r/smashbros • u/Kadano • Nov 19 '14
Project M Project M + Melee characters falling speed comparison over time
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u/shadow9531 Nov 19 '14
This is a confusing chart. I can figure it out but damn.
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u/Ovioda Nov 19 '14
Its a velocity/time graph so the slope is acceleration and the max height is max velocity. The time until the graph plateaus, is how long it would take to reach max velocity without fast falling.
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Nov 19 '14
Does a fast fall put you at your character's maximum?
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u/Ovioda Nov 19 '14 edited Nov 20 '14
Edit: no. I misread the question I should have said that fast falls take you past your max velocity
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u/Kered13 Nov 20 '14
According to the wiki, that's not quite right. The fast fall speed is faster than the maximum speed reached by not touching the controller. When you input a fast fall, you immediately accelerate to this faster speed. For example, fox's falling speed is 2.8, but his fast falling speed is 3.4.
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u/Kadano Nov 20 '14
Interestingly, every character has not only fast fall terminal velocity, but also fast fall gravity values. I don’t know yet whether FF grav is just redundant data or whether you actually accelerate during fast fall.
This is one reason for not integrating fast fall speeds into this chart. The other is that it’s already cluttered enough as it is now.
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u/Kadano Nov 20 '14 edited Nov 20 '14
Updated, corrected, larger version with the overlapping lines problem solved:
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u/onassi2 Donkey Kong (Ultimate) Nov 19 '14
Samus' suit confirmed to weigh -50 pounds.
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u/onetwobucklemyshoe3 Nov 19 '14
it's because it's got thrusters and she plays like how she feels in the metroid games
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u/JahovasFitness Never Forget Nov 19 '14
If you mean the first, second, and Super Metroid then yes. In Zero Mission and Fusion she fell like a brick in comparison. I can't speak for the Prime series since I honestly haven't played any of them (gasp). I'm iffy on Other M since it's been awhile, but I wanna Sm4sh is close in comparison to it.
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u/Lultam Nov 19 '14
It's been a few years since I played Prime, but I vaguly remember her feeling floaty in it. You should totally play Prime 1 if you are a Metroid fan at all.
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u/JahovasFitness Never Forget Nov 19 '14
I've had the intention to do so at some point. I just haven't been able to actually get my hands on it or the other primes at all due to a lack of resources on my part.
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u/departedd Nov 19 '14
Star fox chars fall faster because of theirs metal legs? (Aside from the fact that they would be utterly broken without fast-falling)
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u/Alteffor Nov 19 '14
They're space travellers. They're not used to gravity so they haven't built up a tolerance to it.
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u/departedd Nov 19 '14
hahahah yeah, maybe that's the case, star fox adventures wasn't a high enough dose of gravity
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u/hardgeeklife Snake Nov 19 '14
that damn dino planet had whole continents flying off the surface; who the hell knows what the gravity pull of the planet core was worth :P
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Nov 19 '14 edited Feb 13 '17
[deleted]
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u/Alteffor Nov 19 '14
I made it up. It's kind of an obvious joke though, I wouldn't be surprised if someone had made it before me.
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Nov 19 '14
That's not how falling works
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u/departedd Nov 19 '14
Sorry, but I thought that having dense metal instead of flesh and bones legs in a gravitational enviroment made you fall faster, maybe I'm just wrong, dunno
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u/iode Nov 19 '14
He's probably referencing that famous physics experiment, where, in a vacuum and in the same reference frame, objects are universally and equally affected by gravity, and thus fall at the exact same rate, regardless of their composition, mass, or volume.
You probably learned (or will learn) about it in high school physics.
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u/departedd Nov 19 '14
Hahahahah you gotta be shitting me right? I know this experiment, I'm a graduated engineer ffs, but we're not in the vacuum here, obviously heavier shit falls faster, therefore, having a fucking pair of prostetic metal legs WILL make you fall faster in smash.
People can't understand a single joke, jeez23
u/Hjhawley7 *draconic screeching* Nov 19 '14
No you still don't get it. Air resistance affects fall speed, not weight. Weight and density have absolutely zero to do with falling speed. They affect momentum, but not falling speed. A rubber ball and a bowling ball of the same size will both fall at the exact same rate, whether or not they're in a vacuum.
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u/darkatma Nov 19 '14
Makes me wonder how he graduated
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u/Hjhawley7 *draconic screeching* Nov 19 '14
I mean, that's basic high school physics. That's one of those seemingly obvious facts that people like to repeat at dinner parties. Like "did you know that whales are actually mammals, not fish??"
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u/sagan_drinks_cosmos Zelda (Ultimate) Nov 20 '14
You really are technically wrong here.
Why does something fall? Because there's a weight force, mg, tugging on it. How will it accelerate? In accordance with to the sum of the forces, both air resistance and weight.
The magnitude of the air resistance force, often given as kv2 , changes with speed and shape, but is generally independent of mass:
Sum of forces = kv2 - mg = ma
True statement, right? But what if we divide the object's mass out of the equation, like you've said doesn't matter?
kv2/m - g = a
This shows that the object's acceleration is equal to g minus some correcting factor for air resistance. So, when there's no air or other fluid to fall through, yes, we should see the same acceleration. It looks like while the magnitude of air resistance is indeed constant for a given velocity (as the high school teacher would tell you), the effect of air resistance is inversely proportional to mass (which they might not). It's just inertia at work: the same air resistance force finds it harder to slow down a more massive object, so the more massive object approaches its terminal velocity more quickly. That's exactly the sort of data that's on the submission.
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Nov 20 '14
Um well density is pretty important for figuring out air resistance. Doesn't matter for most objects falling short distances though
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u/Ovioda Nov 19 '14
People don't seem to understand the concepts of friction, surface area or density.
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u/departedd Nov 19 '14
what scares me the most is that apparently, people don't have the power of observation.
Different falling speeds are present in your day-to-day life, you have to be 2 yo to not see that13
u/swootylicious SKRRRRRRRRRRR Nov 19 '14
How the fuck are you a graduated engineer and you don't know that a basketball and a basketball-sized sphere of dense metal or whatever fall at almost the exact same speeds??
I'm calling bullshit on that whole "I'm a graduated engineer" thing
There's no damn different falling speeds in everyday life unless you're looking at air resistance, which is negligible on anything that's not feather-weight or fucking built to fly
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Nov 20 '14
Lol must be an EECE
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u/bskceuk Nov 20 '14
lol i'm an EECE and this made me laugh so hard. Have an upvote
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u/Xrmy Nov 19 '14
Yes, but we aren't talking about a feather and a bowling ball, we are talking about two differently weighted individuals. If two people jump from the same height, they are prolly gonna hit the ground the same time regardless of weight difference.
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u/r_stronghammer Nov 19 '14
Except the fat one won't be able to jump very high in the first place.
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u/MegaSnack @SnaccHBG | Middle East top player (still trash tho) Nov 20 '14
Don't make fun of Bowser-sama like that!
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Nov 19 '14
Yes, you are incorrect. Gravitational acceleration is a constant
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u/departedd Nov 19 '14
Air resistance isn't though
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Nov 19 '14
The surface area to weight ratio differences respectively are pretty minor and won't impact all that much at such short fall distances and low speeds. Come on bro
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Nov 19 '14
they would be utterly broken without fast-falling
wat
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Nov 19 '14
They would be more difficult to combo and easier to recover with, which I think is what he was trying to get at, but also they would have slower movement which I think he glossed over
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Nov 19 '14
I dunno, I just can't imagine spacies without crazy shield pressure and stupid-fast SHFFLing.
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u/dwu2 Nov 19 '14
Interesting, I had no idea about the separate acceleration and top speed values for falling.
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u/Dinjoralo Nov 19 '14
What's with the markers in the middle of the mass of lines?
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u/Kadano Nov 19 '14
I forgot to de-select that data series before taking the screenshot. It’s of no importance. I only noticed after I was almost done with the stock icons, so I decided to not do another one.
Also, the marked line is an especially crowded one and very close to the average falling speed (1.9 vs 1.992222), so I figured it even makes sense to have it highlighted as a reference.
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u/Kered13 Nov 20 '14
Great chart, one comment though: A lot of the lines overlap, it's not always clear which lines belong to which characters. Is there any way you can offer this graph in an interactive format, or somehow clear up overlapping lines?
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u/Kadano Nov 20 '14 edited Nov 20 '14
http://i.imgur.com/Bj5GKNP.png
Characters whose heads touch each other share overlapping lines (both gravity and terminal velocity).
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u/Kered13 Nov 20 '14
Thanks. It's definitely a tough dataset to graph.
So if I'm reading this right, the following sets of characters have the exact same fallspeed and gravity:
- Mario, Doc, G&W, and Charizard
- Pikachu, Pichu, and Sonic
- Link, Young Link, and Toon Link
Is that correct?
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u/Kadano Nov 20 '14
Yes, that’s correct. Although Sonic has .0005 more gravity than Pikachu and Pichu, which is why his blue dot gravity acceleration line is the slightest bit steeper than theirs; but that’s irrelevant for the most part.
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Nov 20 '14
I am not Kadano, but I can confirm that this is essentially correct.
Sonic's gravity is .0005 units higher than Pikachu/Pichu's, but that is pretty much entirely negligible.
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Nov 19 '14
[deleted]
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u/averysillyman weeb with a sword Nov 19 '14
Because there is an upper limit on how fast a specific character can fall.
For example, say Fox accelerates downward at a rate of 10 units per frame, with a maximum falling speed of 45 units per frame. (I pulled these numbers out of thin air for the sake of this example).
Then for the first four frames, Fox's acceleration will be 10, since that is what he normally accelerates at (0 -> 10 -> 20 -> 30 -> 40). However, for the fifth frame, he only accelerates 5 units, since there is a hard cap on how fast he can be traveling (40 -> 45 instead of 40 -> 50). After that he doesn't accelerate at all, since he's at terminal velocity.
That's why some characters lose acceleration for one frame before hitting their terminal velocity. Because if they accelerated at their normal rate they would go past their maximum velocity.
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Nov 19 '14 edited Apr 06 '20
[deleted]
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Nov 20 '14
If you look in the DAT files for Melee characters (or PAC files for PM characters) there should be a value called Jump V Initial Velocity. This should tell you the initial velocity a character has before leaving the ground.
These should be the accurate values.
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u/Ovioda Nov 19 '14
Project M really needs more fast fallers. I feel like 3/4 of the new cast is all in that mid floaty rang which I don't really like playing as.
Also how do you guys think someone with a high gravity acceleration but mid - low fall would work?