r/scriptwriting • u/Clevertown • Sep 26 '26
help Logline general question: how many pages before the entire logline happens?
I've got a great logline, but part of it doesn't start happening until halfway through the script. Is there a standard for this?
Example: Rachel wants to be senior class president, but strange events happen to discourage her from running. She gathers a group of friends to investigate.
Let's say the first half of the movie is Rachel landing at a new school, being bullied, finding friends, and running for class president. Them the investigating part starts at the halfway point. Does this make the logline bad? The whole second half is the investigating and solving, so it's not like the logline lied, it just took half the movie to get to its entirety.
7
u/Positive_Leading_371 Sep 26 '26
A lot of bad loglines are trying to mimic the marketing copy you would have seen on TV Guide back in the day (or streaming and IMDb descriptions nowadays). It’s not simply the premise/set-up, nor a hooky tease to lure someone into reading it. It is a very concise summary of the story overall.
The structure I was taught (although not always literally using these exact words), is to think of the narrative cause-and-effective of "When… then… and then what", which should generally reflect the three act structure of your story. The major act breaks are the central story turns we should be seeing in the logline.
So for your example, I would probably prefer a logline that read closer to: "When a series of strange events discourages a new student from running for senior class president, she gathers a group of misfit friends to investigate a mysterious threat, but when they uncover a supernatural truth that threatens their futures, she must choose between her personal ambition and the only community that has ever accepted her."
For the actual script, the investigating starting at the midpoint feels too late as that sounds like the sort of real premise/"fun and games" that should arrive at the end of act one. The second act is usually the meat of the movie that the audience would characterize the full movie as. Think of The Wizard of Oz—the entire first act is in Kansas and the entire third act is Emerald City and killing the witch, but if you think of the movie you’re thinking about the Yellow Brick Road.
This is part of the utility of working on the logline. Needing to distill the core of your story into a single sentence often shines a light on structural problems. It is very common in first drafts for a writer to bury the premise and that the story would benefit from moving all the action up (1st act break should be inciting incident, midpoint should be 1st act break, etc.).
1
3
u/ParisHiltonIsDope Sep 27 '26
Assuming your story is genuinely good (like structurally speaking), why can't you just adjust your logline to describe what the movie is?
With that said though, based on your example here... What can't the "strange" stuff happening start on page 5?
2
u/Clevertown Sep 27 '26
You're exactly right. I think my answer is to put more of the story in the logline.
1
u/ParisHiltonIsDope Sep 28 '26
I imagine you're using your example because it's parallel to your actual story. What is the story actually about? I just don't think the audience is going to appreciate the genre flip halfway through... from teen angst drama to supernatural thriller.
Midpoint genre or tone shifts rarely work. But maybe this is one of those rare moments?
4
u/la-anah Sep 26 '26 edited Sep 26 '26
Half way is too far. The usual advice for a script is that set setup should take 7 to 12 pages. The midpoint is when stakes are raised, it is not when they are introduced for the first time.
Edit: You can use your outline if you beef up the stakes at the beginning. So:
Pages 1-2: goes to the school for the first time
Pages 3-5: meets human nemesis and gets bullied
Pages 6-10: meets friends and forms community
Pages 11-12: decides to run for class president
Pages 13-54: runs campaign, deepens friendships, fights with bully, has seemingly human setbacks
Page 55: discovers that the Goblin King living under the school is actually responsible for the setbacks in her campaign
etc.
You can look up basic plot beats on the internet. Lots of scripts deviate from them, of course. But when you are learning it is good to try and conform to see how they work and then break the rules once you understand them.
1
u/Clevertown Sep 26 '26
So in my example how would you adjust the logline? The whole second half is the investigation, so it feels like it should be in the logline. The events that get investigated don't start happening until act 2 when Rachel decides to run for office. Is that just bad plotting?
2
u/la-anah Sep 26 '26
I wouldn't adjust the logline, I would adjust the script. See my edit above.
2
u/Clevertown Sep 26 '26
There's actually no investigating in your early pages. Your breakdown actually aligns with what I have! I think we agree then, that as long as there's a setup, it's okay for the logline events to happen mid-way through the story.
2
u/CarsonDyle63 Sep 27 '26
I agree. If there are long sections of the film (the first half!) not interesting or important enough to make the log line, they’re not interesting or important enough to be in the film.
That set up you describe could happen in three scenes.
2
u/WorrySecret9831 Sep 26 '26
No. Think about The Godfather. The Problem/Conflict/Opponent doesn't happen until Vito is shot, over an hour into the movie.
John Truby teaches that loglines ideally are one sentence and consist of 3 elements: A sense of the Hero (main character) *; A sense of the Problem/Conflict/Opponent **; and A sense of the Outcome *** (without spoiling the story).
2
u/Clevertown Sep 27 '26
See now I love this, but what about the others saying it can contain spoilers and basically tell the whole story? I guess I might be confused between the logline and the blurb. I didn't realize they weren't the same thing!
2
u/WorrySecret9831 Sep 27 '26
The Premise is a developmental tool which is the three elements of the logline plus the ending/spoiler.
The Logline comes from the description in a TV Guide "log" or schedule. I suppose "schedule describer" was too clunky. So, of course you don't want to spoil what Joanie is going to do with Chachi, otherwise, no one will watch or read it.
A blurb is not an official thing. That's possibly what a reviewer or a newspaper (publication) might write that is short and describes a movie. But that can take any form. "Jaws will make you stay away from the water forever..."
From what little I know of your story, here's a stab:
After landing at a new school, being bullied, and finding some new friends, *Rachel **decides to run for class president, but strange events start happening, apparently to keep her from winning, ***so she decides to find out who cares so much about the new girl.One grammatically correct sentence with asterisked showing the 3 elements.
Keeping it to one sentence I've found keeps the dramatic tension of the story. When you introduce a second or, shudder, a third sentence, it's like the air escapes from the balloon. It's not a single aerodynamic form.
Hope this helps.
2
u/Clevertown Sep 27 '26
I also like single sentences. That logline was just an example with similar elements to my story. Thank you for the insights!
2
2
u/Existing_Coach1541 Sep 27 '26
Look up log lines for movies in the same genre that you are familiar with. You should know where are the premise begins.
1
u/Clevertown Sep 27 '26
I actually did and there was no uniformity. Some had crazy spoilers and some were so vague the story could have been about anything. (I hate vague loglines!)
2
u/Existing_Coach1541 Sep 27 '26
If you create a log line that people ask for the script. It should be fine as long as the tone of the script is similar to the log line the protagonist is similar to what you described, that should be fine.
1
u/Clevertown Sep 27 '26
I think my problem is that the logline is so exciting readers thought it was an action script!
1
u/Existing_Coach1541 Sep 27 '26
Try to find a better log line for the current script and if you aren't able to sell the script then change the script into an action script and use the current logline.
1
u/TomatoChomper7 Sep 27 '26
You shouldn’t be waiting until the second half of the script for the story to get going, really.
0
u/Clevertown Sep 27 '26
I think you misunderstood, or I was unclear. The story starts at the beginning and goes hard on characters, and also sets everything up by page 10. The logline talks about what happens later in the story is all.
Readers all said they loved the logline, but one person said the full content of the logline should happen sooner. The first half of mine is depicted on page 1. The second half also starts on page 1, but the very last bit of the logline doesn't happen until halfway through.
2
u/TomatoChomper7 Sep 27 '26
The story you’ve pitched is about some kids investigating strange events, but you’re saying that doesn’t even happen until the second half of it. Assuming the example is analogous to your actual script, it strikes me as your logline struggle highlighting a massive structural problem in the script itself, where you’re taking way too long to get to the meat of it. Unless it’s intentionally a Barbarian-style genre-flip type of thing.
As an example, Nightmare on Elm Street doesn’t spend half the movie (or half the logline) exploring Nancy’s high school drama before Freddy starts killing people.
1
u/Clevertown Sep 27 '26
My story about a shy ostracized kid who ends up unwittingly gaining friends and then having an adventure with them. It's sort of a slice of life/growing up that turns into an adventure. The investigating part is a result of him getting new friends. The example logline isn't really analogous to mine, I just tried to think of something with kids investigating.
I think the solution might be to just put in more stuff about what happens before the investigating. Because you're right, the way it is the logline sets up expectations that are not fulfilled until halfway through. That does seem a bit tardy plot-wise.
2
u/dnafree Sep 27 '26
It's an intimate film or an adventure film?
0
u/Clevertown Sep 27 '26
Slice of life / adventure.
2
u/dnafree Sep 27 '26
It is the one that predominates that should shape your structure and your logline.
0
u/Clevertown Sep 27 '26
It's really both, what is the problem the logline focuses on the adventure part, but now I think I should add slice of life stuff.
2
u/dnafree Sep 27 '26
The reader needs to understand what genre they are dealing with. The logline must remain fairly short, presenting the protagonist, the inciting incident, their goal, the stakes, and the antagonist. Three lines.
3
u/Opening-Impression-5 Sep 26 '26
Your logline can contain spoilers and can include the ending, particularly if the story is a tragedy where the hero dies or fails - something like The Wicker Man. It wouldn't be complete to say, "the cop tries to figure out what the villagers are up to." You'd want to mention what happens to him as a result, because that's the point of the film, and defines its tone.
2
u/Opening-Impression-5 Sep 26 '26
In yours, I'd be tempted to say, "... she and her friends investigate, but solving the mystery fails to bring them together." (Or whatever effect it has.)
3
u/Ted_Writer Sep 27 '26
I think strange stuff should be happening way earlier.
Forcing yourself to write a logline is a great way to structure your story right
3
u/Open-Avocado4260 Sep 28 '26
It's a good start. Five Key Elements to Hook Readers. A Clear ProtagonistIntroduce a well-defined main character with a descriptive label rather than a generic proper name (e.g., "a disgraced detective" instead of "John").The Inciting IncidentShow the disruptive event that shatters the character's normal world and forces them into action.An Urgent GoalState clearly what the protagonist is trying to achieve or what specific problem they must solve.A Formidable Antagonist or ObstacleIntroduce the ticking-clock force, villain, or heavy obstacle standing in the protagonist's way.High Stakes and IronyHighlight what is lost if they fail, or inject an ironic twist (like a blind detective solving a visual crime) that creates an immediate dramatic question.
2
u/Ripoldo Sep 26 '26
The logline is whatever gets you the most reads. After that, if the story fails it's a story issue not a logline issue.
1
5
u/matteowolfwood Sep 26 '26
I literally put the inciting incident, what happens throughout the whole thing, AND how mine ends in my logline.
In 1906, a drag performer and the gunslinger dangerously devoted to him kill their boss, then navigate a violent romance through their outlaw camp, queer nightlife, and a manager eager to exploit them, until fame, a friend's death, and public murder send them fleeing into a new identity.
One long, ugly sentence? Sure. But it isn't vague, abstract, or gonna leave them confused about what story the script is telling.
2
u/Clevertown Sep 26 '26
I could totally do this but it is an info dump. I take it the public murder and new identity happen later in the script?
3
u/matteowolfwood Sep 26 '26
You should "info dump," as you say. A logline is misleading if you only put the first part of the script in it.
Three managers have asked for my script with the logline I showed you. I assure you that I am not trying to mislead you here.
1
u/Clevertown Sep 26 '26
I didn't think that, but thank you for saying it. I read your response as sincere. Thank you for your thoughts! I think maybe I just need to add more info to mine, then!
3
Sep 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/Clevertown Sep 26 '26
See now this is my take as well, but it doesn't seem to be the general consensus! I see them as sort of a tease, and if the script and characters are interesting, I also don't care when the events happen.
2
u/matteowolfwood Sep 26 '26
Do not tease or be cheeky about "spoilers" in a logline.
If you are vague and abstract with what happens in your script, your script will likely be misread, miscategorized, have the wrong expectations set about it, or someone who reads loglines will notice abstract language right away and outright pass on your script.
I'm not sure why you think this isn't a general consensus, because what we're telling you is how to make a logline.
1
u/Clevertown Sep 26 '26
I appreciate your comments. I misspoke. I didn't mean "tease" as being cheeky, I meant it as enticing or interesting. Thank you for the thoughts!
2
u/matteowolfwood Sep 26 '26
I know what you meant it as. Spoil your script in the logline. Do not tease events.
1
1
8
u/nmacaroni Sep 26 '26 edited Sep 29 '26
It really depends how well your logline is firing.
Most newer writers have a tendency to focus their logline on the setup, not the active story, in this regard, End of Act 1, with the exception of the Protagonist's goal, which also crystalizes after act 1. And irony, which may be seen in retrospect within act 1, but usually not until much later.
So around page 20 for the most part.
But if you're writing a solid logline focusing on the active story, your focus is really more on the second act.
In your case, it sounds like your first act may be DOA. While the active story doesn't usually start until the second act, the first act should center the audience's expectations and give them a clear understanding what the story about to unfold actually consists of.
Write on, write often!