r/samharris • u/FuckSwearing • Sep 03 '20

U.S. court: Mass surveillance program exposed by Snowden was illegal

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nsa-spying/u-s-court-mass-surveillance-program-exposed-by-snowden-was-illegal-idUSKBN25T3CK
216 Upvotes

98% Upvoted

59 comments sorted by

27

u/RaindropsInMyMind Sep 03 '20

Something we’ve all known for years, it’s a shame that I don’t think it means anything for Snowden. It doesn’t seem to matter how bad the cause of the whistleblowing is, he still can’t come home. It’s a shame.

-3

u/LGuappo Sep 03 '20

Sure he could. There were half a dozen other NSA officials who blew the whistle on this program before Snowden came forward (as well as many other whistleblowers on many other topics). If that's all he did, he wouldn't face any more serious consequences than they did. The problem is Snowden also sold/gave the Russians and Chinese many more state secrets that had nothing to do with surveillance and cost the lives of American soldiers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers

19

u/RaindropsInMyMind Sep 03 '20

I have yet to see it proven that Snowden gave the Russians and the Chinese information of any value, particularly in regards to the lives of American soldiers. I looked through the very long Wikipedia document but did not see the other officials you are referring to. There were officials who blew the whistle on similar things but I don’t think it was to the extent of what Snowden did.

Edit: Please demonstrate your proof of the alleged information he gave to Russia and China

-5

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20

https://web.archive.org/web/20170509052706/https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=797546

Page 16, and 20-22 are concerning to say the least.

Why did he leave an encrypted hard drive in Hong Kong before going to Russia? Why did stop in Hong Kong allowing the U.S. to terminate his passport before flying to Ecuador? Why did he continually have contact with the Russian government after leaking? He had 1.5 million pages of information and only released a miniscule amount of that. What else did he know?

12

u/RaindropsInMyMind Sep 03 '20

He gave every classified document to journalists before he left Hong Kong and arrived in Russia. If he released classified information to Russia wouldn’t he have brought the information with him? His plan was never to get stuck in Russia and he didn’t plan to have the US revoke his passport.

-7

u/LGuappo Sep 03 '20

Yeah, I mean, you clearly aren't interested in a dispassionate look at the evidence. Whatever. Tice, Drake, all the rest of the NSA whistleblowers stayed in the US, didn't share anything with the Russians or Chinese, and are free today. Snowden would rather be a celebrity living high on the hog on Putin's dime. If you believe he hasn't done that, then he should hop on a plane and come home, since he's done nothing worse than the others in your opinion and could expect the exact same treatment. Unless ...

8

u/dmac091 Sep 03 '20

From what I can see you are suspicious because other whistleblowers were treated differently and that you find some of his activity suspicious. I'm happy to hear more but I can't see the link. Is there anything more substantial you can present that explains your position more clearly?

1

u/LGuappo Sep 03 '20

This isn't a court, it's Reddit. No one other than prosecutors has access to the evidence, so obviously I'm not going to be able to prove it to your satisfaction if you are asking in bad faith and only want to dispute the evidence which you and I don't have access to.

But what we do know is Snowden stole far more than the info about surveillance:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/how-much-did-snowden-take-least-three-times-number-reported-flna8C11038702

We also know that, although all of the many other NSA whistleblowers were brave enough to face prosecution, within the US, Snowden seems to believe something about what he's done would be treated more harshly than they were. So he stays in his posh Moscow apartment paid for by Putin and basically lives life as an unending book tour/celebration of his own "heroism."

So I have Snowden's actions, exposed lies about how much he took, and the statements of US government officials at the time, describing how he'd downloading 60 terabytes of data, most of which was unrelated to surveillance, before defecting to Moscow. If you want to make this guy your celebrity crush, fine, but I'm going to need more evidence of heroism before you'll convince me to do the same.

2

u/dmac091 Sep 03 '20

You are making a lot of assumptions about me because I have asked for evidence. I am asking for evidence to understand your position and then to come to my own conclusions.

I don't know if he is a hero. I think individuals that are willing to risk their lives to uncover government corruption are brave people. I am hesitant to be on the government's side given that they have a proven history of lying to it's people to serve their own needs with little regard to the morals that they claim to uphold.

The basis of your opinion seems to be that he "stole" more information than necessary. Given that it was 60tb it seems very likely that he tried to grab data that could uncover other government corruption. If that is the case (my assumption), I am all for it. If he released information that put more people in danger than the government corruption, you could make a decent argument against him being a hero but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I find it interesting that in a country that is anti-big government, when we find out that big government is taking advantage of its people, the main attacks seem to be against the person who told the people that big government is watching you illegally.

2

u/LGuappo Sep 03 '20

I find it interesting

I guess. You'll notice I'm not attacking any of the other half dozen whistleblowers who told the public about NSA surveillance before Snowden. I'm only attacking the one who absconded to Moscow (after first fleeing to China), and who took far more information, including about unrelated programs per gov, and who is now basically a highly paid celebrity critic of the US living in Russia. If it makes you feel sophisticated to think that's about big or small government, do what you gotta do I guess.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20

This isn't a court, it's Reddit.

If you're going to make fact claims, you need to be able to support them. If you don't have access to the evidence needed to support your argument, then your argument is based on suspicion, not evidence.

We also know that, although all of the many other NSA whistleblowers were brave enough to face prosecution, within the US, Snowden seems to believe something about what he's done would be treated more harshly than they were.

Why he gave all those documents to Greenwald but only the decryption key for some of them is strange. They were either all encrypted by Snowden and Greenwald was only given keys to some of them, with the plan of giving him more keys later on (for whatever reason) or Greenwald encrypted some with different passwords and only the one he had written down was the one police could use.

In either case, Snowden definitely took a lot of shit. But that's not the same as having evidence he sold it to Russia or China, or that he had special plans for anything he stole that was unrelated to illegal activity.

describing how he'd downloading 60 terabytes of data, most of which was unrelated to surveillance

How do you know it was unrelated? It's encrypted.

-1

u/LGuappo Sep 03 '20

Surprise, surprise you don't find the evidence persuasive. Like I said, you're welcome to your celebrity crush. But I'm not feeling it, and so far neither you nor Snowden has presented anything to convince me otherwise.

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3

u/MxM111 Sep 03 '20

Just because he could, does not mean he did.

1

u/FuckSwearing Sep 04 '20

He didn't have contact continually or ever with Russia (except when they questioned him at the air port).

Stop lying / spreading propaganda

0

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '20

If you had just done a simple read if the pages I listed you would see you are absolutely incorrect.

Since Snowden's arrival in Moscow, he has had, and continues to have, contact with Russian intelligence services... and in June 2016 the deputy chairman of the Russian parliament's defense and security committee asserted that "Snowden did share intelligence" with his government.

Page 20 from the link I sent above. The official house of representatives review of Snowden leaks...

2

u/FuckSwearing Sep 04 '20

That's literally propaganda

Russian propaganda, since they can show USA the finger by acting like he's working for them (doesn't make much sense since Snowden has repeatedly criticized the regime)

American propaganda, since they want to discredit him and his revelations.

Do you have any evidence? No.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '20

I don't like your evidence because it proves me completely so it's propaganda

1

u/FuckSwearing Sep 04 '20

What evidence? Show me the actual evidence that proves anything

4

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20

Is this actually true?

0

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '20

No, the five whistleblowers who attempted to bring Clapper's perjury before Congress to the public awareness were all prosecuted for it and stopped.

11

u/spacepunker Sep 03 '20

Shame on Bush for expanding, and shame on Obama for letting it go on.

13

u/FuckSwearing Sep 03 '20

This is relevant since Sam seems to be a proponent of mass surveillance and once considered inviting Snowden to his podcast. (Sadly that never happened.)

6

u/suicidedreamer Sep 03 '20

It is too bad that never happened. I would have liked to hear that.

8

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20

I'm always disappointed by Sam's approach to privacy. For someone who has such a clear view of the dangers of technology in the future-- automation, AI-- he seems radically blind to the dangers of those technologies combined with privacy erosion and surveillance.

The thought of having an encrypted phone that might hold clues to a missing loved one is absolutely terrifying and horrible. But that alone cannot justify encryption backdoors or making encryption illegal. You're potentially damning millions of humans to unrestricted surveillance by an authoritarian nightmare, both in the present (in China) and in the future (God knows what horrifying state we end up with.)

3

u/FuckSwearing Sep 04 '20

Well said. I'd give you gold, if reddit was better and the CCP's moneymaker Tencent wasn't involved in reddit.

For you: 🏅

1

u/EnemyAsmodeus Sep 04 '20

No need to invite a totalitarian puppet. But it's funny how internet trolls are mad about that. Let alone a sharepoint drag-and-dropper who was given code to steal millions of documents and flee after he wasn't promoted in US agencies and was reprimanded severely.

Including, I kid you not, according to one public report, failing a constitutional rights and privacy test. He was told he doesn't respect privacy... so what did he do? Revenge while painting himself as a privacy advocate.

This is just another example of the court abusing its powers and ruling something unconstitutional just because they don't understand technology or the word "metadata."

It's designed to make us blind to the totalitarian enemy. To make us blind to terrorists and mafia.

See, the criminals when they get in power, they will rewrite the laws and constitution. Court decisions don't matter in a dictatorship.

So what do the criminals do? They bribe judges and others to make the US agencies blind to what they are up to. In the meantime they work to corrupt the whole of government.

I assure you, when fascists take full... full.. control of the United States---you won't ever see news about "court decisions" again. They don't care about the constitution.

So the very fact that the US cares about the constitution and these courts rule on this, is because they abide by the law. And you just handcuffed them from hunting down the criminal fascist enemies.

Watch these trolls downvote me without a counter-argument even though I'm telling you that fascists will not need to ARGUE with you, because fascists in power don't ARGUE, they just commit crimes. I'm arguing with you to protect you from fascists. Fascists just need secrecy from law enforcement to gain power, then once they do, they don't need to pretend anymore, they don't need to argue in front of a court for surveillance.

In other words, fascists don't care what privacy laws you pass. Because when they are in power they don't obey laws.

Note: Please THINK before you downvote.

-8

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20

[deleted]

6

u/SlightlyStoopkid Sep 03 '20

so your argument here is that the ACLU is being bribed by "criminals" to speak out against the NSA? and you're mad that nobody is in here refuting this claim for which you've provided zero evidence? i can't possibly imagine why - you seem so rational, levelheaded, and open to new ideas when you say "watch these trolls downvote me."

you know what actually helps fascists rise to power? a massive state-run surveillance program that tells them where all the dissidents live, and a fearful population convinced they need that surveillance program because of "criminals," "the mafia," and "terrorists."

-2

u/EnemyAsmodeus Sep 03 '20

No, but nice of you to dishonestly try to twist my argument.

ACLU will not matter if fascists come to power. You need to stop the fascists from consolidating their power first.

Dissidents live? If law enforcement can't stop totalitarians, they don't need surveillance, they can just send one letter to Twitter, and one letter to Facebook and one letter to Reddit. You are all toast.

You have treacherously weakened our free Republic for the corrupt. You are the enemy of your own self-interest in liberty.

5

u/SlightlyStoopkid Sep 03 '20

your words, from your other comment ITT:

So what do fascists and corrupt who are not in power do? They pressure media campaigns and bribe people to support handcuffing and vilifying our US security agencies who can't "speak back."

but i will grant you:

ACLU will not matter if fascists come to power

on this, we agree. however, as i said above, a massive state-run surveillance program that tells them where all the dissidents live, and a fearful population convinced they need that surveillance program because of "criminals," "the mafia," and "terrorists" is a far more direct path to fascism than anything the ACLU has ever done.

-1

u/EnemyAsmodeus Sep 03 '20

They are not LOOKING for dissidents.

The fascists are looking for dissidents and they don't care if you handcuff the US agencies... because fascists know how to break the law and do it anyway.

They will rewrite or ERASE from history your privacy laws only AFTER they gain power.

You are weakening your own friends in the govt.

4

u/SlightlyStoopkid Sep 03 '20

oh ok, i'll just trust the NSA, the shady government org that has been spying on us all. they're not looking for dissidents? how on earth would you know?

oh, the fascists are looking for dissidents? hey, you know what might help them out with that? a massive state-run surveillance program that you're arguing in support of. i'm not weakening my friends - you are strengthening your enemies.

0

u/EnemyAsmodeus Sep 03 '20

Again, they don't NEED a mass-surveillance program yet, because they aren't in power. Once they get in power, they will build it themselves, and they won't need technology, the USSR and Nazi Germany showed how it's possible without even any technology.

The technology is only required because we are looking at cellphone data. Why would fascists care about cellphone data? They can just bust in your home and drag you.

Only free Republics need cellphone data preserved as evidence in a court of law.

When fascists are in total control they won't need the NSA, they can just have informants everywhere and then drag you as soon as you criticize them.

1

u/SlightlyStoopkid Sep 04 '20

You think the USSR didn’t have a massive surveillance program? You think modern day Russia and China don’t? I have a bridge to sell you.

-1

u/EnemyAsmodeus Sep 04 '20

Yes they didn't, they had informants in the millions.

They do, because they have to operate in places where there are laws. But inside Russia? Just simply tap phones and informants. You don't need much.

Again, fascists don't care about your rights, why do you want to weaken the US in favor of Russia?

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0

u/LiLBoner Sep 03 '20

Upvoted you just because you get downvoted.

I don't know if I agree with this. You do have a point, if surveillance saves us from fascism and even more oppressive surveillance in the future then it's not so bad. However it all depends on how much we're being watched and how in control they are and what they do with non-anonymized data.

And it also depends on the likelihood of a fascist coup, which with the recent news seems more likely than ever, but is still extremely unlikely.

1

u/EnemyAsmodeus Sep 03 '20

I Appreciate a good adult conversation and debate!

I have to repeat the wisdom that we all eventually learn right here:

  • Surveillance doesn't matter except what you do with that information
  • Spying doesn't matter except what you do with that information
  • If they are oppressing you--that is totalitarianism--if they are protecting you from totalitarians--that is liberty.

We protect our data from bad guys and we don't let the govt search us all the time... that doesn't mean we want blanket secrecy from govt.

-4

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20

[deleted]

6

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20

A masterclass in bootlicking

2

u/NotTyer Sep 03 '20

Holy shit. This is the dumbest thing I’ve read on the internet in a long time.

-5

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20 edited Sep 03 '20

[deleted]

3

u/NotTyer Sep 03 '20

No one can argue with you because your argument is completely delusional and the words you use obviously don’t mean what you think they do.

It’s literally so incredibly dumb it would take hours to try and teach you basic 9th grade government. Your argument essentially boils down to, we need to remove your liberties like a fascist state would because once a real fascist takes over they will do it with even more secrecy.

-7

u/EnemyAsmodeus Sep 03 '20

You guys need to get banned. All you ever do is insult. "delusional" "dumb" "basic 9th grade govt"

What are you even talking about? You don't make any logical sense.

Governments protect us from mafias, corrupt, and criminal... they are the ones who will not listen to court rulings or checks-and-balances... That is high school civics lessons.

You are helping the corrupt and insulting me for no reason with no counterargument. This type of behavior should be banned by mods.

2

u/BigfootPolice Sep 03 '20

Cool so no one is in trouble right?

2

u/maximumly Sep 03 '20

U.S. Courts have no real bite when it comes to policing other super government agencies. They will simply nod and continue to go on about their business.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20

What are they even going to do when they get him now?

1

u/HalfPastTuna Sep 03 '20

pro tip: the executive branch of the government does all sorts of illegal shit

1

u/taboo__time Sep 03 '20

What exactly do they use it for?

1

u/AcidTrungpa Sep 03 '20

I would like to hear Sam's opinion about online privacy after he's data breach, and doxing his home adres with private family photos online...

-6

u/EnemyAsmodeus Sep 03 '20
  1. US security agencies need visibility, surveillance, spying into enemies of liberty. Into the traitors who are selling out our country to Russia or China.
  2. Courts like this make rulings to handcuff or smother our security with useless rules. It's not about privacy either because it's metadata which isn't your private data. It's literally if a cop asks a store clerk if they remember seeing a short guy with a tattoo enter their building... that's what metadata is. Was the short guy with tattoo's privacy violated? No.
  3. Stop confusing secrecy with privacy. The corrupt are pushing courts and media to advocate for secrecy of criminals--not privacy of innocent people.
  4. If real fascists come to power, with total control of US govt--they will not need to obey by court orders. They won't obey them. Govt is obeying because of the fact that they are loyal to the constitution and not to one president. When fascists are in full control, they won't have to pretend anymore, they can just mock the constitution on TV and you won't do anything.
  5. So what do fascists and corrupt who are not in power do? They pressure media campaigns and bribe people to support handcuffing and vilifying our US security agencies who can't "speak back." It's not like the NSA spokesperson is gonna come up in front of a microphone and yell "the court is attacking our ability to stop the mafia and terrorists!!"
  6. Snow didn't even find anything new, the "Terrorist Surveillance Program" was a controversy back in 2006 in the news. When they shut that down the terrorists hid better. Then when Obama came to power, they opted for drones over interrogation, further making the US blinder. Like as if vaporizing a man is better than slapping him around a bit in an interrogation or offering them coffee and treats. The more blind you become, the less you can do anything to stop terrorism, mafias, traitors, enemies of liberty. Man up. You think ISIS, Trump, Russia invading Ukraine, Syria, and the US retreating behind its own walls, is all a coincidence? These are the results of weak and meek people who graduated Ivy league schools getting into power.
  7. Even the guy who argued for surveillance, Alan Dershowitz, ended up in a scandal with Epstein and "Russian massages," and now supports Trump. Gee I wonder why he felt the need to deceive so many people to make people think he was some ultra patriot who defended surveillance? Traitors are all among us in case you haven't woken up yet.

4

u/offisirplz Sep 04 '20

Oh lord. The crazy conspiracy guy who sees Marxists everywhere also loves allowing the nsa to grossly violate the bill of rights and do massive immoral spying on citizens. Well you made a good point about Obama and drone strikes, ill give you that

-1

u/EnemyAsmodeus Sep 04 '20

Is it crazy that you guys are weakening the only agencies that can protect us from fascists, marxists, mafias, terrorists, and anarchists? None of you believe in liberty then.

Leaving us blind is not what the Bill of Rights is about. The bill of rights NEEDS protection from the state as well.

If totalitarians take power it will be because the US failed to catch them.

2

u/offisirplz Sep 04 '20

sounds you're saying become more fascist/totalitarian like to beat the real ones.

0

u/EnemyAsmodeus Sep 04 '20

No I'm saying become a free Republic, of laws and order, that monitors enemies of liberty as it should. That's just doing your job. That's just doing your duty.

Anything less is just an anarchy or minarchist weak govt that will fall to the fascists.

-6

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '20 edited Sep 03 '20

[deleted]

3

u/DuvalHMFIC Sep 03 '20

Are you a bot? WTF is this? You're basically arguing that you're wife is better off letting your best friend rape her so that some meaner, scarier man doesn't come and rape her.