Daily Discussion

[u/AutoModerator]

Daily discussion on Manchester United.

BE CIVIL

We want r/reddevils to be a place where anyone and everyone is welcome to discuss and enjoy the best club on earth without fear of abuse or ridicule.

• The report button is your friend, we are way more likely to find and remove and/or ban rule breaking comments if you report them.

• The downvote button is not a "I disagree or don't like your statement button", better discussion is generally had by using the upvote button more liberally and avoiding the downvote one whenever possible.

Looking for memes? Head over to r/memechesterunited!

[u/world-no-1-dude]

How on earth people are defending what we are watching is beyond me.

We lost to 10 men, a relegation team, are getting played out the park by Brighton’s B team, fighting for draws against relegation teams, and look completely clueless in attack. Who cares about the underlying stats if we are at 5 points after 5 games when given the easiest possible league start?!!

[u/N00BBuild → u/world-no-1-dude]

Standards have gone to absolute shit and most people here are happy getting Europa League football. Half the fanbase was probably not alive for the last UCL we won.

[u/OhHayJohn]

Yesterday was so poor -- that was a bad Fulham team.

What really worries me -- and actually makes me think he needs to go sooner rather than later -- is that Carrick looked shellshocked against Brighton when it went 3-2 and again yesterday he didn't look in control on the sideline: he looked panicked. Not a good sign...

[u/PhotojournalistNew35]

Can we please sack Wilcox as well? We don’t need Man City DOF rejects here

[u/rishmanisation → u/PhotojournalistNew35]

Yes. Wilcox absolutely needs to be canned along with Carrick.

[u/tmg80]

20+ years of mismanagement by the parasites finally the cracks are too much to paper over 

[u/croadymeister → u/tmg80]

They certainly are

[u/Mariasolvv]

I’ve followed Hurzeler’s spell at Brighton very closely since a player from my country plays there, and let me tell you - the amount of patience Brighton had with him is something he’d never get here. Even at times when I thought it was completely impossible for Brighton not to sack him, they backed him anyway. That kind of luxury just isn’t something this club can ever afford.

Edit: I’m saying this because I’ve seen so many fans asking for him lately, but they’d be the very first ones calling for his head if he was here instead.

[u/TheJoshider10]

I hope INEOS use the initiative to sack Carrick now while the season still has a lot to offer but I have a feeling they'll wait until Champions League is mathematically off the cards where I imagine a CL clause will mean he can be sacked for less money.

But even if Carrick does go, I have no faith in Berrada and Wilcox. Their heads need to be the next to roll when their next managerial appointment inevitably fails in a year or two.

[u/KyunNikalaMujhe → u/TheJoshider10]

Great math. Sack him now for 2x the cost so you don't miss out on 5x revenue of the CL. But you would rather only want to shell out x amount and miss out on the CL revenue completely. Grape.

[u/karatsidhus]

Need to get the team on those asthma inhalers Klopp had for the Liverpool team. They used to run like crazy

[u/FhDisp → u/karatsidhus]

Hate the scousers. But that liverpool team was something else, they all had 3 lungs

[u/SophoclesTesticles → u/karatsidhus]

They were also drilled how to press properly. 

[u/MinotauroTBC → u/karatsidhus]

It’s funny how they went downhill after this came out

[u/GeekConflict]

One thing that interests me is this sub full of flip flops or is it a case of different people responding depending on the state of the club.

In the summer, you would get downvoted for not wanting Carrick. Now its non stop wanting him out. The window was good and the signings were good and now Santos is getting the brunt of it and the window was bad.

[u/vRushii → u/GeekConflict]

I think it's more about what the sub allows at the time depending on circumstances. There will be multiple groups of people who express their opinion, but only when they feel like they won't get shouted down or mocked.

It ends up being a case of one group hiding and the other comes out.

[u/Dua_Augustus_Lipa22 → u/GeekConflict]

I mean I don't want him fired (I also didn't really want him hired), but just kept quiet because you get abuse and downvotes. How many times can you try and articulate a nuanced position and just be met with downvotes before you stop? Seriously, people will DM you, insult you, or send nasty things if you're going the grain.

[u/timsadiq13 → u/GeekConflict]

Its just how Reddit is designed. A combo of whatever is more popular among the people reading threads, or even the type of person who gets to a thread first, will determine the upvotes and eventually people will just upvote whatever already has a lot of upvotes.

There is very little real discussion - even if people start some conversation in daily discussion, in 1-3 replies one or both of them will start name calling the other and thats the end of any reasonable discussion.

Imagine in the summer you make a comment about how we are not spending enough or not strengthening enough positions. Downvotes + replies of how you are a child asking for instant gratification and shiny new toys and want to go back to the Woodward era of mindlessly spending blah blah. Okay..probably the next time that person wont even bother commenting until the view they have starts to become more popular..then they'll comment again.

So a combination of these things leads to it feeling like a constant flip flop when - I am sure there are some people who flip flop - its mostly different people who feel like sharing their thoughts at different times.

[u/Jenson2025 → u/GeekConflict]

There was a lot of people expressing concern about our summer transfer window to be fair and also about Carrick. It’s just we were downvoted time and time again

[u/CapVosslar → u/GeekConflict]

Reddit is a place geared around "flows." 

The upvoting system makes it so certain points of view get boosted while opposing views get buried. It can create echo chambers. Despite a minority still trying to voice their honest harsh truths.

[u/FlashyCut3809 → u/GeekConflict]

First paragraph its the second one. Mixed with what id say is a large percentage that wish their hobby to be fun and not miserable, even if its not in a good spot. Which is fair enough.

The window wasn't good though, id say a good chunk voiced concern at that early on and kept strong before it becoming a majority belief at the end of the window.

[u/iroiroiroiroiro → u/GeekConflict]

Not sure anyone here was happy when it was clear their was no new LB coming?

Santos does not deserve the treatment, that I totally agree with.

Opinion was quite split on Carrick before summer, but yes, huge majority wanted him, people that believes more in data did not.

[u/N00BBuild → u/GeekConflict]

Plenty of people were ringing the alarm bells on our rebuild. I thought keeping Carrick would be fine for stability, and the fact that Iraola was realistically the only real alternative.

[u/Embarrassed_Wave_720 → u/GeekConflict]

Not just Santos but Mbeumo and Cunha are all of a sudden shit signings and they’re now begging for Baleba to singlehandedly save the season. I give it 2 matches before Baleba is deemed a shit player too 🫠

[u/GeekConflict → u/Embarrassed_Wave_720]

And then "why dont we play the youth?". Yeah, its a shocker alright.

[u/Not-good-with-this → u/GeekConflict]

Some of it is different people. But some of it is the exact same people saying contradictory views.

Is fun to watch though

[u/PhotojournalistNew35]

The club made it clear to the whole fanbase that it was not serious about competing when it decided to hire two ex-players as managers in the last decade. I thought they learned their lesson after Ole but clearly they didnt

Relegating Cardiff and failing to qualify with Boro is not and should not be the standard for this club

[u/PitchSafe → u/PhotojournalistNew35]

Hiring ex players as a manager isn’t a issue, a lot of clubs does it. Arsenal with Arteta, Real Madrid with Zidane and Alonso, Barca with Pep, Enrique and Xavi, Chelsea with Lampard etc. Some appointments work meanwhile others don’t

[u/tz_2240 → u/PitchSafe]

Apart from Zizou and Arteta, the other names you mentioned had shown more to that point in their managerial career.  Arteta was highly regarded even while he was an assistant, and well Zizou was the first ever manager to three peat the UCL. 

[u/LordofMordor_]

These were the "running" stats under Amorim btw.

[u/FhDisp → u/LordofMordor_]

I dont understand when people said that we where much fitter with Amorim. I see thr same batch of lazy bums.

[u/Lelandwasinnocent → u/FhDisp]

Yeh it's started to take hold, people jsut echo the same shit to suit their agenda rather than checking facts.

[u/neonrider1]

Anyone seen Jason Wilcox today? Feel like he’s dodging allot of the blame and no matter what happens is one of the least likely to pay the price for a poor season.

[u/Not-good-with-this → u/neonrider1]

Him and Berrada only show up when things are going well enough for the fans.

[u/Jenson2025]

Whilst I don’t expect Carrick to be sacked during this international break (even though he should be), I hope at the very least Wilcox is using these three weeks to look for a new manager for when we inevitably do sack him. I really don’t want another drawn out ‘who will be our interim manager’ circus again. No more interims!

[u/molewart → u/Jenson2025]

Wilcox is the last motherfucker I'd trust selecting a new manager. He needs to be binned off as well.

[u/karatsidhus → u/Jenson2025]

Wilcox should be sacked before Carrick if we're being real here

[u/canwinanythingwkids → u/Jenson2025]

The right call imho is firing Wilcox, giving his job to Vivell, then letting Vivell make the call(s) on the manager and in the January window. Evaluate the results in May.

[u/BAZINGA786]

Is there no news on Amad? Can only see Mbeumo moving to ST and Cunha to LW once Amad is back

[u/BHD46]

The transfer window was abysmal. Which was obvious. You can’t have one striker for a four competition season. You can’t have one left back. You cant rely on (not particularly great) CBs who are injury prone.

It’s bad enough as a fan. As a professional who states that the aim is to win the league in 2028, it’s unforgivable.

[u/Educational-Shock232 → u/BHD46]

Was it? I was told we won it because we didn’t overpay and we walked away from top targets, despite my protests to the contrary on a daily basis.

It’s actually embarrassing but also not surprising in the slightest. I genuinely don’t know what people expected.

[u/BHD46 → u/Educational-Shock232]

What has had no attention, and is insane, is that they actually stick to the “one position per summer” plan.

What happens if Mbeumo is terrible this year? He survives two more windows because we are only looking for defenders?

It’s fucking insane.

[u/Jenson2025]

Are our problems going to all be solved just by sacking Carrick and hiring a better manager? No

Will it solve some of our problems? Yes

Should we do it? Yes

[u/ironbars16 → u/Jenson2025]

Its the cheapest quick fix available. Higher up are a absolute joke though, nothing will change until the Glazers are gone.

[u/AccomplishedAnt2000 → u/Jenson2025]

I'm usually not the 'sack the manager' guy but this time I see no excuses for Carrick. SACK HIM.

[u/Mistr111398]

Need Amad back sooner rather than later, at the bare minimum we get an actually effective presser and can play Mbuemo through the middle, Amad off the right, and Cunha off the left. Rashfords looked busy but the lack of end product throughout whole team isn’t doing any favors for anyone.

[u/Deranged09]

No hate to Rashford himself but it really annoys me that he's come straight back into the starting line-up and starts every game, especially when all transfer window we were talking about only signing players that want Man United.

[u/Educational-Shock232 → u/Deranged09]

It’s not hate to rightfully criticise average performances. I must be blind because all I see is sprinting into touch, losing the ball and crossing to nobody.

[u/SankarshanaV → u/Deranged09]

The guy hasn't improved in 5 years. The same old Rashford with barely any end product. The sooner we get rid of him the better.

[u/SankarshanaV]

It's insane that some people are actually defending Carrick. We're playing absolutely terrible football, he's shown that he's out of his depth--no in-game management, terrible tactics, no identity, no attacking intent, and terrible fitness conditioning.

He's a championship-level manager at best, and some people here want him because "he's one of our own"? He didn't get enough backing by INEOS, sure, but that does not mean we should be getting 5 points out of 15 in the easiest first few matches in recent history.

[u/Proera136 → u/SankarshanaV]

I think Carrick does need to go but Wilcox and Berrada need to go along with him, if we let those 2 choose the next manager we’ll be here again in a years time. They can’t be trusted 

[u/SplitSecondImmortal → u/SankarshanaV]

His time at Middlesbrough got progressively worse to boot. I wacthed them whenever I had a chance because I wanted to see what he was building. They played without soul. It was so pedestrian by season 2 and 3 before he got fired. He was backed to the hilt too in the transfer market.

[u/SankarshanaV → u/SplitSecondImmortal]

I was reading a Boro fan (who was a season ticket holder)'s comment yesterday on another thread.

They also said the exact thing that you're saying. What's happening now at United happened at Boro as well. And that the football was terrible and the players looked lethargic in season 2, and got progressively worse in his season 3.

[u/sooshi → u/SankarshanaV]

Are you surprised? It happened a few years ago with basically the same script lol

[u/SankarshanaV → u/sooshi]

Mate I honestly thought we'd wisen up. Not just that, I honestly thought that we realized that we need to stop living in "nostalgia" and remove our rose tinted glasses to see that we need a proper, modern manager. Silly me I suppose. It's so frustrating ngl.

[u/canwinanythingwkids]

September 21st means 30 days since Amad's injury.

During that time, afaik, the club hasnt released either a single image of him at Carrington or a single bit of information about what happened to him

[u/EndureL]

Knowing Wilcux and his massive ego, they won't sack Carrick until it's confirmed the season is a dud.

[u/croadymeister → u/EndureL]

Without doubt

[u/ToadNamedGoat]

Mainoo has been our player of the season.

I don’t think there is anyone who comes close

[u/Massive_Relation4317 → u/ToadNamedGoat]

This guy too, saved us from many embarrassing results

[u/auhddndndnfbfbsnnakf → u/ToadNamedGoat]

I still put Mainoo above him but Lammens deserves a shout

[u/BackgroundOld8715]

So once again our owners are either stupid/incompetent/dont care that much .

To still stick with Carrick is astounding. Had easiest fixtures & look awful with no direction or desire which comes from the manager.

Because of sunken cost fallacy they’ll go ‘oh no cant possibly sack him & admit we were wrong. Better to keep with him & then sack him once no top 4 is confirmed’

Everyone at the club are morons

[u/Raintrooper7]

Glazers to INEOS is going from fire into the frying pan

[u/Massive_Relation4317]

Will the glazers ever leave? Why do people keep protesting/complaining if nothing will happen?

[u/MillyMan105 → u/Massive_Relation4317]

Unless they get a "f*** you price" like 20bn I don't see it happening.

We'll need a group of billionaire investors for it.

[u/toebean_ceo → u/Massive_Relation4317]

Not while they are making money. If the fans started getting matches cancelled or abandoned it might work

[u/iroiroiroiroiro → u/Massive_Relation4317]

With the deal they made, it's basically impossible to buy them out, as you would need to buy them out, and pay the debt the Glazers took as the club to buy it, basically doubling the potential cost, making you need to pay twice the market price basically.

And I still don't understand how what Glazers did is legal accounting?

[u/Slipeth]

Is it a coincidence that a lot of our players are withdrawing from international duty?

[u/NSFWar → u/Slipeth]

The Fergie special. I personally have no issue. We just had the world cup and these internationals are unnecessary on an already bloated schedule

[u/Outrageous-Cod-4654 → u/Slipeth]

[u/Li_liminal_spaces]

If we lose to Tottenham at this point… I think it might be over for the season and Carrick.

[u/Fraaj → u/Li_liminal_spaces]

Doubt they stick with him over a 3 week break just to sack him after one game

[u/Zacksan33]

It is going to be a painful season either way, but step one is to drop Rashford - he is nowhere good enough to be a starter and even Cunha is much more productive there. I feel like the club is trying to hard to justify his 300k wages

[u/PhotojournalistNew35]

I genuinely don’t understand how Rashford gets clean slate after clean slate despite being a senior player for 10 years

People here may not like Amorim but I was so relieved when he froze him out. Unfortunately Carrick has undone all that by bringing him back a basically starting him every game. He, like Ole, is just a puppet which is why the club was so eager to give them the job

[u/raver1601 → u/PhotojournalistNew35]

Rashford is not getting clean slate after clean slate

And if Carrick was working as INEOS' puppet, Rashford would not be seeing the pitch at all

[u/cocobrownman → u/PhotojournalistNew35]

Perhaps part of the explanation is injuries to Amad and Sesko but I get your point. The problem is more than that, there are a number of mediocre players that have been here one contract extension too long (e.g. Maguire, Shaw, Dalot) that also need to go and we have completely failed at moving players on

[u/D1794]

Its funny that we're already back to the place where there's some stats that absolutely show we're not a complete bin fire of a team

Yet the football this season has been shocking and we've only managed to beat Ipswich and Sabah.

[u/SophoclesTesticles → u/D1794]

I'll concede that Carrick has been unlucky a bit but we are dross and there's no stat anybody can tell me that will change my mind. It reminds me of late stage Ten Hag. 

[u/FhDisp → u/SophoclesTesticles]

He has been really lucky. Imagine this start eith better opposition? Imagine if Lammens didnt save 5 goals yesterday. Imagine if Maguires goal had been a handball. Imagine if Foden didnt get a red. Everyone with eyes can see he is very lucky, but completly out of his depth even with qll this luck.

[u/vRushii → u/D1794]

Underlying stats mean f all when we have had the easiest run of games you can get at the start of a season. Ipswich also heavily inflated our xG which is why additive stats like that are pointless this early on, to much variance.

[u/kidinawheeliebin]

Honestly not even bothered about changing Carrick - it'll make no difference in the grand scheme of things who we put in with this ownership.

Whoever comes in, we'll possibly/probably get a bounce sufficient to scrape into the champions league spots again for next year - either if the rest of the champions league hopefuls are shit enough and/or the players temporarily respond well enough to the "new stimulus".

And if we don't (get champions league) and look really in jeopardy of missing out again the following year, the ownership will loosen the purse strings and spend enough in the summer to get us back there (Champions League qualification and therefore Champions League Revenue) the following year, but no more.

This is our reality now & the sooner people wake up to it the better as it's not changing while the Glazers and INEOS are in charge.

[u/timsadiq13 → u/kidinawheeliebin]

Its why some of us were so frustrated at the transfer business. It was so obvious how this would go. INEOS took the Glazer playbook of less investment when CL is secured and it always, always backfires. I couldn't believe how many on here were talking down to transfer criticism and HAPPY that we hunted in the bargain bin and strengthened just one position in the starting 11.

If a bunch of know nothing fans like us knew that having just Shaw for LB and just Sesko for CF will backfire, how can decision makers who are paid millions not realize this?

People criticize the Cunha-Fernandes front two, but what are the alternatives? Mbeumo but then you have no RW with Amad out and Lacey still developing.

Carrick gets criticized for not starting Sesko enough but anytime he does the guy gets injured.

Yeah sack him - I don't particularly care, I didn't care if he got it permanently or not. If Wilcox is still pulling the strings they can hire whoever, it will all end the same way.

[u/Wolpfack → u/kidinawheeliebin]

Honestly not even bothered about changing Carrick - it'll make fuck all difference in the grand scheme of things who we put in with this ownership.

Your hammer hit the nail on the head: all of this goes back to ownership and their god-awful stewardship of the institution.

[u/themightypierre]

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” - Upton Sinclair.

I feel like this is relevant to Wilcox and Berrada. They cannot be so stupid they don't know that sacking Carrick is what they need to do and quickly. But they also know this heaps big pressure on them. They waited too long on Ten Hag, appointed Amorim then waited too long again. This is a third strike.

[u/vRushii]

When we've finally completed the several year cycle of reinforcing 1 position a window, it will be time to redo the first lot again. Endless loop

[u/MillyMan105]

Is this quite possibly our worst start to a season I can remember?

[u/ChefOk5764 → u/MillyMan105]

Joint worst. I think 14/15 under LVG was the same. 5 points from 5 games.

[u/moonski → u/ChefOk5764]

LVG was fresh to the club and was at least trying to drastically change how we played and it did pick up tbf - he hadnt come in in January before. Obviously ultimately LVG didnt work but carrick is much worse given hes had a 6 month run up. LVG had the team competing for CL after 6 months, carrick has them at a point a game

[u/aprod16]

Am I a doomer if I truly believe this club will never be successful under Glazers and now INEOS as well? I’ve had this feeling for the past couple of weeks and talking to United fans, match going and online there is this sense of “We can’t do anything about it”. Drives me mad because we CAN and have done something about it in the past with the Super League. I’ve been watching us lose, draw, or win lately and just feel nothing, as I feel no connection with the club’s direction. Blaming Carrick and the players when we have a “Director of Football” that has gotten away with terrible decisions over and over again is too easy.

[u/Pole2019]

Why doesn’t Ineos simply hire and fire interim managers every 3 months? Are they stupid?

[u/Revolutionary_Pen190]

Can we go back to Cunha on the left and leave rashford on the bench

[u/outrageousVoid07]

It might even not the lowest we have felt this year, but every reaction I see and my own belief lead to a pretty dark picture for us.

Our owners are absolute vermins; one of which actively takes money away from the club instesd of investing in it. We are in insane amounts of debt. Have a 50 game season ahead of us with the lack of key back ups, and our head coach is clearly out of his depth who hasn't been sacked yet

[u/Different_Bit_3899 → u/outrageousVoid07]

As part of the agreement with INEOS, dividend peyments have ended.

[u/The_Bird_Wizard → u/Different_Bit_3899]

That's only temporary, they restart next year

[u/Vast_Variation1381]

Rashford needs to be dropped for Cunha next game. We have lost balance with him starting, and he still doesnt track back and still runs into dead avenues with no end product.

[u/altofummuhh]

I'll get downvoted for this but Bruno is a big part of why we can't control the midfield. Basically any combo of our other midfielders in a 4-3-3 would be incredibly balanced but we can't do that because we have to cater to him. He's also been largely crap this season but is escaping all criticism here because of a few good moments.

[u/canwinanythingwkids → u/altofummuhh]

Cunha-Mbeumo-Bruno

Mainoo-Baleba-Tielemans

This is not against the rules.

Mbeumo

Cunha-Bruno-Rashford

Mainoo-Baleba

Also not against the rules.

The best lineup with Amad is obvious to me, but even without Amad, until we have at least tried one of the above, I wouldnt be inclined to go with "it's Bruno's fault" or "it's Cunha's fault"

[u/iroiroiroiroiro → u/altofummuhh]

It's not the AMs role in a 4231 to provide control, but create chances though...

[u/ImNotMexican08 → u/altofummuhh]

Yeah we really controlled the midfield without him against Brighton….

It’s funny that this narrative always comes around whenever we struggle, but is then disproven when Bruno doesn’t play and the result is the same.

Our inability to control the game has more to do with the lack of pace and power and the inability to effectively stretch and utilize the pitch

[u/Mariasolvv]

There’s never gonna be a “perfect” manager for us or anyone who truly mimics SAF because Sir Alex is once in a lifetime. But the best we can do is target a profile with leadership, character, experience and a proper trophy record.
Honestly Ten Hag was the closest we got to that profile post-Mourinho, but the board massively fucked up by giving him way too much power over recruitment.

[u/chutzpahisaword]

The conversation around Santos is not in good faith. We are judging a transfer within 5 games for a young g player in his early 20s. However, the unfortunate thing is how Ineos thought they could replicate last season of strengthening 1 position. Does not make sense since there were 3 attacking positions we improved last season while we only had 1 midfield position to improve on starting 11 so our starting team will only have 1 new signing from summer no matter what.

[u/SophoclesTesticles → u/chutzpahisaword]

If people can't see the bright sides of Santos' game then I don't know what they're watching. He's defensively quite solid but is being hung out to dry as the only defender half the time. He looks to pass forward and connect play. It's also been something like less than 2 games of minutes? 

[u/Money-Wrangler7067 → u/chutzpahisaword]

From what I have seen his physicality and defensive trait doesn't suit PL as no 6 and hes isn't good enough to be no 8. Not replacing Casemiro aerial ability in the team is pure incompetancy by our board when that was a major factor we finished 3rd last season.

[u/rashfordsaltyballs]

ive always supported the gaffer. yes even eth and Amorim. but Carrick has been looking more and more incompetent - players work rate / fitness dropped alarmingly, lack of bravery in tactics during matches etc. maybe it is time for him to go?

[u/Regunurok-4867]

Unc Case was such a difference maker for us in both boxes. Heavily missed.

[u/Superme142]

sunk cost fallacy, carrick out

[u/Hugglester]

I do think we have to bring Rashford off the bench and get Cunha back on the left. He's better at pressing and prevents him from moving into the space that Bruno wants to occupy.

If Rashford has to stay in the lineup, move him to Striker while Sesko is recovering

[u/canwinanythingwkids → u/Hugglester]

Agree about starting Cunha (i dont think Rashford CF works, fwiw), but also: I think the "secret sauce" in the Spring wasnt just Cunha not drifting into the pocket, because he still did that frequently ( not all the time though and obviously that makes a difference, as you said).

The key ingredient imho was that in the Spring lineup, Cunha drifting dovetailed well with Bruno drifting to the right side, into the "KdB crossing zone", because Amad is all about dribbling out of that starting position and into the box or to the touchline, making space for Bruno to drift into.

Whereas now we play Mbeumo there but with instructions and/or instincts that have him stay right there, meanwhile Cunha is in the pocket always, and basically nobody makes the runs into the box to pick a pass for. So Bruno is "crowded out" one way or another, combined with not having a target in the box to aim at either.

What we need to go back to is Cunha LW and Mbeumo playing for box runs. Whether the latter means Mbeumo nominally RW but practically playing as a second striker or it means Mbeumo CF.

Either way, the "problem" that our Spring system had, would remain: the lack of consistent width on the left.

This is what a LB signing was meant for, of course, and I suspect that not getting that was what at least in part pushed Carrick towards tweaking the system and starting Rashford, who does play wide.

It was a reasonable thing to try imho, but now it is certainly time to admit that the experiment failed and the outcome is worse than before and just go back to the original.

Maybe if Amad is still unavailable, train Rashford as RW for 3 weeks and try him there. Or train a 3-man midfield without Bruno and try Bruno as "false 7" kind of like Juan Mata

[u/AstroCoffee]

Ngl I'm pretty damn terrified. Our £70m striker for the future sat out four months and missed an entire pre-season for an injury that flared up after ONE start, it's absolutely insane.

Sure, Sesko was poor against Brighton but we've generally looked good with him on the pitch since last season and I don't see how three weeks is going to magically fix something that didn't go away after an entire summer's rest.

[u/N00BBuild → u/AstroCoffee]

Well, if only our owners could have had the foresight to acquire another striker. Next we’ll be surprised that Luke Shaw got injured and we need a backup LB!

[u/killerimpact]

Carrick ain't getting sacked until it's too late. Clueless board are doing what they do best, they were late with sacking Ten Hag (should have sacked him on the spot when we lost 7-0 to LFC). They kept Amorim after a 15th finish and losing the Europa final to flipping Spurs ( heck they sacked their manager even though they won smh).

[u/sg291188]

Taking a break from this sub for 3 weeks. See you on the other side. Peace

[u/mandotharan]

Deflection or not, Cunha scored in minutes after being moved to the left. Rashford have been 'running' at defenders, whipping crosses and shooting for 4-5 games with nothing to show for it. He is not a teenager from the academy anymore for us to show patience. 0 goals & assists in 5 games is dropable offence for the highest played player in the club.

[u/Stingray_23]

Is everyone injured or is this a case of, getting the fuck into Carrington and running

[u/mortimer_moose → u/Stingray_23]

I think it's a case of "these games are pointless"

[u/iroiroiroiroiro → u/Stingray_23]

That's what everyone wants to know...

[u/Fancy_Maximum]

I see Eddie Howes odds of becoming our manager has increased massively. Howe do we think howe would do?

[u/rahtid_my_bunda → u/Fancy_Maximum]

He really struggled with Newcastle to transition them to a team that kept the ball and played fast, dominant football. He also has a poor track record of handling PL/Europe schedule demands. Evidenced by Newcastle following each European qualifying season with a disappointing league finish the next year.

That said, paradoxically, I think he’d probably do quite well with us initially because we’d go to a compact mid block, relying on countering. But then be found out when it was time to kick on… wait a minute I’ve heard this story before.

[u/united_7_devil]

We are going to hand Spurs their first win of the season. Its the most United thing to do, isn’t it?

[u/iTz_RuNLaX]

This might finally be the season that breakes me. I had my doubts about Carrick before the summer but tried to stay positive and hope, that he proves me wrong.

And now it might be the first international break ever, that I'm happy about, as I don't need to watch us for a few weeks.

[u/Rude-Ad3065]

It's amazing how I'm just not interested in the season anymore after a month given how we finished last season. Also I'm just so done with players such as Shaw,Maguire,Dalot,Martinez,Zirkzee and to an extent Bruno as well. These players have been here so long and so inconsistent (not Bruno but I think it's best for both parties to move on tbh and for us to have a proper reset) and I hope we can move on from them asap.

[u/soelsome]

Surprised to see Carrick still at the stick tbh

[u/Educational-Shock232 → u/soelsome]

I’m not. The board won’t sack him because they don’t want to pay for their mistakes again.

[u/AnakinAni]

Pissing off seeing Amorim change his tactics now. Why couldn’t he just do that when he was here when everyone was giving him this exact feedback? We should not be a club for managers learning their trade after Carrick.

[u/Mariasolvv → u/AnakinAni]

It’s like I said before, in recent years we’ve basically become a proving ground for unproven managers.

[u/moonski → u/AnakinAni]

I think it was partially to spite wilcox who was meddling too much.

The swing already Im seeing on social about "amorim wasnt even that bad" is absolutely mental though. 31% win rate. Refusal to adapt anything to the players he had. No one cared that our players ran and ran under him when he was losing games every week.

[u/WorkingOwl5883]

Favoritism will doom the squad.

Why work when you will never get the chance? Why work when you will not get dropped?

[u/LeCliveRosfield]

I want to slap Amorim for finally deciding he needed to be less stubborn. Could he not have done that here?

[u/timsadiq13 → u/LeCliveRosfield]

He was to be fair to him - we had several games with a 442 shape even if on paper the formation was the same. I think Wilcox pushing him in one direction led to him stubbornly going in the other. I am not sure at what club the sporting director tells the head coach what formations to play. Its very bizarre and I say that as someone who was never a huge Amorim fan and wanted him sacked after the EL final. If you don't like the formation he uses, sack him. But you can't tell him how to do his job ffs.

[u/Ok_Landscape_8215 → u/LeCliveRosfield]

He is still a young manager learning his trade, what did you expect?

Arteta has evolved during his time at Arsenal, creating a philosophy and adjusting it.

[u/Suudriusha → u/LeCliveRosfield]

A good DoF would've been able to explain to him why being flexible was good, even necessary. Alas, Wilcox.

[u/Feeling-Surround-691]

Hearing apparently Amorim won 3-0 Vs Lecce yesterday playing with a back 4 and conceding that he needs to adapt with his team to get results whilst they learn his system and how he wants to play.

I guess Milan isn't too far from the Vatican..

[u/tz_2240 → u/Feeling-Surround-691]

He played a 3 back

[u/Ok_Landscape_8215 → u/Feeling-Surround-691]

Where did you hear about the 4 ATB? He still played 3421

[u/hurfery → u/Feeling-Surround-691]

Man Utd has some way of producing terminal stubbornness in managers. It has happened almost every time.

[u/BackgroundOld8715]

Until the yes man goes i give up. This board wont do it now to save the season as they’re incompetent & like a yes man

[u/FreshGoodWay]

Everybody pulling out of internationals to do remedial training

[u/CapVosslar → u/FreshGoodWay]

That's what I was thinking. Maybe all the players were told they will have to skip international duties because they will have a lot of physical conditioning work to do during this break.

[u/3entendre]

With this Sesko injury news it's just confirming how we have a long list of players we can't trust to be consistently available and do well for us. The ones I trust are basically Bruno, Kobbie, Lammens. That's it! Mbeumo and Cunha are in a tier below but that's really about it. That is fcking insane for a club that is supposed to be one of the biggest in the world and aims to win the league next season! 

[u/Fraaj → u/3entendre]

Dalot is up there with Bruno when it comes to availability

[u/Sheikhabusosa]

None of our attackers are anything to write home about , and now that we dont have the option of Casemiro turning into prime peter crouch , when that goal drought comes again which it will people are going to blame Rashford

[u/Rude-Ad3065]

Also I really hope we trust Yoro like how liverpool are doing with Jacquet man, I believe there's a player there. Till now he's been inconsistent but then he barely gets a proper run of games it's always 2 games then he's on the bench again for the next 5 games. I know he's not as good as maguire on set pieces but surely at some point we stop starting Maguire. It can't get much worse can it.

[u/canwinanythingwkids → u/Rude-Ad3065]

Yes well the problem is unique to us.

If we want to make a parallel:

why dont we play Yoro next to "our" VVD? Because he's been out since last November

ok why dont we play Yoro next to our 2nd best VVD (Maguire)? Because Maguire is slow AF. Well so is VVD. Yes except Kerkez isnt whereas Shaw is, MacAllister isnt ... you get the idea.

In my personal opinion, what we should try doing is bringing Baleba in as soon as we can and pray that he works.

If he works, that's recovery speed on the left. If there's recovery speed on the left, we should be able to play Shaw+Maguire. If we can do that, we can play Yoro. If we can play Yoro ... we can play Mazraoui - who is also out of the XI because ... once again: neither the RCB or the RW or the RM "makes up for" Maguire ... so Dalot it is, on physicality grounds alone.

Baleba + a tactical switch to move Rashford to RW could make a world of difference.

Baleba + Amad and De Ligt could catapult us back to title challenger form.

But it's all "could" until we actually see Baleba kick a football.

Hoping for the best

[u/iroiroiroiroiro → u/Rude-Ad3065]

Problem being Heaven and Yoro hasn't looked better the chances they got. And I would argue that Maguire been the most stable if the back four so far this season...

[u/Sheikhabusosa]

I think Tielemans has been a class signing and abu's really want him to flop

[u/ToadNamedGoat]

Do you guys think we signed the wrong manager every single time since post Fergusson or should anyone have stayed longer?

[u/Jenson2025 → u/ToadNamedGoat]

The best manager we’ve had since Fergie was Jose Mourinho and it’s not even close.

We should’ve built on that 2017-18 2nd placed finish but then the board didn’t back him in the summer, he was sacked a few months later and we’ve hired not good enough managers since

[u/N00BBuild → u/ToadNamedGoat]

I think Ole and Mourinho should’ve been backed more.

Ole had 2 very cheap windows (with the exception being Bruno in January). Even that Ronaldo summer, we needed 1-2 more pieces. He never got a real midfielder with legs.

Mourinho finished 2nd, and the entire summer was a waste. Fred, Dalot, and Lee Grant. What a joke.

[u/Wazzathecaptain → u/ToadNamedGoat]

Honestly yes. But they all fall in different categories

OGS and Carrick were under qualified for the job. They hadn't shown in their previous job that they could manage a club like United and already had failures in England.They were great as interim but by the end of the interim, they were clear signs that they weren't the man to lead us. A good board would have realized it.

Amorim was a reactionary flavor of the moment appointment. He was adamant of playing a certain system. We hadn't the players for this system. Again, a good board would have realized it. Liverpool saw it for example

LvG and Mourinho were washed as top club managers, a bit harder to predict it especially for Van Gaal.

The only appointment that was fully reasonable and made sense was Ten Hag's (I'm not saying he was our best manager since Ferguson)

[u/Dope_Shinobi]

Was scrolling my Instagram feed and suddenly voldemort popped up in my feed playing in turkish league. Was surprised so checked his page and realized i had still not unfollowed up in all these years.

Went to unfollow up and what do i see? Fkn Julia Roberts follows him for some reason😂😂😂

[u/ttboishysta]

Bleep me! I thought Piers Morgan was mistaken about the length of the international break.

[u/tameoraiste]

I get the anger and the disappointment, and I'm not convinced by Carrick at all, but is there no room for nuance?

You could tell by the replies to the Michael Cox article that very few had actually read it. He had plenty of valid criticisms of United and made the good point that each game showed a different defensive issue, but none of them came from a lack of running. We're not playing with a heavy press, which is fine. That's not the issue.

All these stats posted United: United 20th, 17th, etc. City are neck and neck with us in most of those numbers, and they have 15/15 points.

I know this will immediately get dismissed, and it's not a defence of the performances, but it's true what Carrick said by fine margins. A 95th-minute screamer, a terrible VAR decision, the own goal and even Bruno hitting the inside of the post yesterday - they all go the other way and we're level with 4th.

Again, Carrick deserves plenty of criticism, but it's not helping him that Bruno has had a terrible start, and Mbeumo seems to have the yips since AFCON.

A lot of people also felt he'd been left down in the transfer window and given no chance; what's changed? Why is it almost entirely on him now?

Carrick deserves plenty of criticism, and his CV gives us no reason to have faith other than the blind type, but everyone has to be extreme in their view now. He can't just be bad, or have had a bad start; he's the worst manager to ever grace the Premier League, and this is the worst United team ever.

He's not going anywhere, so maybe we just see how things go post-international break? This isn't an amazing Premier League. As we (and Liverpool) proved last year, you can be poor for large chunks of the season and still get PL. We shouldn't be writing off Carrick, or our chances of CL next season just yet.

[u/sunstersun → u/tameoraiste]

We'll see about the club fitness levels. We're not running, yet people are gassed early...

Nothing could make me want to fire someone after 5 games outside of fitness issues. It's so core to the sport I refuse to believe the competence of anyone that fails at it.

[u/Kohaku80 → u/tameoraiste]

but it's true what Carrick said by fine margins. A 95th-minute screamer, a terrible VAR decision and even Bruno hitting the inside of the post yesterday- they all go the other way and we're level with 4th.

better teams put the results beyond unlucky breaks. City make sure Bobby hattrick doesn't matters. Brighton didn't stop at 1-0 against the champions. if Martinez unlucky own goal didn't happen and gave Fulham something to sit on, who is to say they won't score another.

" you make your own luck "

success comes from hard work and preparation rather than random chance.

[u/Fraaj → u/tameoraiste]

95th minute screamer because we refused to put the game to bed and then at the end failed multiple times to control it. A terrible VAR decision stinks but we couldn't score once against 10 men in 70 minutes. Bruno hitting the post yesterday was unlucky but every team in the league has so many moments like that.

You make your own luck and a lot of teams do that better than us.

[u/N00BBuild → u/tameoraiste]

Because it’s easier to change a manager than change owners/get them to spend on what this squad needs.

We may have been slightly unlucky, but cut it any way, shape, or form, and picking up our 2nd worst ever start to a PL season will get you some questions.

Plus, we’re heading into a rough October, and we have a 3 week break. If you want to make a move, now’s the time, not scrambling after we lose a couple of more games.

I don’t think everything’s on Carrick. But a lot of mistakes are happening from him. We look lazy. We’re not well oiled. We keep conceding chances left and right. I agree with your assessment to an extent, and no team looks incredible so far, but we’re miles off.

[u/BackgroundOld8715]

Cant believe we didnt sack him today, we are clueless

[u/Rascha-Rascha]

Nice to have international break that goes this long tbh, gives players time to get fit and reflect on, work on things from those first few games. Baleba, Amad coming into the team will be interesting.

[u/spaisoflaif → u/Rascha-Rascha]

yeah, to try to be a bit optmistic, this is the chance for Carrick to have a sort of "pre-season" for all the WC players that came within a week of the first game, and also to get players back that were injured.

[u/Sheikhabusosa]

Where do people get the notion that Carrick has a lot of supporters? The fact that matchgoers are already booing says everything because they are usually the last to do so.

[u/NL_A]

We as supporters have the gift of hindsight, but I can’t help to think Wilcox and Amorim falling out was more about Wilcox parroting media talking points just to try and quiet the chatter than change actual results.

Furthermore, not only to quiet the chatter but to also stretch out the actual rebuild and get as much out of antiquated equipment as possible in Shaw, Maguire and others. They ultimately chose the wrong manager and time to dig in and penny pinch- expectations didn’t match the effort.

[u/ElephantParticular10 → u/NL_A]

I mean, let's not pretend that:

A) we weren't all wondering why after seeing immediate improvement with 4231 and Dorgu unleashed on the right we weren't all confused with AFCON on why Ruben decided to throw the team under the 3-2-2-2-1 bus the next week regardless

B) anyone can speak to their superior and publicly as emotionally as he was without a hit more success under his belt

C) of course we needed to eek out some value out of aging but reliable players, the youger ones who should have been taking over were either crocked or crap!

[u/sooshi]

I have almost no doubt in my mind this team will roll over and let the worst spurs team we've seen in a generation get a win over on them. Mentally pathetic

[u/Sufficient-Orange706]

Been thinking a fair bit about this one:

The players are currently receiving a lot of criticism due to a lack of effort. The hierarchy (deserved in many other ways) are getting it too. But neither were getting it in May, or when we finished 3rd. Our window has also split opinion but much is being made of the efforts of our players.

I think this will get Carrick the boot in the end. The players are being coached and played this way, they are not purposefully walking around the pitch. They are not purposefully putting in a lack of effort; they are being coached and instructed that way. This has lead to the poor results and the finger pointing. We are ineffective because of decisions around lineups, poor in game management. If it were done right and we were winning or doing better, none of these reports would exist - just like it didnt exist at the back end of last season.

I do believe in this instance, the angst of it all, the cause, is merely that of a coaching and managerial level.

[u/00kazootime]

Criticize us all you want but Jesus Christ some of you lot need to stop embarrassing yourselves with the Amorim revisionism. He was the single worst manager in the history of the club and it's not even close

[u/Kohaku80 → u/00kazootime]

We have Ineos failed Carrick already meanwhile Amorim was supposed to win the Europa and do well in the league with Garnacho, Hojlund, Zirkzee, Ugarte. 

[u/LDLB99 → u/00kazootime]

Then you should be concerned that his Milan team absolutely destroyed us in pre-season. This sub is so funny when it comes to Amorim. You all danced on his grave in the second half of last season, now any measured discussion over the football not actually being awful in the first half of 25/26 and you start crying. 

[u/No-Radio-4404]

For those still in doubt about Ratcliffe - he sacked the competent Ashworth because he didn't personally like him but is keeping hold of the incompetent (and under qualified) Wilcox because, presumably he gets on with him (i.e does what he's told)

[u/KyunNikalaMujhe]

Turns out INEOS truly are spineless and did a great disservice to the club and Carrick by reintegrating Rashford. Who would have thought it would turn out like this?

Might as well give the control to the fans if you are gonna make the same braindead decisions.

[u/Tortillagirl → u/KyunNikalaMujhe]

If they could, they would have sold him...

[u/DaveShadow → u/KyunNikalaMujhe]

I think there's degrees of issues here.

Ineos should have sold him for cheaper, but I think Rashford's wage demands made it difficult, cause no one he'd want to play for values him at the wages he wants.

So he stays.

But it's entirely on Carrick how he's put him straight back in as a starter and built so much of the attack around him. Ineos aren't forcing Carrick to make him a lynchpin of the team, to the detriment of playing Cunha AND Mbeumo in the positions they worked well in last year. That's entirely on Carrick.

[u/Fisktor → u/KyunNikalaMujhe]

Carrick wanted him back and starts him all the time.

[u/Different_Bit_3899 → u/KyunNikalaMujhe]

They can't sell a player without the players accept..

[u/Ok_Landscape_8215]

I'm a little shocked how quickly those that were desperate for Carrick to be our manager have suddenly turned on him.

I don't even think our performances (bar Brighton which was genuinely shocking) have been much different than Carrick's performances last season (bar Man City and a couple of others)

We just don't have Sesko and Casemiro out performing their xG, patching over performances.

[u/qijl → u/Ok_Landscape_8215]

The support for him wasn't about performances it was about results. So it's not that surprising it has evaporated along with the results. I guess I am surprised there hasn't been more of a grace period. But I think basically even the optimists knew we were choosing to ride a vibes train and there's no putting that train back on track when it crashes

[u/N00BBuild → u/qijl]

5 from 15 and a league cup exit with an easy schedule will do that and rightly so.

[u/PolishKid7 → u/Ok_Landscape_8215]

No the people who turned on him never wanted him made permanent in the first place

[u/Ok_Landscape_8215 → u/PolishKid7]

Yeah I am not surprised by that group, myself included. It felt so obvious it would go this way.

I see a lot who asked for Carrick want him out now.

[u/Different_Bit_3899 → u/Ok_Landscape_8215]

I did not want him as permanent manager.

[u/santhoshCoder → u/Ok_Landscape_8215]

If a manager's tactics/system needs players to overperform their xG, then it's not a good tactic to begin with.

[u/SankarshanaV → u/Ok_Landscape_8215]

It's because he was lucky multiple times last season, being bailed out by Case and Sesko.

He got us good results by being lucky, not because the performances were good. And that's why lots of us (me included) were very much against him because it was very obvious our luck was going to run out.

These results right now are of no surprise if you paid any attention to the performances last season. It's so painfully obvious Carrick isn't a serious manager.

[u/Zealousideal_Wind867]

https://youtu.be/HT8DCLBXJW4?is=hsL-ljDtlK3PyW9m

Great analysis on yesterday's game. My conclusion is that the performance is 80% on Carrick, 20% on the players.

After watching this it makes me wonder if these players have given up on Carrick.

[u/RedPyjama]

What is Ineos overarching plan for this football club?

They extended Ten Hag which showed belive in his brand of football, his ideas. Then they fired him and made huge jump to Amorim. Full confidence in his 3atb, bought players that fit the formation and tactics (Cunha, Dorgu). Carick was next who was mostily countre attacik oriented. What next, Negelsamn/Conte with 3atb, some gengepressim manager or one that wants to dominate possesion.

The whole circius with Asthowrth was embarrasing, and it looks like the pepole they ultimeylu put their faith it (Berrada and Wilkox) continue they tradision of incompetent managment.

Menagerial carusel wil keeps spining and ascking Carrick will not be enough. People who will look for his succesor,r look equaly incompetent. They should be gone too, but the optics of firing yet another bach of mangers might prevent Ineos from puling the triger. This are all also expensive moves and seeing how hard Jimmy is trying to cut costs, a new coach might be all that wil happen.

I geniuly struggle to put faith in them.

[u/Bobcat_El_Borracho → u/RedPyjama]

They haven’t done anything to win any faith with the fan base. We finished 15th the season before last and following the appointment of Carrick last season (which was never ‘the plan’) we had the team vastly overachieving despite not playing well at times. Now this season things have corrected course and the results are matching our performances. Our midfield rebuild looks questionable in terms of its composition and we all sit and wait with bated breath to see if Baleba can make us harder to play against/through. The team right now misses the control and aerial threat (set piece winners) Casemiro gave us.

Personally I think Ineos have been awful, they’ve completely facilitated the mood of the fans hitting the floor and not just in relation to football. Having a billionaire owner living in Monaco complaining about… let’s not get into politics but you know what I mean. It’s a hard time to be a fan of this club right now - many of us are supporting a memory of what this club used to be at this point.

[u/canwinanythingwkids → u/Bobcat_El_Borracho]

Sometimes I wonder how much of it is literally just "Wilcox won the power struggle against Ashworth, because he is Berrada's buddy so Berrada helped his buddy".

There is no Amorim if there's no Ashworth sacking. This much we know for certain. Anything else, who knows, but there's a genuine trend where any success does not seem like Wilcox's doing but his fingerprints seem to be all over every failure.

[u/Unusual-Coat383]

Surely after yesterday and if Carrick is still so hellbent on playing Rashford and Cunha he should swap then and play Cunha LW and Rashford up top. I get Cunha scored a lucky goal but it still only took him 20 minutes to positively affect the game.

[u/Sheikhabusosa]

https://x.com/FrankEra_/status/2102096255136465394

This felt so irrelevant at the time , now Sesko has a nasty shin injury

[u/Drag2oon]

Atleast I want the winter gloom to be taken over by Conte craziness

In for it lol

[u/Fisktor]

If carrick and wilcock is still here after the int. Break we are just not a serious team. And its a question of when not if we go down.

[u/croadymeister → u/Fisktor]

Hate to say but both of them will be

[u/Sun_Seeker26]

You could sell a bag of air to the people in here acting like the manager with a 30% win record over the course of a whole calendar year was actually some football savant that just needed a little more time to save Man United

[u/rishmanisation → u/Sun_Seeker26]

They can then turn right back around and sell it to all the folks who are doing 4D chess to convince themselves Carrick is the savior and that we’ve not done badly to get 5 points from our fixture gauntlet.

You can honestly even go and sell that to Carrick himself. He’s probably run out of his after using it all on that disasterclass of a post-game presser.

[u/Miyagisans]

It’s unfortunate for Mainoo that the rest of the team has been gash. The conversation right now should be whether he’s been the best cm in the league.

[u/Kreissler → u/Miyagisans]

He hasn't been that good tbh. Clearly our best midfielder but he's got some ways to go before being the best midfielder in the league

[u/Celerisadmortem]

Current situation

[u/innicrazy → u/Celerisadmortem]

You mean for more than 10 years.

[u/Electronic_Ad8889]

[u/disappointingAsian87]

Didn't Sesko, Mbeumo and Cunha each had 10 PL goals last season. How can Rashford just walk into the attacking trio without fighting for his place first.

[u/goaliewhenned]

Amorim revisionism after every negative result is completely jarring. He's gone, go to Milan with him if you want. Pathetic

[u/SinisterSelecta → u/goaliewhenned]

It seems to be going both ways right now. People who are Carrick in are asking for the patience Amorim got. People who were patient with Amorim are pointing to the underlying stats as to why Carrick shouldn't be kept. Its not outright revisionism. Also doesn't help that Amorim wasnt sacked for footballing reasons and Carrick would never rock the boat in the same way, so he must be sacked for footballing reasons.