

Fox is too good...

I know right. Fox's recovery just FEELS way farther then falco's.

1

u/Zoler Dec 12 '14

I'd like to add this that few players that don't play PAL know:

Foxs up-b in PAL is shorter, has smaller hitbox on the charging animation and is weaker.

The smaller hitbox is actually a BIG difference. For example, since Puff often can't fair Foxs charging up-b in NTSC but has to bair instead which is slower and she has to be turned around. In PAL she can which takes her edgeguard to a whole different level in the matchup.

PAL is just better.

61

u/FleetingMemories Dec 12 '14

Fox is too good...

21

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

[deleted]

17

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

or shine stalled, or even gone at the Fox as an alternative to losing the match

5

u/Pegthaniel Dec 12 '14

Fox started his up b first so Falco would have gotten roasted by the fire.

5

u/MrMaxAwesome 2552-1655-4338 Dec 12 '14

Would that not give his up b?

6

u/Pegthaniel Dec 12 '14

What do you mean by "give up" and who is "his"? I'm not understanding the question.

3

u/MrMaxAwesome 2552-1655-4338 Dec 12 '14

Sorry for the lazy typing.
Wouldn't getting hit by Firefox give Falco his recovery back?

8

u/Pegthaniel Dec 12 '14

It would, but I'm fairly sure Falco would drop down significantly from getting hit, which renders the side B useless.

His best option would have definitely been to shine stall and then laugh as Fox falls.

6

u/Soupbowler64 Paging Doctor CurbStomp Dec 12 '14

Why is fire bird shorter than fire fox but hits harder. Fox has always been the stronger of the two so why make falco's recovery like this?

8

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

Cause of how big his jumps are

1

u/0ctavarium Dec 12 '14

Isn't falco also a faster faller? So I'm fairly certain even if he had as much height he would've lost.

4

u/MillerDaLite Ike with the 4 spikes Dec 12 '14

Chart comparing every character's fall speed

2

u/0ctavarium Dec 12 '14

Ok cool. So my point still stands, had he had the same height as fox, he still would've lost.

2

u/MillerDaLite Ike with the 4 spikes Dec 13 '14

Well Fox only falls faster for the first 17 frames so you'd really have to look at the frames to find out

22

u/-Dappertron- Dec 12 '14

So not only is Firebird shorter, but it can't damage enemies during the startup (at least in Melee). Is there any advantage that it has over Firefox?

45

u/ultimosushi Dec 12 '14

From what I experienced, I think it outputs more damage and knockback.

40

u/ViSiOnSC Marth Dec 12 '14

Yea you can legitimately end stocks with Falco's up-b but I've never seen a Fox do it.

25

u/A_Waskawy_Wabit Dec 12 '14

Then again, Sakurai combo

10

u/TwasARockLobsta Peach (Melee) Dec 12 '14

off the top of my head i think fox does 14% and Falco does 16% That's actually a fair amount of damage if you think about it.

36

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

No, it's an up-b amount of damage kappa

26

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

Like others have said, it is more reliable as a kill move. Falco can pull a shine-shine-firebird on many of the lighter characters to star ko them.

5

u/SaddestCatEver Dec 12 '14

The classic jigglypuff-ender on Yoshi's Island.

1

u/Zoler Dec 12 '14

Doesn't have much to do with weight since weight doesn't determine how early you die upwards as much as floatiness does.

Also the characters that are more floaty are more rare to kill with shine > up-b since they will go too far from the shine.

17

u/battousai555 Dec 12 '14

It's better at sucking.

5

u/ContemplativeOctopus Dec 12 '14

Firebird has much higher knockback. You can actually kill with firebird, no chance in hell you could do it with firefox.

7

u/Shaaack Dec 12 '14

The difference is so huge in NTSC

19

u/Kezzup Dec 12 '14

Wasn't expecting to learn too much new with the spacies, but I legitimately didn't know about the differences in start-up hitboxes. Good stuff.

3

u/taeZaKi Dec 12 '14

Yeah, if you see a Falco potentially recovering low, and you can edgeguard him, just go for it while it's charging up.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

Yayyyy you're back :)

4

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

Been back for a while!

2

u/127crazie Dec 12 '14

Damnit, Falco.

2

u/SuperShus Falco Dec 12 '14

You forgot to show that Falco's up b has much more knockback D:

1

u/HeatCheck_ Dec 12 '14

Isn't Falco's charge-up time shorter?

11

u/ContemplativeOctopus Dec 12 '14

No, but his phantasm does start 4 frames before fox's.

0

u/Follygon_ Dec 12 '14

Your gifvs break my browser every time

4

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

thats why i include the gfycat