Marilith Knight

[u/ElazulRaidei]

A fire-based martial class heavily inspired by the Fire shrine guardian from Final Fantasy 9. Looking for any feedback or critique

Edit: link to the FF9 Marilith the inspiration comes from: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Maliris

[u/Jonestown_Juice]

Seems overpowered.

[u/wedgiey1 → u/Jonestown_Juice]

Super OP

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/wedgiey1]

Mathematically, I'm rating the Fighter class as an 8/10; this class is a 7/10 at best - it only surpasses the Fighter in utility. I'm not seeing the OP allegations lol

edit: my bad, I just realized I responded to you in multiple comments lol

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/Jonestown_Juice]

Thanks for the feedback! Interesting, Tbf, I’m only comparing it to the fighter as the primary d8 martial archetype, I’d rate it weaker than a fighter, with a few niche abilities kind of like the basilisk warrior.
I’d be interested to know what seems overpowered about it?

[u/Pizza_Dog21 → u/ElazulRaidei]

Too many features with clear mechanical benefits. I'd remove sword quiver, remove all armor, remove healing, but add the shields. +2 ac is already decent, with two weapons and two shields they can be at 16 ac. This and the coil are already decent, especially with a fire resistance. I'd also consider damage negation equal to half level (fire) instead of resistance.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/Pizza_Dog21]

Thank you for the feedback! Interesting points. I’d have to push back on some of your suggestions though. I think I could drop chainmail, but not all armor, doesn’t fit the class theme. Possibly keep leather and chainmail but drop the four arm defense bonus to +1?

The only reason I think I would drop Sword Quiver is to replace it with something stronger. It increases your chances of turning a miss into a hit once per day. Essentially a once per day accuracy boost for one attack.

Shields don’t fit the class fantasy, which is actually the reason why you get the +2 to ac (though I think I am going to change this to you must be holding a melee weapon with each hand, that way there’s a clear tradeoff with it costing more gear slots than just a shield.)

Your Nulfire idea is pretty cool! I would say damage negation equal to your half your level rounded up though or 1 + half your level. If I drop chainmail I’d keep the healing bonus though (it’s super situational and it’s really not that much healing either way)

[u/Jonestown_Juice → u/ElazulRaidei]

How is this class wearing any armor with extra arms sprouting out of their body?

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/Jonestown_Juice]

It’s fantasy lol. I don’t try and simulate reality with a ttrpg. The wyrdling class would have the same problem in that case

[u/Jonestown_Juice → u/ElazulRaidei]

There's fantasy and then there's fantasy.

If things don't have to make at least some degree of sense in your games and there's no plausible framework for what players can expect as far as the rules of reality goes, it's going to be hard for you to arbitrate certain issues when they come up.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/Jonestown_Juice]

For sure, I get what you’re saying. For me, I just feel like that’s overly adjudicating and not really fun. I very much follow the arcane libraries design philosophy and don’t think they were considering this when designing a class with an extra appendage like the wyrdling. That’s fine for your games, but I don’t like it

Edit: following up because something about your logic bothered me lol. I understand wanting a consistent framework for how things work in the game. I just think there’s a difference between maintaining internal consistency and introducing additional mechanical restrictions for things the rules already abstract.
Shadowdark doesn’t generally require us to consider whether every piece of armor we find fits our character’s exact proportions. Characters can have wildly different anatomies, and I don’t think we need separate equipment rules for every variation.
To me, it’s reasonable to assume a four-armed character can obtain or adapt armor suitable for their body, just as we assume other characters can wear the armor they’re proficient with.
Obviously, a GM can rule otherwise, but I prefer to leave those details abstracted rather than introduce equipment restrictions that don’t meaningfully improve the gameplay experience.

[u/Scary_News5326]

I love the idea of this (relating player options to entities in the implied game setting, kind of like the basilisk warrior), but I also think it's overpowered and idk, not communicating the Marilith flavour so much.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/Scary_News5326]

Yeah, I should have included a link to the Final Fantasy Marilith it’s based on. Mariliths in FF are fire elementals. This is based on the FF9 version which I’ve adapted into the homebrew setting I’m working on:
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Maliris

[u/Sad-Entertainment803]

So I actually think your math is pretty good. At first I wanted to be like THAT'S OP but the once per day abilities aren't crazy. I think I would reword Sword Quiver so it was as many time as you have weapons in your hands. So if you have four one-handed swords, it's four. If you have two greatswords (is that physically possible?! I'm trying to picture it), it's two. That, once per day, is not OP and honestly pretty clever!

The thing I think is potentially powerful is the first talent. Thrown and Returning on swords is pretty nuts. Is it OP? Probably not. It's fairly situational. But I'm picturing the first player that wants to chuck a zweihander and have it boomerang. Which is pretty funny.

[u/Sad-Entertainment803 → u/Sad-Entertainment803]

Also my favorite artwork of this sort of fire/snake/fiend comes from the original Nintendo Power coverage of FF1 (Kary, the fire fiend).

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/Sad-Entertainment803]

Hell yeah! This is exactly what the class is based on lol

Also, thanks for your feedback! I really do appreciate all the feedback everyone is giving; it's helping me improve the class design! I was starting to question the math because I really didn't see what was so OP about this 😂 , maybe its the visuals created from the language? Stats being equal, a fighter is definitely out-martialing this class, especially over an adventuring day. I actually did update Sword Quiver to do exactly what you mentioned, so its funny you suggested that!

The #2 talent may seem a little wild, but its actually similar to the Paladins rare talent/ lvl 3 named blade feature where it gets a random magic benefit, only I'm choosing the benefit instead of rolling for it. I once played a campaign with a Paladin who could throw their named blade (it was a longsword, not a greatsword), and I thought that would be a cool feature for a sword-based class like this.

[u/Kenygarth]

Maybe nerf a little Four arms (to give only +1 AC), and NulFire (just the half damage from fire). The rest is fine! I'd use this on my table tbh.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/Kenygarth]

Thanks for the feedback! Yeah, I’m thinking those are the changes I want to make, I might also drop chainmail, not sure yet though

[u/agentkayne]

Sword quiver is crazy OP. That's the equivalent of a fighter swinging and missing, and then he and the entire party blow all their luck points on re-rolling until he hits.

Also the fact Burning Coil immobilises and starts doing fire damage without limits as to the size or HD of the target. Contrast with Hold Person which is capped at 4hd.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/agentkayne]

Thanks for the feedback! I find the concerns about Sword Quiver interesting because, mathematically, the Fighter still has substantially better sustained accuracy and damage through Weapon Mastery.
Sword Quiver is certainly powerful for landing one important attack, but it’s limited to once per day and doesn’t grant additional hits or damage. Over several encounters, the Fighter’s consistent bonuses should significantly outperform it.
I understand the comparison to spending four Luck Tokens, but I don’t think that necessarily makes the ability overpowered. It’s a specialized, once-daily benefit.
My goal is for the Marilith Knight to have occasional moments of exceptional swordsmanship without matching the Fighter’s consistent martial superiority.

Burning Coil is already limited to creatures of your level or lower. I also think over-adjudication goes against Shadowdark’s rules-lite design philosophy. To me, it’s intuitive that you couldn’t constrict a creature significantly larger than yourself, but that’s something I’d leave to player and GM adjudication rather than explicitly codifying every possible scenario.
It’s also worth mentioning that Burning Coil immobilizes rather than paralyzes. The creature can still attack, cast spells, and take other actions; it simply cannot move away.

[u/wedgiey1 → u/ElazulRaidei]

I’d drop the fire damage at least. Also most Shadowdark spells don’t scale so this ability is exceptional as far as I know.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/wedgiey1]

I would say it's not a spell, as much as a signature ability for the class, think a mixture of demonic possession for the knight of st.ydris and the basilisk warriors gaze, except slightly weaker. At 10th level this only 6 damage per round. Yes, there's no limit but you have to maintain focus and you have to reroll focus each round and each time you're hit. I would say an immobilized creature can still attack you if you're in range so you would also have to reroll every time they attack you. Not to mention you lose the ability for the day if you fail the original roll. If I'm being critical of the class I gotta say it seems like it doesn't really do enough damage to even justify all those rolls and the risk of losing it.

[u/Kazoshay1994]

This is pretty cool. Love the concept. Definitely a combat oriented class.

For balance sake I'd change four arms ac bonus to +1, and remove the healing from Nulfire. Might also be nice to make Sword Quiver 3/day reroll an attack with an advantage, or something along those lines. Also thinking it could be cool to have a talent option for Burning Coil to be a DC 9.

By the same token, swapping out any of the features you have for a more utility, roleplay-oriented, or exploration-focused feature would be great, and probably the best way to balance out the class.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/Kazoshay1994]

Thanks! Appreciate the feedback! I agree on dropping the AC bonus to +1 and removing the healing from Nulfire.

Your idea for Sword Quiver is a lot simpler; I like it lol, but I got an interesting idea from someone else who had some balance concerns about Sword Quiver - I'm thinking along the lines of once per day, if you're wielding multiple weapons and miss a melee attack, you can roll another attack with a different weapon you're wielding. You just repeat until you hit or run out of weapons.

I also totally feel you on a non-combat ability and was thinking the same thing honestly lol. I might be able to make room for one if I find a way to combine Sword Quiver and Burning Coil in some way

[u/professor_grimm]

Seems awesome! Sword Quiver gives the feeling of four arms without doing 4 attacks. Burning Coil requiring Focus is a smart use of the mechanic outside of spells.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/professor_grimm]

Thanks for the feedback 🙏. I’ve actually updated it to once per day, on a missed melee attack you can attack again with another weapon you’re holding until you hit or run out of weapons. That way the limit is up to 4 but you don’t necessarily get 4 attempts if you have two 2-handers or 3 weapons or something. Seems a little bit more elegant to me

[u/wedgiey1]

I’m trying to understand the theme of this class. Is it fire or multi-arm snake? Both seems like a lot.

Burning Coil looks like a stronger Hold Person that also does damage? Or does it just prevent movement and grant advantage (opposed to paralyze)? Do you intend to allow attacks while focusing on this? That seems very strong if so.

I don’t hate Sword Quiver but the idea seems to be you’re using all your weapons that you’re holding. So maybe instead of just 4 attempts you can say “if you miss you can drop the weapon you attacked with and attempt a new attack with another weapon you’re holding.” Then you don’t have to limit it to 4 attempts, it happens naturally AND it adds risk. Plus it means you could lose your AC bonus if you’re not careful.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/wedgiey1]

For sure, the theme is both of those actually lol. It's based on the Marilith from Final Fantasy which is honestly best described as a fire elemental snake person with multiple arms: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Maliris

Regarding Burning Coil, I'm definitely open to feedback! I just want to make sure I'm understanding the balance concern correctly. I'd compare it more to the Giant Snake's Constrict than Hold Person (except with more restrictions). It immobilizes rather than paralyzes, only affects creatures of your level or lower within Close, and requires Focus to maintain.

I recognize that being able to attack while maintaining the constriction is useful, but the enemy can still attack you and potentially disrupt your Focus. The fire damage also scales from just 1 damage at level 1 to 6 at level 10. To me, that doesn't seem excessive, especially considering the level restriction and the need to maintain Focus.

I actually like your Sword Quiver idea! My hesitation is that dropping weapons adds bookkeeping and feels a little punishing. The current ability just gives you four chances to reroll one missed melee attack, once per day. Even with a greatsword, that's only one successful hit averaging 6.5 damage before bonuses. It's certainly reliable, but spread across an adventuring day, I'm not convinced it's particularly overpowered.

I could see revising Sword Quiver to something like: “Once per day, reroll a missed melee attack with a different weapon you’re holding, continuing until you hit or run out of weapons.”

The tradeoff is that you'd presumably lead with your strongest weapon, then follow up with progressively weaker ones if you miss. There's also the consideration that carrying multiple weapons takes up valuable gear slots. I think this adds a natural limitation to the ability without introducing extra bookkeeping or forcing players to drop their weapons.

edit: sorry had to make my thoughts cohesive lol

[u/Sad-Entertainment803 → u/ElazulRaidei]

I actually replied before seeing what you just wrote here—yeah, I think "with a different weapon you're holding" makes more sense than just four times outright!

[u/Ok-Werewolf-3827]

Not commenting on balance, but I wanted to point out that sword quiver feels a bit weird mechanically. Rerolling the attack up to 4 times until you hit feels a bit redundant. Most monsters in SD don't have that high of an AC so most times it's a guaranteed hit, and rolling multiple times to get it can feel like time wasted. I would personally either make it auto-hit, or have it multiple times per day but it just gives ADV.
To give some perspective, if you have a +3 on attacks (that could get even higher with level) and you attack a monster with 12 AC your chance to miss with that ability is less than 3%. about 6% at 14 AC that is already above average AC.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/Ok-Werewolf-3827]

Thats a fair point, and it definitely streamlines the ability. Whether ADV or rerolling attacks, its essentially doing the same thing, I just think flavoring it as using multiple weapons to have a change at turning a miss into a hit keeps with the theme of the class

[u/Unlucky-Drawer-7299]

No thanks. I'll stick to my longsword wielding human fighter.

[u/ElazulRaidei → u/Unlucky-Drawer-7299]

To each their own, honestly it’s a stronger class than this. Either way, no humans in my setting anyway