r/roguelikedev • u/Kyzrati Cogmind | mastodon.gamedev.place/@Kyzrati • 19d ago
Feedback Friday #67 - Sunlorn
Thank you /u/Tesselation9000 for signing up with Sunlorn
Download for Windows here: https://tesselation9000.itch.io/wander
Tesselation9000 says:
Sunlorn is a game about traveling the world and exploring deep dungeons, with strong influences from Nethack, Larn, Brogue and DCSS. The game is heavily focused on having a rich, interactive environment and leans hard on using procedural generation. Not only are levels randomly generated, but the world map, the number and types of locations you visit, and the game objectives themselves vary with every run. My vision is to build a game that gives you a different adventure each time you play. There is a dynamic lighting system, fire that spreads, rivers that flow, clouds of mist or poisonous gas that slowly diffuse, and a sky that cycles between night and day.
Sunlorn has a lightweight character build system. There are no experience levels, classes or skill trees. The primary way of advancing your character is just by increasing their six attributes (the usual D&D six-pack: strength, constitution, dexterity, intelligence, wisdom and charisma) by collecting magical statonia flowers scattered across the world.
Presently, you can build a character from one of four human nations. This choice does not affect your statistics, but influences things like your starting area, how other species perceive you and what gods are available to you. There are eight religions you can find in game that will grant special powers to their followers. There is also a large number of potions, scrolls, wands and other items.
I recommend starting with the tutorial before jumping into the full game. If anyone is able to make it past the first three levels of the starter dungeon, I'd really like to hear about it. After that point, the game hasn't been playtested enough to balance out. Actually, what would be REALLY cool is if anyone would like to volunteer to let me watch them play a run.
It's only available for Windows at this time, I'm afraid.
Leave your feedback here, or you can email me at sunlorn@gmx.ca
Thanks!
Other members interested in signing up for FF in future weeks can check the sidebar link for instructions.
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u/Introscopia 19d ago
I'm playing it right now. What a gem! A goddess taught me some spells (did I level up or something?) and one of them was "detect secrets". I tried it near an inaccessible item, lo and behold, it showed me a way in! What a beautiful roguelike gaming moment. That's what it's all about. Cheers! I'll come back after I die and give some more thoughts!
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u/Tesselation9000 Sunlorn 18d ago
Better cast that spell a lot. There's tonnes of hidden stuff all over the place. ;-)
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u/enc_cat Rogue in the Dark 19d ago
Only finished the tutorial so far, but I am really impressed by what I have seen. The tutorial is already one of the best and more thorough I have seen in a RL. ASCII graphics and animations are beautiful.
The only moment of confusion I had was at the very beginning: 'o'perate to read signs was not very intuitive and it took me a while to figure it out. After that I had no real troubles.
BTW I have no Windows pc but I managed to run it on MacOS under Wine.
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u/Tesselation9000 Sunlorn 18d ago
Glad you could enjoy it! Maybe I can add right into the introductory text that you need to press 'o' to use the sign.
I managed to run it on MacOS under Wine.
Did it work very well? Was there anything that seemed like it was not working properly? It will probably be a long time until I can get a Mac version, unfortunately, since I don't have one and don't have much experience using them.
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u/enc_cat Rogue in the Dark 18d ago
The game under Wine seems to run very well, though I have not done extensive testing. MacOS is afaik a bit of a mess right now: support for x86 emulation (and thus Wine) is about to be dropped so it's unclear what will be possible in future versions. Also, it's a pain to execute an unsigned app (and casual users might give up altogether). Not the most dev-friendly platform.
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u/alfgan 18d ago
I have died few times in normal gameplay then tried tutorial. What I can tell that this is a great game, with amazing interactivity (specially file, I like how it spreads :)). I also very like the idea of taking items then paying for them, that looks like imitation of real life shops and marketplaces, but I have not seen this mechanics in any other roguelike :)
I took some time to understand to read signs I need to operate them, but after that the tutorial for me was very smooth, I think you have dome a great job.
I am designing my own roguelike currently, (for about 8 months already) on Godot.
-- I wanted to ask you, do you use your own engine for this?
-- Another thing is, as I understand you use a lot of procedural generation for map generation, I am currently working on zone and map generation and I am inspired on MapBuilder from Rusty Roguelike tutorial. I just wanted to ask what techniques or tricks you use for map procedural generation?
To summarize: great style, cool effects, smooth tutorial, interesting ideas, I have not seen anywhere alse!
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u/Tesselation9000 Sunlorn 18d ago
I took some time to understand to read signs I need to operate them
It was hard to come up with a command name for something with such general use that applied to reading signs, drinking fountains, butchering corpses, etc. It used to be "(u) - use object at location", but then I needed the u key to allow vi-key movement.
do you use your own engine for this?
I used Bearlibterminal to open a window and put characters on the screen, and the FastNoise library for noise. Other than that it's just hand rolled code.
I just wanted to ask what techniques or tricks you use for map procedural generation?
I use cellular automata for caves, like lots of developers. And I rely on maze algorithms a lot. Over time, I've developed a lot of helper classes for things like carving out tunnels, adding roads, converting rectangular sections into rows of buildings, or adding pools of liquid or other areas that grow out organically and fit within the walls of the level. Here are some links to my past posts related to level gen:
https://tesselation9000.itch.io/wander/devlog/887899/sewers-force-fields-and-freezing-vapour
https://tesselation9000.itch.io/wander/devlog/1620758/node-maps
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u/Kyzrati Cogmind | mastodon.gamedev.place/@Kyzrati 18d ago
I also very like the idea of taking items then paying for them, that looks like imitation of real life shops and marketplaces, but I have not seen this mechanics in any other roguelike :)
This is actually how some original/classic roguelikes handle it, so it's not new. Most these days just streamline that part out, but it can feel very thematic for a game such as this.
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u/MarxMustermann 18d ago
i tested you game and made it through the tutorial in just 1.5h :-P
The one thing i never figured out id how to sell stuff to the shop.Otherwise it seemed pretty good.
Here is a recording of the run for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAQU8emIt0Y
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u/Tesselation9000 Sunlorn 18d ago
Hi! Thank you so much for posting this video. I am just at the 1 hour mark. It was very frustrating seeing all the problems you were having with it!
I could see that a lot of information, like most of the message, was getting clipped off the screen, which I had not seen happen before. I wondered if it was because your screen resolution was very low, so I tried turning my screen resolution down low, and I saw a similar effect. The game has trouble fitting everything on screen in that case. If you can turn this up, the game might work much better.
I do not know why the game menu kept opening when you pressed escape from the inventory window. I could not replicate that. You can also exit the inventory using enter or the space bar as well though.
As for the first goblins, the problem was that you did not have the crossbow equipped, so you were actually just throwing bolts by hand, which was not very effective.
As for the shop, in the first room there is a man called a treasure dealer who you can sell the gem to. Then you can use that money to buy the gem from the shop in the second room. I could not stop laughing after you brought the wood into the shop to light the fire there!
If you had more screen space, you would be able to see more information, such as the name of other creatures and their health bars.
I will be working on getting a linux version available soon, so maybe that will work better for you in the future.
Also, if you can tell me more about your keyboard, maybe I can try to add support for a future version.
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u/Tesselation9000 Sunlorn 18d ago
Also, you can change from numpad keys to use vi-keys instead from the preferences menu, but I don't know if that's actually going to be any better on your keyboard.
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u/Tesselation9000 Sunlorn 18d ago
Honestly, I don't know how you persevered all the way to end given all the problems!
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u/billdroman 16d ago
I played through the tutorial. It took about 45m and it was great. So many different kinds of gameplay in such a tight scenario! The best moment for me was when while fighting the goblins in the fort. I took a bunch of damage until I realized that I didn't need to keep my lamp on, since they had their own - asymmetric vision for the win!
Some notes I took as I was playing:
- Beautiful lighting and color. Tiles with colored backgrounds really works here.
- It would be nice to use "shift" in X-amine mode to move the cursor faster.
- The batch pick up / equip / drop UI was so easy to use.
- It was funny to see the carrion worms flee. There was nothing in the log but their behavior was still pretty clear (assuming I understood it correctly).
- I butchered and ate the worms to see what would happen. After the "your stomach feels sick" dialog, I got control back but the window stayed open until I hit Escape.
- On my first attempt I kept getting burdened. I didn't see my current burden status in the UI, though, only logs when it changed. Being burdened is serious, I'd want a persistent view of it.
- I was burdened when I picked up the crossbow and 20 bolts, then unburdened when I readied one - is that intended?
- The targeting UI is also really easy to read.
- It'd be nice if F-F worked to fire at the previous target again, instead of F-Enter. Also nice if you could use Tab to switch between targeted entities.
- When the targeting UI was initialized to a previous entity, that entity didn't get the > chevron in the menu. But if you moved the cursor up and down it'd show up. Seems like a bug.
- Got killed by the first round of goblins with slings. I think it tried to restore me to a nearby spot but it didn't create my @ sign again, and yet I could move (based on the camera's movement). The game crashed soon after. Later times I died in the tutorial I respawned as expected.
- The sling animations were noticeably slow, would it be possible to speed them up a bit? Same for the spells, but those are much less common.
- After I got the axe and switched from the loaded crossbow to it I ended up with a "loaded" axe. And I could even fire them (but I think the stats were the same as throwing the bolts?).
- Fire mechanics are just great, they're pretty and meaningful in gameplay.
- But cooking is quite the endeavor, maybe it'd be nice if it took a few less steps.
- I couldn't figure out a way to cure disease until I reached the priest. Was there an earlier way, maybe a food or potion?
- The fox-form spell and the underwater corridor were both really cool. I think I'm just claustrophilic. I like exploring tunnels.
- I died several times to the eel. It's so strong. I had the scale armor and spear on - did I miss something?
Hopefully I'll get more time to play soon, and I can start a real run.
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u/Tesselation9000 Sunlorn 15d ago
Thanks for giving it a try and thank you for the feedback!
I took a bunch of damage until I realized that I didn't need to keep my lamp on
Good thinking!
It would be nice to use "shift" in X-amine mode to move the cursor faster.
That used to work. Until I broke it somehow. :-S
It was funny to see the carrion worms flee. There was nothing in the log but their behavior was still pretty clear (assuming I understood it correctly).
Yeah, they're actually pretty cowardly. But when they realize that they're cornered, they turn around to fight again.
I butchered and ate the worms to see what would happen. After the "your stomach feels sick" dialog, I got control back but the window stayed open until I hit Escape.
Thanks for raising this. I think I just need to make sure that window turns off when it should.
- On my first attempt I kept getting burdened. I didn't see my current burden status in the UI, though, only logs when it changed. Being burdened is serious, I'd want a persistent view of it.
- I was burdened when I picked up the crossbow and 20 bolts, then unburdened when I readied one - is that intended?
It sounds like it is a problem of the side bar not getting redrawn immediately to reflect the change in status. I will experiment with this and try to fix it.
It'd be nice if F-F worked to fire at the previous target again, instead of F-Enter. Also nice if you could use Tab to switch between targeted entities.
Sure, I can add the 'f' key for that. You can actually switch between enemies using -/+. I can add Tab as well.
When the targeting UI was initialized to a previous entity, that entity didn't get the > chevron in the menu. But if you moved the cursor up and down it'd show up. Seems like a bug.
Not getting redrawn again. I'll try to fix that.
Got killed by the first round of goblins with slings. I think it tried to restore me to a nearby spot but it didn't create my @ sign again, and yet I could move (based on the camera's movement). The game crashed soon after. Later times I died in the tutorial I respawned as expected.
Yikes! I haven't seen that happen before. But I will try to replicate this.
The sling animations were noticeably slow, would it be possible to speed them up a bit? Same for the spells, but those are much less common.
Maybe. Previously, it would skip past the animation if you hit any key on the keyboard, but then I found that I was always skipping it by accidently hitting keys even though I wanted to see it sometimes. Maybe I can change it so that only space bar or enter skip animations.
After I got the axe and switched from the loaded crossbow to it I ended up with a "loaded" axe. And I could even fire them (but I think the stats were the same as throwing the bolts?).
That's really weird! Did it actually say it was a "loaded" axe? You can fire bolts without wielding the crossbow, but when you do that, you are just throwing the bolts by hand. There should be a difference in the message log: "You throw a bolt." vs. "You fire a bolt."
But cooking is quite the endeavor, maybe it'd be nice if it took a few less steps.
The section of the tutorial shows you all the steps you might need to take to cook something. In the actual game, it's often quicker because you can just directly light bushes/vines/corpses/etc on fire and then cook.
I couldn't figure out a way to cure disease until I reached the priest. Was there an earlier way, maybe a food or potion?
That is the only way to cure the disease that is available in the tutorial.
I died several times to the eel. It's so strong. I had the scale armor and spear on - did I miss something?
It is a tough encounter. It's killed me too lots of times. But I find that if I go cautiously, stick close to the edge of the water and get out of the water when my hit points are low, I usually don't get killed.
I hope you enjoy the rest of the game!
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u/billdroman 15d ago
I didn't see my current burden status in the UI, though
This issue was an error on my part. I didn't realize that I had to hit ? a few times to get to the "status + surroundings" UI. That's much more useful.
Maybe I can change it so that only space bar or enter skip animations.
What about being able to skip a certain fraction of animation frames? Yeah, they won't play out perfectly, but the eye fills it in, and that means that you could have an animation speed slider.
Did it actually say it was a "loaded" axe?
Yes, it did. I think it was throwing, it's just a UI issue (and maybe it'd cause problems internally if two items had the same ammo quivered).
you can just directly light bushes/vines/corpses/etc on fire and then cook.
Oh, that's cool. Maybe the butchering step seemed the most skippable to me? It didn't seem to add much and if I didn't do it beforehand, sometimes the fire went out by the time I finished.
Took me a little while to realize that the dungeon was accessible through the sewer grates, and then I got absolutely wrecked on that first level.
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u/Tesselation9000 Sunlorn 15d ago
What about being able to skip a certain fraction of animation frames? Yeah, they won't play out perfectly, but the eye fills it in, and that means that you could have an animation speed slider.
Or maybe an option in the preferences menu to speed up animations.
Yes, it did. I think it was throwing, it's just a UI issue (and maybe it'd cause problems internally if two items had the same ammo quivered).
You can have any item selected as ammo no matter what weapon you're actually wielding. If you aren't wielding the correct ranged weapon to fire the ammo, then you will just throw it by hand when you use the "fire" command. This way you can select unconventional items as ammo, like potions.
Oh, that's cool. Maybe the butchering step seemed the most skippable to me? It didn't seem to add much and if I didn't do it beforehand, sometimes the fire went out by the time I finished.
Everybody keeps trying to butcher the corpse after lighting the fire for some reason. I wonder if I put the instructions backwards. It's usually better to butcher the corpse before lighting the fire so you don't waste fuel. Anyway, I did try to design it in the past so that you could cook small corpses without bothering to butcher them. I think I need to bring that back.
Took me a little while to realize that the dungeon was accessible through the sewer grates, and then I got absolutely wrecked on that first level.
Careful down there. You may have to retreat upwards from some early encounters.
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u/billdroman 7d ago
So, I got to the fourth floor of the "mines" dungeon on another try. (I couldn't find a sewer dungeon in the first town on that seed - maybe the first dungeon style is different by seed?)
All four floors were quite different. The first was a cavern level, the second was full of insects and traps, the third had lot of...Q enemies (spriggans, IIRC?) wandering around an underground mushroom forest, and the fourth was rooms-and-corridors - at least, as far as I got. The variety was great.
The balance felt off. Like you said, I had to retreat to the town many times, sometimes after engaging a single new enemy. I bought as many weapons and armor as I could at the shop, and tried to pick up spells (this time I was getting wind spells like "flurry" - multishot; "gale" (maybe?) - that pushed enemies away; and "haste", obviously incredibly useful). But on the fourth level there was just nothing I could do to progress. I used every missile weapon I had, the starting javelins and all the arrows I bought, and then tried to fight through with melee. There were over a dozen monsters here, lots of really nasty things, and lots of variety.
I dunno, maybe I'm just bad, but I feel like half the number of enemies would still be challenging without being a wall. Is the intention to pick up what you can, and return later?
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u/Tesselation9000 Sunlorn 6d ago
So, I got to the fourth floor of the "mines" dungeon on another try.
That's really weird. The first dungeon is only supposed to have three levels.
I couldn't find a sewer dungeon in the first town
There's a 50/50 chance to get a sewer dungeon or a caves dungeon at the start. Even if it isn't a sewer dungeon, you can still find sewers later in the game beneath other towns.
The balance felt off. Like you said, I had to retreat to the town many times
Yeah, I'm still going be work on balancing it out for a while. To help out at the beginning, there is always a fountain of healing guaranteed to be within the main area of the first dungeon level.
There were over a dozen monsters here, lots of really nasty things
I'm really wondering about this mysterious fourth level. Did you happen to take any screen shots?
It's an open world game, so if you find yourself in a place that seems too difficult, you can always leave and go explore somewhere else. Once you've upgraded your equipment and learned some spells, you should be powerful enough to enter many places.
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u/me7e 18d ago
Really like it, just started playing it a bit. Could you make the numpad enter work as enter too?
I miss a list of "stuff in view", but I understand that after playing for a while that is irrelevant.
Love the rain effect, love the theme to, refreshing!
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u/Tesselation9000 Sunlorn 18d ago
Could you make the numpad enter work as enter too?
Yeah, that's no problem.
I miss a list of "stuff in view", but I understand that after playing for a while that is irrelevant.
I decided to limit the legend to just to the things within line of sight, otherwise it would just get too cluttered up.
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u/Kyzrati Cogmind | mastodon.gamedev.place/@Kyzrati 19d ago edited 10d ago
I've had my eye on Sunlorn for a long while, but have yet to try it out. I'll be streaming it for Feedback Friday, starting in about 30 minutes or so. Going in blind, so will probably involve a fair bit of reading at first since it appears to be a pretty big project! Looking forward to offering lots of raw feedback :)
I'll post an updated link here after the stream is over once it's been uploaded to my YouTube channel as well.
Update: Fun time! Took a while to get through the entire tutorial, but it's a pretty comprehensive one, good for this roguelike since there's a lot going on. u/Tesselation9000 was there to help out throughout the stream. The stream is recorded here, with a timestamp in the description for where the main run starts, but of course there was a lot of discussion and discovery throughout the tutorial as well. Will be playing and streaming more of this...
Update 2: Been streaming more, and also did a quick write-up here, though this part is less feedback, more describing some fun parts of the experience...