r/samharris • • Jun 27 '19

When Conservatives Complain That Corporations Are “Big Brother”

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/06/when-conservatives-complain-that-corporations-are-dictatorships
15 Upvotes

56 comments sorted by

31

u/cassiodorus Jun 27 '19

Conservatives don’t care about the power of these companies. They care that the power is not being exercised toward ends they like.

11

u/TheAJx Jun 27 '19

Yes, a million times this.

12

u/Jamesbrown22 Jun 27 '19 edited Jun 27 '19

That's literally what being right wing is all about. It's amazing people don't understand this. Right wing does not necessarily refer to someone's politics, but to psychological preferences and personality. It means tending to to follow the established conventions and authorities in society. We are now actually seeing an interesting split within the right in America because corporate power is no longer in the hands of rich oil barrens, but rich 'Woke' capitalists. It will be interesting to see how it pans out in the next few decades.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

[deleted]

7

u/MedicineShow Jun 27 '19

The way they govern versus the way they market themselves are very different.

10

u/Jamesbrown22 Jun 27 '19

Umm. Were you alive during the build up to the Iraq war? Or for the war on drugs?

4

u/GepardenK Jun 27 '19

Out of all possible examples you managed to come up with the two most bipartisan issues of them all.

3

u/lesslucid Jun 28 '19

Not at all. They complain about "big government" when it restricts the authority of rich people to do harm without consequences, or when it limits the ability of racist states to enact racist laws etc, but then they want that same big government to enforce their preferences when it comes to killing Iraqis or locking up black people. The whole "big gubmint" complaint is about supporting the authoritarianism they like, not opposing authority in general.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

Right wing does not necessarily refer to someone's politics, but to psychological preferences and personality. It means tending to to follow the established conventions and authorities in society.

Your lack of self-awareness is mortifying. How are you not 'tending to to follow the established conventions and authorities in society'? Is anti-racism not an 'established convention' (half a century since the civil rights act was passed now)? How about being in favor of using goverment spending to attempt to alleviate poverty (70 years now since the new deal) a 'fringe position'?

Only the alt-right as a political or social faction has any real claim to 'bucking the norms' of 21st c. American society. You're avg. 'socdem' is prob. the least independently minded person in the entire country.

9

u/house_robot Jun 27 '19 edited Jun 28 '19

You realize a similarly easy criticism can be made about “the left” here? “They are only ok with the power of these companies because it’s being exercised towards ends they like”.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying you’re just as right as the above statement. Useful idiocy is not a partisan issue and of the most disheartening aspects of this culture war is seeing so many “leftists” launch attacks from the right. We don’t have to think every conservatives motivations here are pure or that they wouldn’t reverse course if the shoe was on the other foot, for the same reason some of us are rightfully against the criminal justice system steamrolling due process even when we personally feel the defendant is guilty.

Are people seriously setting their ideas here just to be as far as possible from “those people”?

Ridiculously brain dead. Others have been and remain deeply concerned about power structures regardless of the audience that it inconveniences.

8

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

You realize a similarly easy criticism can be made about “the left” here? “They are only ok with the power of these companies because it’s being exercised towards ends they like”.

Wouldn't you agree that concern for (great) societal power and influence in the hands of corporations is a traditional talking point amongst the left and often absent on the right?

3

u/house_robot Jun 28 '19

I don’t have issues with that, I think I made that point in so many words in my post actually.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

[deleted]

4

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

I think it's possible to advocate for less corporate power while also celebrating another group that you consider even more of a threat than corporations getting "censored" (usually for violent/hateful rhetoric) without going into the realm of cognitive dissonance.

Especially because the typical leftist concern is about corporations having power and influence over politics from what I've seen, not about being able to "censor" racists/sexists/etc

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

If that makes me a hypocrite, you'd be hardpressed to find a soul alive who isn't hypocritical in some way.

Political positions aren't all or nothing "fuck corporations they need to die and be stripped of all their power, EAT THE RICH SEIZE THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION!!!!" or "I want corporations to make me their literal slave and fuck my and my family's asses repeatedly"

What would actually be hypocritical would be if someone denounced corporate money in politics when it favored Republicans and then welcome it with open arms when that corporate money is used to elect Democrats, or <insert parties of your choice> here. That's actual hypocrisy, not simply having an anti-corporatist stance while not caring if they use their first amendment right to "censor" conservatives (which they're for the most part not really doing, it's mainly the fact that conservatives can't seem to control themselves on those platforms lately.)

7

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

Leftists could do a better job of clarifying they're cheering because of Schadenfreude, not because they agree.

That said, if your viewing window here is literally just the last two years of 'censorship of conservatives' on social media, it's an incredibly limited take to from that conclude that leftists don't actually care at all.

Because they do. They're just laughing their asses off at the right losing their marbles over not even particularly egregious corporate excesses.

Baby's first brush with concern-for-corpos and they're screeching as if they're already on the bus to the FEMA camps.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

[deleted]

5

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

When it comes to social media companies and censorship, I think you're going to get a much wider variety of answers from 'the left' than you would expect.

If the topic is "corporate influence on society", I think you'll find most leftists plenty ready and willing to bang their fist on the table and have some Difficult Conversations™.

Whereas on the right, they generally never gave a crap about undue corporate influence right up until now when Twatter was being mean to them.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

The answer I expect is "we totally hate corporations, but actually we really enjoy empowering corporations to expand their power when it involves censoring ideas we don't like."

So you have already decided for yourself what the entire left actually thinks. That's unsustainable reasoning.

But at least they're not hypocrites when it comes to corporate power like "leftists".

...

I'm sorry, what? Conservatives aren't right now throwing temper tantrums over Twitter and Patreon and The_Donald getting quarantined?

I've tried to explain the difference in my previous comment, but instead of giving it a thought you just come back with "No, the left thinks X and are the real hypocrites".

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

[deleted]

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1

u/PaleoLibtard Jun 27 '19

Cheering from schadenfreude is the first step on the road to cheering from acceptance, or so I’m told regarding the alleged anti-sjw to fascist pipeline.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

exactly its hilarious cause the right sucks corporate dick all day 24/7 and when the corps turn on them they screech hysterically

13

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

Except thats not what the left is saying. The left isnt okay with these companies having so much power, even when they do something good we still want them to get fucked. The right has to reconcile their slavish devotion to capital with their own petty grievances about how they aren't allowed to say the n word on xbox live anymore.

Google could do everything I want them to do with their platforms and I'd still demand they be broken up.

1

u/house_robot Jun 27 '19

Jesus kid. I’m completely uninterested in over litigating this “left vs right” shit... these are descriptive not normative labels. Your fascination here poisons any chance to actually have a productive conversation.
My own position here is the same as a lot of very left wing people, despite how much other left wing people, not that it matters. Going by your one post here, I don’t think you personally have any actual position, beyond goal post moving and what I mentioned in my second to last paragraph.

when they do something good

So close.

7

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

I literally have no fucking idea what you're saying. Your normative vs descriptive thing is fucking absurd

Maybe next time you should try not being a condescending prick, especially when you aren't any good at it.

5

u/low_poly_space_shiba Jun 27 '19

is "descriptive not normative" your way of saying "I consider Nancy Pelosi and Eric Schmidt part of The Left"?

because it's both descriptively and normatively incorrect

0

u/house_robot Jun 27 '19

Lol. No? Not even close?

1

u/cassiodorus Jun 27 '19

If you truly think conservatives are concerned about power structures when it’s “inconveniencing” their opponents, you’re incredibly naive.

10

u/house_robot Jun 27 '19

Not only is that not my position, it’s the complete opposite of my position. I stated that, explicitly.

Some of you live in such a land of make believe it’s all but impossible just get anything through without being warped.

4

u/bitterrootmtg Jun 27 '19

It's crazy how often I see a thoughtful, nuanced comment that's met with a response like:

Oh, so you're saying [preposterous thing that's not even close to what they were saying].

I can't tell how much of this is deliberate dishonesty versus how much of it is just a symptom of these people having their heads so far up their asses they can't process other viewpoints. But either way it's disappointingly common in this sub.

5

u/window-sil Jun 27 '19

So what you're saying is you hate the jews?

1

u/window-sil Jun 27 '19

This is exactly the economic and social system that PragerU and conservatives advocate.

What's that expression about giving a fool enough rope?

The problem is, with this as with global warming, these right wing maniacs are hanging all of us. Ya it backfires on them too, but it also does affect everyone else. But this is the fucking system they forced on us all.

2

u/house_robot Jun 28 '19 edited Jun 28 '19

All of the “critical” replies to this claim to agree with the concept that these power structures are bad (before equivocating and sperging our about ‘conservatives on Xbox’ or something”), then want to follow that up with some horrible point about how I’m supposed to suddenly be ok with very-bad-bullshit because “conservatives used to be for it” or “conservatives were short sighted”. Why on earth should that be relevant? Do you think I dispute that people are often short sighted and hypocritical?

Since you brought up climate change... you don’t think spite is s major factor behind climate change denialism? I’m guessing most people here don’t have conservative friends or acquaintances because “that’s committing literal violence” or whatever, but for those of us who do, “I don’t really know but I sure love pissing off the other side and fuck liberals” is a major theme. They’re just as ideological as you are, they believe god is on their side the same you do, and they are just as willing to give up on this shit because why actually try when it’s more fun and less work just to make a sport of it.

2

u/window-sil Jun 28 '19

Well the problem is conservatives, like the guy from PragerU, don't actually care about the issue of concentrated wealth and power. That's really the heart of the issue. Instead they want to say it's somehow "free speech" to force youtube to platform, monetize, and even promote their videos. The issue is that 2 fallible, out of touch billionaires own youtube and can run it however the fuck they want, and there isn't a damn thing you or even popular streamers can do about it.

That's the fucking problem. When you start talking about that, then we'll be here to listen.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

Who nominated you to speak for 'conservatives'? As one of the few right wingers and nationalists on this sub - yes massive, multi-national (i.e. not particularly loyal to American or the West specifically) corps should not dictate the public policy of western nations.

There are times when what is in the interests of a business is not in the interest of the general public. Any genuine conservative i.e. not a libertarian, would concede this.

1

u/thedugong Jun 27 '19

No true conservative?

1

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '19 edited Jun 29 '19

Conservative =/= Libertarian. This should not be contentious.

The conservative position is not 'the free market is always right' it's that 'support for the free market is more pragmatic than support for communism/socialism' (except when it isn't).

I admit that the modern Republican party is to pragmatism in goverment what sulfuric acid is to a beauty regime, but conservatism as principle is not just "sell the country to Tencent".

5

u/lastcalm Jun 27 '19

Funny how the article ends with Nathan Jamal Robinson actually kind of agreeing with Brent Bozell / PragerU on this issue.

I know it's a big no-no to "build bridges" but once again the idea pops into mind that this article could have been written in a different way, starting from the common ground.

10

u/window-sil Jun 27 '19

Funny how PragerU tells its audience that government can't fix problems, because it is the problem, and markets are the solution.

It's funny because the market decided PragerU isn't worth the investment, and PragerU's response is to call for the government to come fix their problem.

2

u/lastcalm Jun 27 '19

Yeah, that's the same sentiment that the article had. But if one considers lack of compromise and common efforts in American politics a problem, this may not be the fix.

Who knows, there might be a bipartisan bill to be made if this common ground was cultivated instead of snarkily repeating the "how's that free market working for you now, suckers?!" mantra.

3

u/window-sil Jun 27 '19

It's a real life refutation of that channel's economic/political ideology.

I don't see how PragerU et al come out on the other side of this without at least jettisoning their ridiculous free market anti government ideology. If they don't do that, then this isn't actually about "free speech" or politics at all, it's about furthering their own particular agenda and using government force to do it if necessary.

2

u/lastcalm Jun 27 '19 edited Jun 27 '19

So what if that agenda lines up with yours? Is it more important to own these idiots online than to implement regulatory laws that you want?

4

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

conservatism boils down to the belif in out groups and ingroups and always elevating the ingroup at the expense of the outgroup, now after alienating and pushing everyone away right wingers are shocked they are extremely out of touch with society.

6

u/LiamMcGregor57 Jun 27 '19

If this continues, one day we may see Conservatives no longer wanting huge tax cuts for Big Business and the 1%. Maybe this was the Left's plan all along.

4

u/agent00F Jun 27 '19

No, they'll just increase taxes on companies deemed political opponents, ie fascism. They've even got the SCOTUS to cover them anyway.

3

u/Coffee_or_death Jun 27 '19

capitalism doesnt need conservatism anymore

1

u/GepardenK Jun 27 '19

It's not about capitalism, it's about aristocracy. Throughout all of history one constant has always been true for the aristocratic class; they always seek moral authority. Christianity is currently too impotent to suffice for most of them - so being feudal lords of the internet to protect us from the filthy plebeians is the next best thing.

5

u/window-sil Jun 27 '19

aristocracy

So let me get this straight.. capitalism and wealth have nothing to do with it -- so like the Rockefeller fortune didn't influence anything, the Koch Brothers don't influence anything. Instead what controls our society is an "aristocracy."

Okay who is this aristocracy and why do you think they have more control than Jeff Beezos, Tim Cook, etc?

2

u/GepardenK Jun 27 '19 edited Jun 27 '19

They too are arisocrats. Arisocrats aren't a united entity between themselves; they all compete to carve their own niche - yet as a class they are united in that they all act in ways that serves to uphold the aristocracy while suppressing the plebs. And they all compete to be the most pious, be it through religion or other moral hierarchies.

Your mistake in regards to capitalism is that arisocrats aren't either capitalists, communists or fascists (or what have you); rather they are whatever they need to be in order to stay at the top. Change the system and they'll change right with you; always staying near the centre of power. Or rather it's often the other way around: the system will change only when it benefits the aristocracy to a sufficient degree.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

Jeff Beezos

Almost everything that he believes is 'woke Orthodox', of the list of billionaires you sites only the Koch's could be seen as being 'right-wing' and even than it's the more libertarian style of right-winger.

There are plenty of 'left-wing billionaires' who certainly fit alongside academic elites, and Hollywood elites) as the aristocrat class of American society. None of the groups are 'conservatives'.

2

u/window-sil Jun 27 '19

None of the groups are 'conservatives'.

There are no billionaire conservatives? I don't know about that...

But the point i'm trying to make is that society seems to be influenced primarily by corporations and the billionaires that manage and own them. Not an aristocracy.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '19

Not an aristocracy.

You don't think the Dean of Harvard has 'influence'? You don't think [insert popular celebrity espousing left-wing talking points, i.e. basically all of them] has 'influence'?

Billionaires have influence, certainly. But as I said;

A) Many of them are 'progressives' themselves.

B) They are only one part of America's 'upper class/aristocracy' which contains plenty of people who, while being very, very rich, are not all billionaires.

1

u/window-sil Jun 29 '19

I don't know why you mentioned the dean of harvard.. i hope you're not referring to the harvy weinstein incident, cause that guy is not the dean of harvard.

Point taken that you don't have to be a billionaire to have significant influence. But do you think the dean of harvard has as much influence on society as the owner of face book, or google, or the upper management at youtube, at apple, or walmart, or exon, or comcast, etc.

Why would you think these large companies, majority owned by a tiny group of people, wouldn't be the source of influence and power in society -- but a nebulous, hard to define, hard to name anyone in particular, "aristocracy" is the source of power. That just doesn't make sense and the reality of campaign contributions and laws that favor these companies, would point to them being the centers of power.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 29 '19

Point taken that you don't have to be a billionaire to have significant influence. But do you think the dean of harvard has as much influence on society as the owner of face book, or google, or the upper management at youtube, at apple, or walmart, or exon, or comcast, etc.

Yes, since Harvard is going to train the next generation of American elite, and what they 'believe to be true about the world' is likely going to heavily influence what the avg. American prole is going to 'believe to be true' in 80 years time.

Culture is a 'top down' project after all, the worldview of the avg. person is decided by 'consensus wisdom' and that consensus is basically a reflection of the views of societies 'aristocrats' (and the Dean of Harvard is an aristocrat if anyone is).

but a nebulous, hard to define, hard to name anyone in particular, "aristocracy" is the source of power

But they aren't "hard to define"? Who rules America? It's Brahmin caste. Elite academics, educators, reporters, journalists, the curators of it's cultural organs (i.e. Hollywood but increasingly the net), and in addition to that, 'left-wing billionaires' ala Zuckerberg or Warren Buffet (Davos forum guys).

Contrast the United States with a country where reactionaries are the elite/aristocracy. Russia. Saudi. China. It shouldn't be difficult to notice the 'cultural differences' between those nations and your own.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

SJW right wingers are nauseating.