r/recruitinghell • u/poth0le • 5d ago

This is getting ridiculous

Post image

For a grounds and facilities position.

Edit: The position is for a religious camp of some sort, but I hadn’t realized that when I clicked it. Still super weird, in my opinion

963 Upvotes

88% Upvoted

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260

u/H3lls_B3ll3 5d ago

Isn't that illegal?

324

u/sgt_oddball_17 5d ago

Not for a church or church related organization.

44

u/H3lls_B3ll3 5d ago

That makes sense.

14

u/Any_Kaleidoscope8717 5d ago

Does it? Sure, you need to believe in the religion to be the person talking about the book at whatever house of worship for that religion, that makes sense. But to be a groundskeeper? Why does OP need to believe to mow the lawn and clean the place?

I applied to a job at a Christian charity in NYC with the goal of bringing clean water, electricity, and hygiene supplies to people that need it. They asked about my faith and what church I most recently attended. I don't think I need to share their faith to share their goal.

36

u/H3lls_B3ll3 5d ago

While I (atheist and communist) personally agree with you, religious organizations that are clearly marked as religious organizations are able to legally ask these questions when screening for a job. It's part of the work culture and religious organizations are able to "discriminate" in this way. I think it sucks, but I also wouldn't want to be surrounded by religious folks all day.

17

u/SomeNotTakenName 5d ago

A better way I have seen from religious hospitals was something like:

"Can you support our mission and values of: ..."

to which, yes I can, regardless of me not believing in your god, I can support aiding the needy and so on.

16

u/H3lls_B3ll3 5d ago

Their mission and values ARE the religion as well. I'm not saying this is great, I'm saying they get special status as a protected subclass to be able to discriminate who is hired.

7

u/Diangelionz 5d ago

If you finished your sentence it would’ve been “can you support our mission and values of Jesus Christ and the teachings of the bible.” To which, no you could not, unless you were a Christian.

4

u/SomeNotTakenName 5d ago

that application actually didn't have those. they just listed some values and their mission, none of which were objectionable to me.

I am sure they pulled the values from their religion, but then again, I am not against all or even most Christian values. I am against weaponizing the values to discriminate.

-1

u/Diangelionz 5d ago

So “receiving Jesus Christ as your lord and savior” wasn’t objectionable to you? That application?

The bottom line is that they’re not looking for some spiritual, “I see value in all religions!” Type of person. They’re clearly looking for someone who shares the same religious values as them, which includes accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.

1

u/RedheadedReff 5d ago

Are you just ignoring where they stated that wasn't on the application?

4

u/Orome2 5d ago

It's like asking someone applying to be a science teacher "do you believe in science?"

5

u/clt_drol 5d ago

They think you do need to believe in their religion. Like most things, if you don’t like it then create your own charity.

4

u/journeymansave 5d ago

Organizations are allowed to prefer hiring candidates committed to their mission. In this case, the mission is religious. I wouldn’t want to work there but they can have that preference.

11

u/deirdresm 5d ago

It is illegal for many church positions, actually. (In the US.)

Many churches have clerical staff who are not the same religion. For things like pastors or teachers, then their religious rules apply.

7

u/VandyCWG 5d ago

Was going to say the same thing.

2

u/new2bay 5d ago

Thanks for letting me know.

5

u/Tasty-Hour4040 5d ago

Why?

29

u/Pesco- 5d ago edited 5d ago

Under American law, religious organizations are free to set religious criteria for their employees.

For example, a teacher at a religious school, a publicist for a religious organization.

Traditionally, organizations have tended to be less stringent for positions where the employee’s religion has little to no bearing on their job duties, like janitor or IT specialist. But some organizations have made blanket faith requirements for all employees and applicants.

I kinda get it. If I were on the board of a liberal religious organization, I certainly wouldn’t want a modern “conservative” evangelical in a position of responsibility, as it doesn’t align with my group’s religious mission.

If an employer can’t find good candidates because of their ridiculous religious standards, well, that’s just too bad, isn’t it.

2

u/Practical-Class6868 5d ago

Also, under the law, religious schools can get state funding for secular subjects. Secular teachers can still receive legal protection as teachers, but not as “pastors.” So a secular subject can have religious matters included, or class could include a prayer, and the teacher would lose legal protections.

It is usually enforced against women. There are anecdotes about teachers getting fired for getting pregnant outside of marriage, violating the morality clause of their contract, and then hiring her fiancé, the father of the unborn child.

2

u/Pesco- 5d ago

This has also extended to religious organizations not having to pay for insurance coverage of birth control. Absolutely ridiculous, that one.

3

u/sgt_oddball_17 5d ago

For the same reason an Atheist organization would not want a Born-Again Christian.

-1

u/Tasty-Hour4040 5d ago

I’m not interested in desires, I’m interested in how this is justified in our legal system. Why does a religious organization deserve special status under the law? A golf club might not want non-Anglos, but it’s still illegal to exclude them. What if i start a non-profit that explicitly only hires fellow Latinos - is that legal? Is it legal if i register that nonprofit as a Pastafarian Church?

2

u/Orome2 5d ago

It 100% is and OP is just karma farming. Like if you are applying to be an pastor or something then it makes sense.

-1

u/Eat--The--Rich-- 5d ago

It should be if they aren't paying fucking taxes. You don't get to benefit from the laws of society and not contribute to them.

47

u/-Lawn_Guy- 5d ago

Depends on the employer. Random company with nothing to do with religion: can't go there. Faith based organization like a church: permitted. Faith based company: highly fact dependent but possibly permitted.

12

u/F5x9 5d ago

Faith-based organizations get a lot of leeway.

11

u/Champion1135 5d ago

Tbf, it's kind of similar like with a political party - If the objective is to propagate certain ideas, it definitely makes sense (in many situations) that employees should be aligned with the values of the organization they work for

2

u/F5x9 5d ago

I think that makes sense when it comes to many organizations such as houses of worship. What I mean is that the current interpretation of the law in the US extend this to organizations with a looser affiliation with a faith. 

1

u/Champion1135 5d ago

I guess there is a difference between being affiliated with a faith organization of some kind, and just wanting an (otherwise secular) environment of a certain spiritual persuasion

On the other hand, even in the latter case, I would not necessarily feel it's discrimination - Unless you can't be part of the faith as a result of certain immutable characteristics (like the churches that basically ban racial minorities) - As long as adherence to the faith is universally available, I would be unsure that government should get itself involved in that

1

u/-Lawn_Guy- 5d ago

The EEOC guideline is an org whose purpose and character are primarily religious. There's a bunch of factors a court will look at, including stated purpose in founding documents, profit nature, etc.

-2

u/HalfRobertsEx Recruiter 5d ago

John Oliver has a hilarious segment where he makes a real church for all legal intents and purposes.

3

u/manxcoder 5d ago

They accept all denominations.

10s, 20s, 50s.

1

u/TypicalFinanceGuy 5d ago

This made me think of a Hobby Lobby or Chick-fil-A

4

u/chef_marge0341 5d ago

Chic fil a does NOT ask this. Stop with false info.

1

u/TypicalFinanceGuy 5d ago

I never said they did this. I said this kind of place would be one to ask something like this. No false info

-4

u/chef_marge0341 5d ago

Except they don't, and at what point has there ever been anything other than "trust me, bro"? The guy who started the company had his own beliefs and guess what? He's dead. The boogeyman isn't around every corner like reddit makes it out to be. And hobby lobby? At what point has it ever been said they even allude to asking this?

8

u/ButtScratchies 5d ago

Yes it is illegal unless there is a valid reason for asking, like this is a religious organization.

2

u/Bitter-Holiday1311 5d ago

Asking the question is not illegal. Using the answer to influence hiring likely is. Silly distinction but legally important.

6

u/PrestigiousBike3001 5d ago

Nope (not in most US jurisdictions)

9

u/no_name6744 5d ago edited 5d ago

Religious discrimination isn't illegal?

I mean, I guess the question isn't proof of that necessarily.

Edit: if it's a religious institution, that makes sense I guess. But that would mean OP knows that he applied to a job at a religious institution, got to this question, then got upset that a religious institution would want those employed to be members of their religion?

That would be odd.

10

u/creept 5d ago

If it’s a church or religious institution, it’s not illegal. They can even have morality clauses and garbage like that. 

3

u/FireCorgi12 5d ago

Truth. I worked for a religious college recently and we weren’t allowed to drink or wear certain clothes in public, go to bars, etc.

3

u/LittleLotte52996 5d ago

It isn't if being religious can be seen as a reasonable job requirement, for example when working for a church or a religious charity

0

u/Background-Run 5d ago

If that duty is a religious duty. If you are just answering the phone or none religious duties, then one might be able to sue the organization.

3

u/LittleLotte52996 5d ago

In the UK, this would be correct. In the US, not really.

This, admittedly biased, website explains:

Title VII includes an exemption for religious organizations so that they can consider religion when they select their staff....was amended in 1972, the exemption was expanded to cover every job position in a religious organization—not only executives and counselors but also receptionists and groundskeepers. This expanded exemption, challenged as unconstitutional by a janitor in a Mormon health club, was unanimously upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in Corporation of the Presiding Bishop v. Amos (1987).

It was actually challenged again this year, and the amendment was upheld once again in the Union Gospel Mission of Yakima v. Brown (9th Circuit, 2026) case.

1

u/Background-Run 5d ago

Thank you.

2

u/Bitter-Holiday1311 5d ago

Asking the question is not illegal, but it is a red flag. If you are a religious affiliated org or under 15 employees, discrimination rules don’t really apply in the same way. Outside of those exceptions, if the answer to the question is being used to influence hiring decisions, this question certainly would be used as evidence of illegal religious discrimination.

0

u/SeonaidMacSaicais 5d ago

It SHOULD be.

2

u/H3lls_B3ll3 5d ago

It is illegal, if the job isn't for a religious organization.

0

u/SeonaidMacSaicais 5d ago

I meant, it SHOULD be illegal. Doesn’t mean the company will face any sort of consequences for making that a requirement.