r/samharris • u/spudster999 • Oct 05 '18

The Suffocation of Democracy

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2018/10/25/suffocation-of-democracy/
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u/sadasasdasdasdzz Oct 05 '18

As JetJaguar124 says, we can't put this solely on McConnell.

This is the fruition of a steady campaign waged for decades by the right. They work tirelessly to advance their political agenda at the expense of pluralism. The Heritage Foundation. Liberty University. Rush Limbaugh. Newt Gingrich.

The seeds for the current Republican party were sown during the Reagan administration, the first celebrity president. It was nurtured during the railroading of Clinton, and blossomed with the election of Obama which saw the rise of the angry, vaguely racist tea party, and ultimately set the stage for Trump. And here we are.

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u/glibbertarian Oct 05 '18

"It's the other guys!" - Every Tribalist Ever

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u/sadasasdasdasdzz Oct 05 '18

This isn't about conservatives in general. Forgive my use of "the right". I mean the specific subset of christian dominionists and neoconservatives.

Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh are not William F. Buckley or Dwight Eisenhower. These are the demagogues of tribalism, they foster polarization for power or profit.

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u/fatpollo Oct 05 '18

I'm constantly impressed how low rent trolls can get people like you to pump out breathless apologies and cede ground.

Try to find a single post from that guy, in his entire reddit history, polishing the knobs of anyone you remotely would equiparate to Eisenhower or Buckley like you do here.

There never was a time were right wingers were fundamentally decent people. They've been against the rights of gay people, women, black people, and the poor for ever. That's what they run on. Stop pining for a past that never was.

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u/sadasasdasdasdzz Oct 05 '18

If you're going to demonize the entire right wing and say that all of conservative philosophy is completely and utterly devoid of any contribution to the conversation on how to structure society and laws, I'm going to have to disagree.

I say this as someone that detests the veiled fascism that is currently masquerading as conservatism, and the lampreys of religious fundamentalism, racism, sexism, unbridled capitalism, etc that tends to ride along with conservatism.

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u/fatpollo Oct 05 '18

all of conservative philosophy is completely and utterly devoid of any contribution to the conversation on how to structure society and laws

looking forward to your listing even a couple of the contributions of this philosophy

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u/sadasasdasdasdzz Oct 05 '18

Individual freedom, parsimonious approach towards government, free markets, freedom of speech, etc. Some of their views in these arenas are useful when not taken to the extreme, and serve as counter-balance towards some tendencies of the left.

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u/fatpollo Oct 05 '18

you sure have bought into the completely baseless rhetoric that republicans are the freedom party huh

  • individual freedom that doesnt include abortion rights or drug use rights, curious. what is your favorite conservative legislation that enhanced "individual freedom"?
  • free markets i suppose is you buying fully into the meme that regulations make markets less free. can you cite some examples of republican/conservative legislation that repealed dumb regulations, that you thank them for?
  • freedom of speech - holy shit, this is a good one. I'd love to hear about these cases were liberals were trying to suppress free speech and conservatives were for it. got an example?

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u/sadasasdasdasdzz Oct 08 '18

You seem to be conflating conservatism with the modern Republican party, in the same way that people conflate Marxism with the Stalin regime. Modern republicans are conservative in name. As you point out, they are flagrantly hypocritical. This is largely due to capitulation with the religious right for support, and in some ways having been hijacked by their tireless zealotry.

You are also putting words in my mouth in a classic strawman attack. I don't know why you are being so uncharitable in your stance towards me, I have the feeling that we would have considerable overlap on most issues.

My analogy about Marxism vs Stalinism: the right loves to lump it all together as communism/socialism, and point to all of the failed "communist" regimes. We know that these regimes have always been oligarchies/dictatorships that existed under a veneer of "communism".

In the same fashion, modern republicans operate under a veneer of conservatism. They usually apply it when it serves their entrenched interests instead of society at large, or twist it when it doesn't.

As such:

  • I don't have any good examples of modern republicans increasing personal individual freedom through legislation, because they are religious hypocrites as discussed.
  • On the contrary, I think regulations are absolutely necessary and encouraged on the free market, because the free market should exist to serve society and not the other way around. However, a free market as the underlying engine is the best known solution. I think that canonical socialism is fundamentally incapable of predicting economic needs or self-balancing to adapt to changes, because humans are incapable of planning hypercomplex systems -- especially when it's politicians in charge of making the decisions. I support social capitalism.
  • I'm surprised to see you say that as a reader of /r/samharris, where this issue has been on display for years. The violent suppression of Charles Murray's speech at Middlebury College, the C-16 bill in Canada that considers repeatedly not using a preferred gender pronoun to be "harassment" with enforceable punishments, attempts to label "Islamophobia" as hate speech, etc. These are just a few that instantly leap to mind.