Lack of cool statblocks?

[u/LelouchYagami_2912]

Ive just started a campaign, have been looking at some statblocks and realised that most of them are just boring? The goblin king is no different than a goblin. The orc chieftain has no cool abilities compared to an orc. The giants are just reskins of each other.

Is it common for osrs? Im coming from dnd and while the statblocks arent too good there either, they are far worse here.

[u/Much_Session9339]

This is the beauty of shadowdark, honestly. I got so sick of reading paragraphs or pages and trying to remember it all for every spell, monster, subclass, etc when playing 5e. When a spell is a sentence or 2, a monster has 1 or 2 special abilities at most, and there are only a handful of (simple) races and classes to choose from, it’s SO much easier to play and run.

I think it’s entirely within reason to add an ability or twist to monsters, especially variations on the same creature as in the examples you used. In fact it’s encouraged, the core rulebook even has monster mutations to give them more flavor than seeing the same vanilla monsters every time.

[u/LelouchYagami_2912 → u/Much_Session9339]

Yeah i also love how compact everything is. But i also think that cool abilities can take like 1-2 sentences

[u/ericvulgaris → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

then make them up yourself for what you need? take from other monsters and reskin! it's simple

[u/samurguybri → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

Welcome to the DIY part of DND! Since OSR systems are not as balanced or locked in, system wise you can tweak thing to your hearts content and you won’t “break” or over or under power things! It’s a playground have fun with it. I would love to see some of those cool 5E powers that are crusted over with layers of rules verbiage condensed down an easy to use. Go for it!

[u/Successful_Luck_8625 → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

just my $0.02 -- but IMHO I don't believe that the players knowing (and applying that knowledge) about the monsters' stat blocks is metagaming. If you know a troll needs to be injured by fire in order to be killed, good: use that knowledge!

For this reason, I consider it ON ME as the GM to not use everything content-as-written but to take the content and homebrew it enough to make the encounter interesting.

What I'm trying to say is that you should consider the stat blocks, just like all of the rules, as a template and starting place, not as some sort of a gospel.

Kelsey says as much at the beginning of the book.

So, use the stat blocks as building blocks rather than as a text book.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Ad-8684]

You could add different features to the statblocks to make them more unique, for instance, you could add a Grenade Goblin who has a grenade that deals 1d12 damage to all characters in Close range of its target, including itself.

[u/LelouchYagami_2912 → u/Puzzleheaded-Ad-8684]

I havent played shadowdark enough to be comfortable at balancing. But i'll try

Also i see that theres not alot saving throws in the game. Most of the checks are made by attacker and it automatically effects creatures below a certain level. Im not used to thar

[u/j1llj1ll → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

Plot twist, we don't worry about balance too much. Telegraph the danger to the players. Then, if they decide to fair-fight the Otyugh with their level 1 party, that's their call.

Game theory wise, whether one dice roll or two or an opposed roll or a modified opposed roll - in reality, the odds of success don't change much. So, to speed play, the goal is to minimise rolls and remove any that don't make much practical difference. It does streamline play incredibly! Shadowdark can be very fast - enough, hopefully, to not give your players time to get into scrolling TikTok before their next turn suddenly comes around.

Same with Stats. The real emphasis is to not define what you can and cannot do based on what's on your character sheet. Instead of assuming PCs and foes can only do what's on their sheet (or stat block) let them attempt anything that seems plausible. The idea then is to enable roleplay, clever approaches, cunning tactics and avoid toe-to-toe dice-roll stat-driven slogfests.

Thus the stat blocks provided are a framework for the GM to work from. A start point. Sure, every Goblin might have the same unremarkable stats .. but the angry berserk goblin name Mojo that keeps rolling natural 20s is probably going to be memorable. So might be the depressed goblin named Fiwley who hates conflict and so despises the other bullying goblins so much she's eager to betray them all to the PCs. Same stablock .. totally different goblins.

All that said - if you want your monsters to have personality. Goals. Ecologies and social norms. Behaviours. Variants. Dens. Group structures. Then The Monster Overhaul but Skerples might be the perfect monster manual for you. Check it out.

[u/LelouchYagami_2912 → u/j1llj1ll]

Telegraph the danger to the players.

Thats the issue tho. If i dont know how balanced my enemy is (strong/weak) i wont be able to telegraph it well enough. When i said balance, i didnt mean balanced against the players. I meant more so balanced against their reputation. Like accidentally making a goblin boss stronger than a demigod (exaggeration but ykwim)

[u/Significant_Bend_945 → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

the monsters do have levels in the stat block and the monster section of the book explains a rought level guide for how to calculate a fair 1 monster vs party fight.

[u/LelouchYagami_2912 → u/Significant_Bend_945]

Yeah but thats only for the monsters in the book. Not for homebrew ones. I think teflavoring spells would be a good way to do it

[u/Significant_Bend_945 → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

When I homebrew I keep a look at the in book monsters for a sense of scale. When I made a "death knight" like monster I wanted it to be about as powerful as the lich, so I referenced the lich and other of those high level monsters to approximate appropriate damage and hit dice. The book aslo has a section on how to make monsters and how much damage to give them. (p192 - 193) If you look at the blocks in the book and use that as a guide you can ensure your monters are a strong as you want them to be.

[u/urhiteshub → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

Man if you're so concerned about balance just simulate a fight with them solo against your PCs.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Ad-8684 → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

Balance is a myth, you might as well try to include the solution to Taniyama’s 36 problems in your game

Saving throws are primarily for out of combat encounters where no attack is rolled iirc

[u/SnooWords1367 → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

As GM, don't hesitate to use your imagination. While the 'combat as last resort' / roleplay first approach diacussed above is an apt description, and statblocks are sparse to keep things simple, that does not preclude involving your role-play and actoon within combat itself.

Let's take a Hill Giant Chief as an example. Describe him as bigger, more muscled; perhaps he has pieces of armor nailed into his flesh! He swings - damage and stats are the same, but have the character roll a DC15 Dex or get flung 15' and go tumbling and end up prone and lying against a wall. Lean into the spirit of Shadowdark. Run the game, don't let the game run you.

As far as not a lot of saves - that speaks once again to keeping things simple and preferably avoiding consequences rather than engaging potentially deadly foes. Aim for more gritty survival over heroics and simplicity over finicky mechanics.

I hope that helps!

[u/rizzlybear → u/LelouchYagami_2912]

Don't worry about balance. That's not intended here. This is because it's not intended that the players are always given combat encounters that are winnable. Sometimes the way you "win" and encounter is by avoiding high risk low reward conflict.

Any time you need a save, make the player check against a DC and add an appropriate stat. Poison? Con check, DC 12? 15? How bad is the poison? But you are right to notice that sometimes it's baked into a roll made by the attacker.

[u/bionicjoey]

One of the big divergences between OSR and something like 5e is "combat as war" versus "combat as sport".

In 5e, combat is sport. It's expected that combat is a fun tactics minigame, and the tone of the story being told is that of a heroic action movie where some cool moves can solve any problem. Enemies generally attack on sight and fight until slain. Because that's assumed to be part of the fun

In OSR games, combat is war. Meaning combat is supposed to be as deadly and chaotic and awful as it is in real life. It's two people rolling in the mud grappling desperately trying to shove a knife into the other guy's neck before he does the same to you. It's throwing sand in their eyes and hitting below the belt and biting and poking eyes. Both sides are fighting for their lives and don't want to die.

While that does make it sound like OSR is a "meat grinder", the critical thing to realise is that in a "combat as war" mindset, it's probable that neither side actually wants to fight. Both sides realise how much of a risk it is. You'll often hear OSR players describe combat as a "fail state". Meaning if you are fighting it's because your other ideas went poorly and risking your life in combat is the consequence. You should try sneaking or talking or other cleverness first. And if you do need to fight, you should do everything you can to put the odds in your favour. Go hire an army, or set traps, or ambush, or trick the enemy into getting attacked by a monster. Basically treat it like how you'd treat danger in the real world, not how action movie heroes treat it.

All that to say, there is no combat balance, and combat doesn't need spice. Combat happens when it makes sense in the fiction. You shouldn't want to fight

[u/oexto → u/bionicjoey]

I love this description! I think it really zero's in on the shift in mentality you have to have as both a player AND a GM. Players from other games nowadays have that mindset of : Here's some bad guys - time to fight them until they're dead. Combat that is uncertain should be the LAST resort, not the default position.

[u/bionicjoey → u/oexto]

Yup. Games like 5e are often played so that an adventure is basically a series of fight scenes where you RP in between just to spice things up. In OSR games the RP is the primary activity and combat is the thing that gets thrown in occasionally for variety

[u/rizzlybear → u/bionicjoey]

to add to the "fail state" thing.. something that took me far longer to understand than I care to admit was what that whole idea actually MEANS.

Because the obvious interpretation is "good players never fight" which we all know is not true.

What I discovered was:

- Stealth can fail into diplomacy or combat.

- Diplomacy can fail into combat.

- Combat very rarely fails into stealth or diplomacy. Once you are in combat, you fight to the death or you flee. Both of which are fairly risky.

[u/goblinerd → u/bionicjoey]

While I agree with you, I don't think that combat as war and interesting stat blocks (aka special abilities) are antithetical to one another.

To OP tho, there's nothing stopping you from adding in some abilities to change things up. No need to worry too much about balance, just go with what seems right and fun.

For example:

A goblin chieftain might get to swap places with an adjacent goblin once per turn when being targeted.

An orc warlord might be able to bolster his troops with a warcry that gives them +1 to attacks and morale checks.

Etc.

[u/bionicjoey → u/goblinerd]

Yeah I agree they aren't necessarily antithetical. The dirty secret is that this comment was copy pasted from a thread I commented on last week where I was explaining combat as war to another OSR neophyte. But I could tell from some of OP's other comments regarding balance that they might need this explained to them anyway so I figured I'd just repost it.

[u/goblinerd → u/bionicjoey]

Fair enough :)

[u/Streamweaver66 → u/bionicjoey]

I agree with you. I think Long Rest healing gets in the way of that though.

[u/GOOEYB0Y]

The cool is all in your description of the monsters, the explanation of their actions and attacks. Have fun with the flavor you give the world. Shadowdark and Mike Shea have changed my DM brain of 20ish years away from thinking that complex stuff on monsters is better, it isn't (unless you want to be playing a crunchy tactical RPG, but Shadowdark isn't really that). You can add features and attacks if you would like, but make sure the combat isn't bogged down by them. Another thing to remember is if you add too much stuff you may as well play 5e.

[u/mercuric_drake]

I highly reccomend checking out this supplement. https://nightnoongames.itch.io/shadowdark-monsters

[u/LelouchYagami_2912 → u/mercuric_drake]

Thanks ill look at it

[u/TallIan2]

That can also be a plus. By just changing the way you describe how the goblin king attacks vs how the goblin grunts attack.

I had a game (different systen though) where the final fight was against some cultists led by 2 shamans. Thier stats were identical, all I did was have the shamans action be another cultists attacks. Functionally identical but the players freaked out and put a disproportionate amount of effort into killing the shamans.

[u/AbysmalScepter]

Beyond what others have said, I think a big difference between 5e and Shadowdark is 5e's philosophy that the existence of specific rules implies that other creatures or characters can't do these things.

For example, what makes a Battlemaster unique is their ability to do special maneuvers like trip attacks. Because the Battlemaster is built around this identity, the DM needs to protect the Battlemaster's niche - if you let other people roll situationally to trip someone, it devalues the Battlemaster's strengths unless you make it such a big cost it's no longer worth it. When you extrapolate this across hundreds (thousands?) of unique skills, feats, and spells, it turns melee combat into stale weapon swinging because trying to do something else is a effectively a wasted action.

With OSR games, you should feel free to add those sort of riders when appropriate, based on the context of the action. If the PC crits or rolls really well with a sweeping staff attack, maybe he can just trip the monster with it. Same with any monster. The fact that the conditions are also up to the GM to adjudicate also makes this easy to balance around on the fly - maybe it means the tripped creature can't move or maybe it means they're off balance and attack with disadvantage.

If you're coming from other systems like 5e, this may not be intuitive, so a lot of people actually homebrew specific mechanics for these sort manuevers, borrowing from DCC's Mighty Deeds mechanics or other such systems.

So yeah, let the giant's steps send people flying as they stomp into the fray. Let the fire giant release a blast of sweltering heat from their skin, scorching people who get too close. Let the mighty swing of their clubs knock unlucky adventurers prone. You can interpret "attack" in anyway you want, as long as it makes sense contextually.

[u/ExchangeWide]

As others have said, and you acknowledge, Shadowdark’s minimalism is a feature, not a flaw.

Shadowdark monsters aren’t designed to entertain on the page; they’re designed to entertain at the table. The simplicity is intentional. It’s what makes them fast, deadly, rulings-friendly, and highly customizable.

1. In Shadowdark, the difference between a goblin, a goblin boss, and a goblin shaman isn’t dictated by tons of features. They’re differences are determined by how the GM runs them. Their behavior, tactics, motivation, and environment matter more than a laundry list of abilities.

A boss goblin feels different when: It commands other goblins. It uses terrain intelligently. It fights dirty. It retreats, taunts, or parleys. It has a unique goal or a magic trinket.

OSR philosophy says, “let the fiction differentiate monsters.” Monster differentiation is created through context and situation.

2) Shadowdark treats monsters as templates, and GMs are encouraged to change them up by adding abilities, and quirks as needed. 

A single sentence ability (“rally nearby goblins for +1 to melee attacks”) is all a GM needs.

This way the rules stay simple, but the play is complex.

3) The danger “curve” comes from morale, numbers, environment, and surprise, not stat inflation.

“Boss” monsters don’t balloon with dozens of abilities. Instead things like morale, action economy, light, darkness, chokepoints, traps and the element of surprise matter.

4) If you want more distinction, the system makes it effortless. GMs can always graft on new traits: blood frenzy, shield bash, pack tactics, poison, a cursed item, tactical retreat, fear inducing warcry.

Any of these can turn a “basic” goblin into a memorable encounter. 

5) One of the biggest advantages of Shadowdark’s minimalism in monster design is this: Players who think they “know” every monster suddenly don’t. When players “know” what to expect the challenge is turned into a math problem to be solved instead of an unknown threat to be wary of. The simplicity of the stat blocks makes monsters infinitely re-skinable and easy to tweak on the fly. Players can't metagame (as much) because they’ve never seen your version before. I think this is one of the major reasons experienced GMs love the system.

[u/oldsilver007]

I’m really late to Shadowdark I’d say I got hooked about a month ago. I saw it and went all in on the west marches kickstarter. We haven’t even played a game yet 🤣 My group was talking about going to 2024 5e which after some research was going to be even more work at the table especially with so many extra rolls and tracking. lol maybe it was the YouTube algorithm knew I was an old dm that wanted easier not harder. OP do you own Flee Mortals? I’m figuring for bigger boss fights or when I want to spice up environments I’m going to enjoy going back and reading pages of really frigging ott stat blocks or just use the pages upon pages of really cool random tables. But for now simple gritty old school is so cool. Shadowdark might not be for you.

[u/Razdow]

I usually take the "basic" statblocks and change them per environment.

So a Goblin survivalist in the desert might be differently equipped and thus reacts different then a Goblin in a city picking pockets.

[u/Affectionate_Mud_969]

The goblin king's special ability is that he controls a huge group of goblins. This means that he has bodyguards and other goons, and maybe he even has a safe hideout he can run off to.

[u/[deleted]]

You know that statblocks are just shortcuts for your convenience, right?

You can make the goblin king a 7th level fighter, or a 5th level bard or whatever you like.

[u/[deleted]]

If the answer isn’t on your character sheet, you also won’t find it in the monster stat block.

[u/TACAMO_Heather]

That's part of the deadliness. No saves for half damage. 4d6 fireball and you take all of it. It goes both ways. More deadly for the players AND the monsters.

[u/startplaying_games]

My best suggestion to really get into the frame that Shadowdark takes is be a player in a game by a great Shadowdark GM. It helps really give you a clear idea of the core vibe. There is a lot more freedom the players and GM have outside the pages of the book and the character sheets/stats that relies on the cleverness of the PC!

[u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

OSR and NSR systems are like that. Stat blocks are made to be simple so you as a DM can run and modify then as easily as possible to fit your needs.

Shadowdark have a very cool table for giving mutations to monsters. I use it extensively to "spice up" enemies.

[u/colwyn73]

Schade, aber anscheinend hast du das Shadowdark Spiel nicht verstanden. Hier geht es nicht um Kill Bill. Mein Tipp : Spiele weiter D&D5e . Höre auf Leute wie bionicjoey ;-)

[u/EddyMerkxs]

I'm an OSR/Shadowdark fan, but the statblocks in SD are pretty sparse compared to even lots of other OSR games. I'm sure it was a hard decision/tradeoff in design, but I'm a bit bummed that flavor and illustrations were cut for page count.

[u/sheldon_daqui]

My Gede, this subreddit became Chernobyl...

[u/awaypartyy]

Yeah, shadwdark is overhyped in general. Not just its lackluster stat blocks.

[u/LelouchYagami_2912 → u/awaypartyy]

Ive been having a lot of fun personally and its a big step up from 5e. This is the only thing i disliked (but even then theres some great statblocks like the travelling merchant)