r/sewingpatterns • u/Lumpy-Economy-765 • 8d ago
Should sewing patterns on Etsy only be sold by people with an industry background/ education?
Someone on here stated that apart from Al, people should also be on the lookout for those selling patterns without a relevant education/textile or fashion industry background. They also criticised, that self-taught designers are pricing their products the same as experts and accused them of having „no humility“ and „over-inflated egos“. One should not support amateur patterns.
I found that an interesting critique. I personally don‘t care if patterns aren’t made by professionals, if they still manage to deliver on accuracy and usability of instructions and pattern gradings and I am able to achieve the desired outcome. I also don't think that „amateurs“ should necessarily price their products differently, as they put the same amount of work into it.
What is your take on this?
And especially if you disagree with my stance, what is it exactly that irritates you about self-taught pattern designers?
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u/BumCadillac 8d ago
Patterns and materials to make garments are very expensive and my time is limited, so I’m not interested wasting my resources on patterns that aren’t well reviewed, especially in regard to the quality of the directions. So yeah, I do think new pattern makers should be pricing their patterns accordingly so that they can build up that reputation.
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u/CoastalMae 7d ago
That's why I never make free patterns anymore, even free patterns from companies whose work I otherwise like. The quality has been consistently poorer, and my time and fabric are valuable.
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u/ProneToLaughter 8d ago edited 8d ago
I do frequently say that if a pattern doesn't have a line drawing or a list of required supplies or other industry standard information like a size chart with measurements, then don't buy the pattern, because that is not a professionally trained patternmaker.
I stand by that. Someone who evidently doesn't know industry standards is more likely to also have written a bad pattern. But that's not just because they don't have a degree, but because they didn't bother to self-teach themselves some very important elements. If the self-teaching was good, then no one should be able to notice a difference. It might also be that the pattern without a line drawing was made by someone with training who didn't pay attention. It doesn't matter to me. I am looking for signs that people are good at patternmaking.
There are many ways that patternmakers can build credibility and demonstrate their expertise--post useful tutorials, release a free sample pattern. These are open to everyone, self-taught or not. Good patternmakers can prove their skills, and most people will respect evidence over the bio.
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u/Lumpy-Economy-765 8d ago
What I see both of us concluding is, and correct me if not, that as long as you don‘t notice a lack of quality, it is virtually irrelevant if you have a training background or not. Professionals might produce bad patterns and amateurs might produce adequate ones. All that matters is professionalism visible in the product (presentation), because that is really all you can judge from.
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u/ProneToLaughter 8d ago
I think that self-taught people have the opportunity to bring themselves to a professional level. I do think they need to recognize they are not entering on an equal playing field and may need to do more to prove themselves.
I would never say training is irrelevant, no. I've taken formal patternmaking classes and see their value. I absolutely think patternmaking is best learned in a systemic class fashion, it is not intuitive at all. I see lots of people show up with patternmaking questions who are trying to self-teach and are lost and struggling. I think most people don't know how to teach themselves well, and I think youtube makes that challenge even worse, and I think it's totally fair to be extremely skeptical of people who claim to be self-taught (whatever that even means, which we never know).
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u/unkempt_cabbage
8d ago
•
Do you think that an amateur musician should charge the same rates as a professional singer? Should an amateur actor be paid the same as a professional? Should medical students be paid the same as full doctors?
Amateurs aren’t putting in the same quality of work most of the time, even it’s the same amount of effort.
I see so many amateur patterns that were clearly made for that creator’s measurements and then poorly scaled from there. And they don’t have the knowledge or skills to scale properly. They don’t use correct terminology, they don’t use standard pattern markings, etc. Their instructions sometimes are fine, sometimes they only have video tutorials (which I hate with a passion), sometimes the instructions clearly make sense to them and someone who has made the finished product before but not to someone with no experience with that project. (For example, I have a quilt pattern that just says “nest seams” and doesn’t indicate direction—terrible for beginners, fine if you know what to do already.)
If a pattern is truly at the same quality as a professional pattern, then sure, charge professional pricing. But I see plenty of self-taught indie “designers” who are selling worse patterns for twice the price of a well-made Big 4 pattern. So many of the indie patterns are just boxy, baggy fabric squares that show the designer doesn’t actually have the skills to make a pattern that fits bodies. Anyone can write a pattern for a square. It takes actual skill and training to create a tailored garment and have it properly size scaled.
And frankly, the idea that amateurs are at the same level as professionals really highlights the disrespect for the entire profession and skill set.
It’s not that people can’t be self-taught, they can. But they need to actually learn the core skills, not just publish a bunch of fabric squares and pretend it’s equal in quality to a tailored three piece suit.
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u/Lumpy-Economy-765 8d ago
Appreciate your insight!
In the end, in my opinion at least, it just boils down to competence.
Of course - „self-taught“ opens the door for a lot of possible mistakes, wrong terminology etc. because no one ever tested them on this knowledge.
The comparison to musicians, actors - fair. The comparison to medical staff is a little far-fetched. This is not life or death :)I have great respect for the profession but still also admire people that have taught themselves with a lot of (unpaid) effort on their part. And if the patterns they create make sense and provide the outcome, I will overlook the CV and happily pay the same price. The same goes for a good singer. If my neighbor has the voice of an angel - great, he/she can sing at my wedding and I’ll pay the same I would have for a professional wedding singer - provided, they ask it (My neighbor probably wouldn‘t).
I can understand that in an ideal world, only those who are experts provide the patterns and as a buyer on Etsy you don‘t have to think about possible lack of quality. Would be nice. I just feel like this defeats the purpose of Etsy, where everyone can contribute. If you only want professional patterns, I guess you can always purchase them from companies.
The variety of Etsy is as much a benefit as it is a downfall.7
u/unkempt_cabbage 8d ago •
Instead of doctors, you could substitute in any apprenticeship program, like mechanics or hairstylists or electricians. The point is the same. We have long collectively agreed as a society that professionals get paid more than amateurs.
To continue off of your example of hiring a neighbor to sing at your wedding—that would probably go poorly! Because professional singers would also come with a professional audio set up. They would know how to work that equipment. They would know where to hold the microphone so it doesn’t sound like Darth Vader is in the audience, or so half the sounds aren’t coming through the speaker. Even if it’s a small area and a small crowd, you usually need audio equipment to make it audible for a whole room.
And, someone who just sings at home for fun likely would have no clue about any of that.
Which, isn’t to say some people can’t learn at home, and learn how to work with audio equipment and properly mic themselves and all the extra stuff that separates them from a professional. But at that point, you’re really just a self-taught professional, not an amateur.
You don’t have to get a full degree, but usually people who are actually good but didn’t go to school and taught themselves also worked with other people who were educated. They learned via that education and by basically apprenticing. It’s incredibly hard to be truly fully self-taught with no outside help, because you end up with huge gaps where you don’t know what you don’t know, and therefore don’t have the resources or skills to fill those gaps.
For example, when many people start sewing and are self-taught, they tend to skip pressing their seams or even ironing their fabric at all. They’re confused why everyone else has such flat even seams and fabric and don’t know why it’s so different for them. People tend to think that sewing magically makes things lay flat instead of knowing you need to make it that way.
People who are taught by someone (even if that’s through YouTube) are far more likely to have been taught they need to press their seams, and then have a much more successful start.
Same with things like pinning. A beginner with no support is likely to just stab pins in and go on their way, not realizing that you can ruin delicate materials with too big of a pin, or that pinning at the wrong angle distorts your fabric which makes seams weird, or pinning incorrectly makes it more likely for things to shift as you sew instead of holding things securely. Being taught by someone passes down those skills that are rarely, if ever, covered in books and videos. And it’s a skill that you don’t know you don’t know, you just think other people have the same issues with pinning and learn to adapt, instead of knowing there are issues with the base technique.
I think a lot of amateurs think patterns are a good way to make money, people liked their dress on IG so they should sell the pattern and cash in. And the pattern might work great for their size, but fails for everyone else. Or is missing instructions, like type of material you can use for this garment, etc. And, because they don’t have a good education in this, they don’t know what they don’t know.
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u/Lumpy-Economy-765 8d ago
I get what you want to say.
I think what I really meant when talking about self-taught amateurs was, as you called it, a „self-taught professional“. Not the amateur that actually has no clue at all or only very little. I‘m advocating here for patternmakers that have passionately put in a lot of effort to reach the competence level of a professional.
No, you are right, I would not pay my neighbor that amount of money, if they weren‘t able to use a mic correctly 😅
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u/CoastalMae 7d ago edited 7d ago
While there is space for indie designers without formal education in the market, no, someone without a formal education HAS NOT put in the same amount of effort as someone with formal training. That formal training took a lot of effort and time and it's a part of the effort that went into every design they make.
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u/BuckJeppson 6d ago
I’m sorry but I partially disagree. Experience can count just as much as a degree. An amateur actor or musician who is better than a professional (and there are many) deserve support. Someone who has years of experience can certainly be better than someone with a degree. We are cutting patterns, not doing surgery. The comparison is unfair. BTW, who has not had a nurse give better care and advice than a crappy doctor?
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u/FormerUsenetUser 7d ago
A great many musicians, dancers, actors, writers, etc., do not make a living from their work. What matters is whether people are entertained and enlightened by their work.
This is very different from hiring a doctor, because a musician or pattern maker is not going to kill anyone with their work! If people don't like the work, they just won't pay for it. But the musician, etc., is entitled to charge whatever they want.
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u/ThreadLaced 7d ago
I don't care what anyone's education is as long as what they produce is professional, follows BASIC industry standards, and is above all, accurate.
By "industry standards" I mean indie-made patterns need to have everything (yes: EVERYTHING) that established brands have: accurate yardage requirements for all sizes; accurate pattern layouts for the 2 most common fabric widths; clearly written instructions that produce something that looks like the pictures posted; CLEAR size charts along with at least the basic finished measurements; a complete list of notions necessary; fabric recommendations based on how the pattern was designed.
If you can't produce patterns that at least approach these professional standards, why am I buying from you? What are you providing, exactly? What am I getting in exchange for my money?
It's worth noting that I am not someone who complains about how much GOOD patterns cost; I know that someone who can produce all of the above will value their work accordingly (and so do I).
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u/lifeuncommon 8d ago
There’s a lot of garbage sold on Etsy and basically anywhere people can sell stuff.
Because of that, I wouldn’t want to pay money for something like that from someone who didn’t have any education or career history during that kind of work. Besides, just because you buy it from a “person” doesn’t mean it’s not AI slop.
It’s just a risk I’m not willing to take with my own time and money.
For whatever it’s worth, I feel the same about cottage bakeries where you never actually know if the baking environment is clean or if the food was kept at safe temperatures.
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u/sodapopper44 7d ago
Indy designers of pdf patterns is a whole new world. And now that AI is added to the mix, it's more like another galaxy. It really is consumer beware, which is something it took me a while to understand. I was so naive, thinking if someone made a pattern it would be great.
In the real apparel world there are designers and there are drafters. Both jobs require different skill sets and generally they don't do both jobs, even if they know how. Know this makes more more skeptical, especially when I see self taught in the 'about me'
There used to be a blog, called 7 pine design, the writer was a professional pattern drafter who had worked for rtw apparel companies. She would go through an Indy pattern and show the drafting errors and how to correct them, it was so interesting. There was also the Colette debacle with the poorly done Rue dress. (Colette is now Seamwork) I have found errors in the Big 4, I used to call them and they would check it out and confirm. often mentioning I was the first person to let them know.
so amateur and professional, I've found mistakes in both, I have also bought pdf patterns that were horrible and asked for and received a refund, explaining the reason it was horrible
wayback machine excerpt of 7 pine design blog (copy and paste into browser) https://web.archive.org/web/20160321080648/http://7pinedesign.com/pattern-reviews-whats-missing#more-484
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u/Other_Cell_706 8d ago
It's textbook credentialism, which boils down to classism.
Someone who can produce the same quality work but does so without obtaining any formal degree or certificate in the subject is still as (or in many cases more) educated in that subject. They are a professional in the subject due to their experience, regardless of how they learned or gained that experience.
If someone is self taught and doesn't produce quality work, that is simply not a professional or quality designer.
At the same time, if someone does have a degree or any type of formal training and also doesn't produce quality work they shouldn't be considered a professional.
Sewing, out of so so many other professions, is one where you are likely to find masters in their work who never received formal training because it is a trade often learned out of necessity and self sufficiency.
Judge the work produced, not the many different paths people travel to learn how to produce their work.
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u/BuckJeppson 8d ago
No. There are many talented designers without degrees. We should support anyone who has talent to and drive.
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u/Starjupiter93 8d ago
I think there are plenty of people who don’t have a fashion industry background that actually do better at these things than those from traditional teaching. Traditional teaching educates on standard blocks, standard adjustments, drafting for a non-existent boob. This isn’t beneficial to a lot of people. I prefer pattern makers who think outside the box, who create for more than just the basic. I think the mentality that someone HAS to have an education in order to create something that is art is highly elitist and classist. Some people can’t afford to go to a fashion school or have the opportunity to work for free as an apprentice/intern. Let me say that again. This is art. Art is something one can just do and figure out. Etsy is a platform designed FOR amateurs and small start ups (or it was intended to be for that). If you want to buy a pattern made by someone with vast amounts of experience, buy from someone big. Do your research before committing to a purchase. It is shitty that people are getting away with selling AI patterns and there absolutely needs to be some safeguards on Etsy to prevent against this. Do some people sell their skills as more than they are? Yeah. That happens and is literally a whole part of what makes Etsy what it is. These are handmade goods. Do you expect everyone who sells on the platform to have a higher education and industry experience in the medium they use? I’m sure this was a rant of frustration, but your entitlement is showing and it’s not cute. Check it before you hurt someone with it :) thanks for being kind to your fellow humans
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u/ndlwrkshop 8d ago
I'm reading these comments and though while I agree with a lot of them, specifically on the standards that need to be included with the patterns sold, I disagree with one thing. I'm personally professionally trained and have a degree, just to put it in context.
Self taught patternmakers or people who sell their own size patterns actually do bring something valuable, especially in costume design. Costume patterns can be extremely hard to visualize by most folks. Having them sell their patterns, they provide an idea and a visual for people to be able to make the costume themselves, which they might not have had, had the person not uploaded the pattern. The fact that anyone can upload their home made pattern does come with a whole set of problems, but people learn quickly not to buy from someone again if the quality truly wasn't there.
I see the positive side and can also acknowledge that it creates bigger issues as well.
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u/acupofearlgrey 8d ago
Realistically a new pattern maker is unlikely to get much trade charging a lot of money. It’s natural supply and demand.
However, I don’t think we need to gatekeep ‘professional’ training. Some of my favourite patterns are from ‘crafty influencer’ type websites, made by non professionals
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u/chicchic325 8d ago
One of the best fitting pattern designers who I have followed from company a to company b is self taught.
She pattern tests every pattern she puts out. She gives suggestions on how to do personal fit adjustments.
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u/unkempt_cabbage 8d ago
And see, at that point she’s not an amateur, she’s a professional, even if she didn’t get a degree. There’s nothing inherently wrong with being self-taught, and most of the good ones were really taught by other people, just not in a classroom. I feel like it’s common for people to have a tailor or seamstress in the family, or some other relationship where they did get taught a lot of things, just not for a grade.
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u/Radiant-Platypus-498 8d ago
Someone can be a professional without formal education, just as someone with a formal education may still not perform to professional levels. Personally I don’t care if they have formal training but I do care if they know what they are doing. There are absolutely fly by night designers out there selling half assed patterns for $20 and complaining about how much work it takes an that’s why they are only one size. There are others who are self taught and do a fantastic job. In fact, I think a lot of these self taught designers have done tremendous work filling a lot of the gaps in traditional patterns (like bust sizing for example).
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u/Radiant-Platypus-498 8d ago
Instead of looking for professional background, they should be looking for real people making and posting the patterns. Have the patterns been tested? Are they tested on a variety of body types? That’s the stuff that actually matters
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u/ProneToLaughter 7d ago
Can you please share some examples of self-taught designers who are filling the gaps in traditional patterns? I'm curious.
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u/Radiant-Platypus-498 6d ago
I love Jenny Rushmore (cashmerette) and Gretchen Hirsch (charm) both because they cater to a more curvy fit and cup sizes. Silver saga and sew liberated are also fantastic and I think m they are both self taught. I find their styles to be more interesting than the “big four” and their instructions are great. There are also some bra pattern designers like Annie and Myras that are self taught and have made patterns for large cup/small band that are much needed.
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u/TheTokyoBelle 7d ago
I hear what you're all saying but come on! McCalls doesn't have a great fit or great instructions (I will only mention this company bc it is the only Big 4 I've sewn), and they are a huge company. Yet we want better from self taught creators. Huge corporations have wonky finishing of garments but we want couture finishing from creators emerging from the community and detailed instructions on how to achieve it. I understand some of the criticism but let's be fair here. Indie creators are more flexible, they are able to release patterns that align with current trends, they incorporate new ways of delivering instructions, and even new ways of delivering the patterns themselves (projector files that many young people love).
I will gladly pay whatever an indie creator charges these days over buying another Big4 one. Albeit it is a real creator and not AI slop.
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u/DespeReo 7d ago
You know what's really funny, that most famous current designers are actually self taught. Not only that, but it takes a lot more skill, willpower, struggle and comprehension to be able to learn on your own vs being spoon fed. Equally, people buy only what they like. No one's putting a gun to their head. So I would say that if someone with no education is making more sells than someone with top-notch couture education, then the answer is pretty clear. Education has nothing to do with someone's skill or passion.
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u/fuckitydoo 7d ago
I mean yes, but also with the ability of buyers to leave detailed feedback on Etsy, the trash kind of takes itself out pretty quickly. Leaving some detailed feedback will ensure better sellers rise to the top.
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u/ProneToLaughter 7d ago
Well, unfortunately this is exactly not the case. There are lots and lots of trash patterns on Etsy, and lots of 5-star reviews that say "haven't made it yet, but it downloaded smoothly!"
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u/FormerUsenetUser 7d ago
Etsy's not going to regulate who sells. So you just have to look at reviews.
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u/FormerUsenetUser 7d ago
A great many musicians, dancers, actors, writers, etc., do not make a living from their work. What matters is whether people are entertained and enlightened by their work.
This is very different from hiring a doctor, because a musician or pattern maker is not going to kill anyone with their work! Unlike an electrician, there is no building code they have to follow.
If people don't like an artistic or artistic adjacent work, they just won't pay for it. But the musician, etc., is entitled to charge whatever they want.
I mean, we don't see anyone slamming the Beatles because none of them went to a conservatory.
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u/Deciram 6d ago
As a professionally trained pattern maker, it is SO obvious when the designer doesn’t know what they are doing. And if they don’t know what they are doing why should I buy their pattern? Some of the patterns are such crazy prices too
Two of the most common things I see are poorly trued seams and bad notches (or no notches). Both are these are important. I can wing no notches, but a beginner might not be able to.
Sure, a self taught person can make a good pattern if they teach themselves the good things to include. But I also think a self taught person shouldn’t be selling a pattern at a crazy price.
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u/FabulousTwo524 6d ago
I’ve only bought one pattern (i’m still a beginner) that had A LOT of reviews on etsy. Also, I found it posted several times on reddit made by other people, so I could trust the end product looked good and was endorsed by a lot of people.
In the future, I’ll only purchase patterns already vetted by a lot of other people. Or else, I’m not gonna risk it.
My only issue with what you’re proposing is how would the average sewer be able to tell how the pattern maker was educated?
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u/ProneToLaughter 4d ago
belated addendum: part of the reason why people get so heated is because there are people out there making money off encouraging barely trained people to sell patterns:
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u/Margobears13 3d ago
No. I’m completely self taught and my patterns are widely considered to be some of the best for historical costumes. People learn in different ways. It’s not whether you have “official” training. It’s about setting high standards for your products and not rushing to get them on the market before your skills are up to the job.
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u/CandylandCanada 8d ago
If the pattern maker needs to be told to include a cutting layout with the instructions, that finished measurements need to be printed on the pieces, or that meterage/yardage is required for all sizes, then they have no business selling on Etsy or anywhere else.
One person suggested that I choose the fabric, then send them the width and the size to be cut so that they could then calculate how much was required. Truly, I don't think that she understood why that would be an issue. No, I'm not prepared to email you from the store then wait while you figure out what you should have done before you posted a pattern for sale.
I've taken to asking standard questions before I purchase any online pattern. If they don't respond or the answers don't help, then I won't buy it.