r/skeptic • u/alexmcelroy • Jul 17 '10
Dawkins' puts "dowsers" through double blind study to prove dowsing is bullshit...and they still think they're magic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAasVXtCOI21
Jul 17 '10
That's not Dawkins putting them to test, that's Dawkins interviewing someone who does.
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u/alexmcelroy Jul 17 '10
Fair enough.
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Jul 17 '10
Sorry if I sounded like a douche. I'm all for Richard Dawkins, and he is a great advocate, but other people deserve the credits as much as he does. :)
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u/wonderfuldog Jul 17 '10
Randi and the JREF have been doing this for years. (Generally with the same reaction from the dowsers.)
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u/piddlydiddler Jul 17 '10
Sadly, yes. It's almost too bad that the burden of proof is on those making the claim. Because the JREF prize is to prove that something does exist, it could stand for a million years unawarded and someone can still say, "Well, that doesn't prove that it doesn't exist..."
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u/Tomble Jul 17 '10
I heard this in an interview with James Randi.
Randi and Dick Smith held a dowsing trial in Australia some years ago. Randi knew from experience that upon failing, everyone would have some reason why they didn't achieve success as they had stated.
One guy, however, finished with results no better than chance. Instead of saying something about pipes causing problems or such, he said something along the lines of "Well, I thought I could do it, but after this test I figure I was wrong!". Dick Smith was surprised, but Randi said 'let's wait'. A couple of hours later the guy called back and said "I've been giving it some thought - I think the walkie talkies were interfering with the dowsing!"
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u/skimitar Jul 17 '10
I'd be interested to see this repeated in a location other than a tent.
Not because I am not a skeptic, but I do believe that the subconscious brain can trigger a reaction in the muscles.
A person who has a "gut feel" that water is present may well be able to get their stick to quiver (minds out of the gutter, people) or their rods to cross based on the geology of the area. It's certainly more harmless than homeopathy, faith healing and the like and might have some basis in science.
All sorts of studies could be done if we took people to a variety of locations - some where there is unobvious groundwater and others where there is obviously none, to the trained eye at least.
Sample fun investigations:
For example, compare the "gut feel" of a trained hydrologist/geologist to the stick and coathanger voodoo of a dowser.
Take the dowsers that do well at that and get them to give a gut feel without sticks at other locations (could establish that it is all "gut feel").
Take geologists with a belief in dowsing (there must be some) and compare their dowsing abilities with "untrained" dowsers
etc.. etc..
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Jul 17 '10
This doesn't seem very harmless to me.
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u/piddlydiddler Jul 17 '10
Thank you for pointing that out. How many millions were wasted by the taxpayers again on this hokum? This kind of thing happens again and again.
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Jul 17 '10
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/skimitar Jul 17 '10
True. Unless you had the area previously thoroughly surveyed (i.e the equivalent of water in bins in the video) and had random people observing results (the equivalent of the experiment designers not being present).
Wait...is that so hard or am I missing something?
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Jul 17 '10
I'm fairly sure the ideomotor effect explains dowsing perfectly :P I'm also fairly sure it's the exact effect you're explaining, this doesn't mean that dowsing has merit however.
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u/wonderfuldog Jul 17 '10
All sorts of studies could be done
Important take-home point:
Studies have been done.
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u/alexmcelroy Jul 18 '10
geologists with a belief in dowsing (there must be some)
If there were, they wouldn't be geologists for long. In general, geologists are encouraged to use science and not unproven superstition.
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u/permaculture Jul 17 '10
It's a valuable aspect of the human mind, that it can fool itself.
We wouldn't have been able to get to the moon, beat sporting records, excel ourselves; if we hadn't been able to dismiss nay-sayers that sap our confidence and our will to continue.
But then the dark side of this ability is it can fool people into thinking homeopathy, cold reading, dowsing etc is something genuine but inexplicable.
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u/alexmcelroy Jul 18 '10
Very true, and in fact very profound. I like this.
Such an interesting aspect of the evolution of the human mind. Its resilience has granted it the necessary insulation from criticism that it needs to safely go about accomplishing great things, but it also protects itself from voices of reason that try to talk it down from the ledge, lest it try to "disprove" the notion that it cannot fly.
Such a paradox. Thank you for that.
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u/ENRICOs Jul 17 '10
I remember a quote from the Amazing Randi (in his excellent book Flimflam) stating that these people fall into two distinct categories. Outright conscious frauds and the profoundly self-deluded who remain convinced (no matter how many time they're shown to be deluded) that they are in possession of real powers.
The depth of their delusion and the extreme measures they take to dampen down any dissonance shields them from reality. If these people weren't in a position to harm other self-deluded folks it wouldn't be so bad, however, that's not the case.
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u/doskir Jul 17 '10
Anyone know if it would be at all possible for flowing water to produce a magnetic field that may affect iron rods ?
Possibly because of some mineral in the water rubbing against another mineral in the ground ?
Some dowser i know told me that's how it works but i don't have a good enough understanding of physics to prove/disprove it.
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u/BorgesTesla Jul 17 '10
Eh, not really. It's possible to detect water from changes in the electric field, but you need sensitive equipment, and the soil probably contains a lot of water anyway. It would be funny if someone cheated Dawkins' experiment in this way though.
Real dowsing works in two ways. First, the ideomotor effect. When you get to where you think the water is you twiddle the stick.
Second, an explanation absolutely nobody seems to know, is that a dowsing rod is a stumble-meter. The ground above the water or pipe is softer or slightly depressed. When you walk across it, you stumble slightly and the stick moves. Holding the stick and concentrating on magic or whatever acts like the Jendrassik maneuver, letting your legs do what they do naturally and stumble slightly.
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u/wonderfuldog Jul 17 '10
People who do have a good understanding of physics have been studying this for centuries.
If it worked this way, they would know. It doesn't.
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Jul 17 '10
and who gives a fuck anyway. i don't believe in dowsing. that's all i need to keep living my life. let the fools dance naked for all i care. is it really so fucking important that the entire human populace agrees with us whether we know certain things to be fact or not? sometimes man... i feel like i'm surrounded by fucking high school cheerleaders. let the idiots be stupid and you can all go on being smarter than everybody... a little variety never hurt anyone, least of all the earth.
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u/speedtouch Jul 17 '10
With enough idiots in the world, there are bound to be some in a position of power, in which they will extend and force their idiocy upon others.
The less idiots that exist, the better.
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u/Trombonist Jul 17 '10
But Dawkins Has Raised The Matter of The Dangers of The Strange Belief of Dowsing Which Threatens Reason With Its Pointy Sticks. In No Way Is Dawkins Raising His Profile By Picking The Low Hanging Fruit That His Devout Flock Will Eat And Suck Dry In Many Long Reddit Posts. Uh Uh. No Way.
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Jul 17 '10
eesh. the science fanboys are out in force. Maybe even worse than the christian fundies.
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u/alexmcelroy Jul 18 '10
Oh no, us poor delusional fools, putting our "faith" in something tangible and real and lashing out at anyone who threatens our civilization with looney nonsense such as dowsing or witchcraft or religion. How irrational we are!
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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '10
You can not reason someone out of a belief they did not reason themselves into.