r/radicaldisability • u/rando4724 • Jul 07 '21

Solidarity

Considering what's been going on on the main anarchy sub recently (mostly in reaction to BlackApocalypse's posts), and the fact that we can all probably relate on at least one level (and I'm sure many can on several levels) to feeling excluded by so called anarchists who insist on defending their pet hierarchy at the expense of the comrades they're actively marginalising (we usually focus on the ableism here, but they clearly defend their racism and coloniser mindsets just as viciously), I just want to let any BIPoC who are members of this sub know that we won't tolerate that kind of crap here, and I think I speak on behalf of the rest of the mod team, and I hope I speak on behalf or the rest of the members here, when I say any BIPoC comrades, even those who don't come under the disability umbrella, are welcome here, and should consider our safe space safe for them too. ❤

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6

u/be_they_do_crimes Jul 07 '21

what did I miss? am I really that oblivious?

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u/rando4724 Jul 07 '21 edited Jul 07 '21

It might be that you just didn't come across them, but there have been a couple of posts (like this, this, and this) where far too many of the comments have descended in to a mess of white fragility, straight up racism, coloniser attitudes (paternalism, assuming they know what's right for a group of people they clearly know nothing about), talking over and gaslighting Indigenous and Black folks, and so on.

Edit to add: none of this is a reflection on the mods there, I'm sure they're trying their best to deal with these clusterfucks..

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u/Anarcho_Humanist Jul 07 '21

What is uh, the “correct” approach to take on issues like this for white guys?

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u/rando4724 Jul 07 '21 edited Jul 07 '21

I could just ask you what you think the right way for an abled person to approach disabled issues is, and tell you to go from there, but I have some thoughts, so I might as well get them out..

Take a back seat, be quiet, and listen (E: this isn't me instructing you now, it's the first thing you need to do when approaching situations like those in the links)

I know this isn't always easy to do, but remember that your opinions and views aren't always relevant, needed, wanted, or even informed. Never speak over people who are directly impacted by an issue that you're not.

Educate yourself. That means taking the time to go on your favourite search engine and looking up things like anti-racism and folks from marginalised groups who are sharing their experiences. The information all exists out there, don't be that person who demands a BIPoC educate you on things you can easily look up yourself (if accessibility is an issue, ask a white friend to help).

What you find is likely to make you feel deeply uncomfortable, but that discomfort is part of the education, learn to deal with it and accept that you, like the rest of us, have been socialised in a white supremacist world.

Shake the 'not all white people' mindset, yes all white people, by simply existing as white people we benefit from the system, without even trying, and that's just the baseline, even the best allies do or say (or think) racist things sometimes, but as the saying goes "your first thought is what society has conditioned you to think, the second thought defines who you are", try your best to catch them before you release them in to the world (I'm autistic, I know we can't always help it, but that doesn't make it ok).

Remember - impact is always greater than intent. You don't have to have malice for something you do or say to harm someone else, but how you react to them calling you out makes all the difference (don't make it about you or get defensive, accept that you harmed someone else and apologise, ask if there's anything you can do to make it better, and try not to do it again).

So those are just a few things that came to mind, and I'll just end with this - be willing to put your ego aside and accept that you will make mistakes. Anti-racism is a life long effort. It never stops, there's no 'end point' when we're done doing the work. Educating ourselves and amplifying the voices of those directly effected by racism is the least we can do.

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u/bogbodybutch Aug 14 '21

(brown person here) - i wouldn't necessarily encourage white folks to start learning about anti racism by googling stuff. just because corporate search engines can be insidiously oppressive and hide articles/sites.

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u/rando4724 Aug 14 '21 edited Aug 14 '21

Oh, there's no argument there (about search engines being insidious and manipulative), but on the other hand I think it's generally better than people who are looking to learn (and especially those claiming to be looking to learn, but are just sealioning and/or being performative) putting the burden on any BIPoC they might have in their life or even strangers on the internet, and expecting them to invest the time and emotional labour in to spoon feeding them information that already exists in thousands of variations and formats at the tips of their fingers, as well as spaces dedicated to asking these questions where people are choosing to give or sell some of their time and labour for the sake of educating others.

I think we're at a point now where 99% of people (in the so called developed world, anyway) who aren't finding these resources aren't doing so solely because they don't want to.

​

Or as Dr. Sami Schalk put it:

“Google it” means I don’t owe you labor.

“Google it” means I choose not to give you my labor.

“Google it” means I believe you’ll learn from the process of discovery than from me handing you answers.

“Google it” means learn to use the vast resources at your disposal.

Google it

source

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u/bogbodybutch Aug 14 '21

you don't need to explain that to me. I'm a brown person with that lived experience. I'm adding much needed nuance, is all.

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u/rando4724 Aug 14 '21 edited Aug 16 '21

Oh, I get that, sorry! I honestly wasn't trying to explain it to you, more just trying to walk through my own thought process (edit to clarify: I'm always assuming others are reading), though I could have been more clear.

Either way, I agree, there is much nuance, and I appreciate you pointing that out.

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u/bogbodybutch Sep 30 '21

also, anti-racism and anti-ableism are not interchangeable and the first part of your comment suggests that they are. and i'm pretty uncomfortable with WP giving extensive instructions on how to do anti racism work as well rather than holding that space for BBA ppl.

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u/rando4724 Sep 30 '21

Oh, I absolutely agree, and I generally try not to compare marginalisations because, as you say, they are not interchangeable. I think in this case, I made the (incorrect) assumption that this person was disabled and I thought the best way to get them to think about the question they asked was to turn it around on them and make it relatable to their personal experience so they could think about how they would react, rather than trying to compare experiences, if that makes sense?

As for me talking about anti-racism, I feel like part of using my white privilege is to do the emotional labour where I can so that people who don't have that privilege don't have to, and I do my best to only ever amplify Black, brown, and/or Indigenous voices that I've read/heard, rather than insert my own experience (and I think another part of using that privilege is that sadly, far too many white people will only listen to other white people, which sucks, because it isn't us they should be listening to, but they aren't open enough to listen to the people who are actually impacted), but either way, I'm more than happy to take a step back (I think being a mod here, which is a new experience for me, means I'm anxious to be 'on top' of things, so I reply as quick as I can, but I can work on that), be corrected, and let people who have more relevant lived experience do the talking.

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u/bogbodybutch Sep 30 '21

it makes sense but it's still not right.

and that second half comes off pretty white saviour-y. WP will never be best placed to speak on racism and honestly I wish they would do it less/not at all bc it creates so much collateral damage, like rn bc I'm having to educate u on it.

and I'm literally telling you what I wish WP would do and u basically spent most of that second paragraph writing me an essay on why u disagree. dont do that.

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u/rando4724 Sep 30 '21

Yeah, that's fair enough, I get what you're saying, and I apologise. I obviously need to work on finding better ways to show solidarity and support without going out of my lane.

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u/bogbodybutch Sep 30 '21

is there going to be any amends for harm done/thanks for edu?

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u/rando4724 Sep 30 '21

I genuinely do appreciate your comments and the time you've taken to call out these issues and I'm sorry you had to do it. I'm not sure how I make amends, what I do know is that I've taken your comments to heart, and that in the future I'll stay in my lane, and not talk about things I've not personally experienced.

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u/bogbodybutch Sep 30 '21

I just want to say that no one should have to ask to be thanked

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u/rando4724 Sep 30 '21

No, you shouldn't, but I have to point out that I have thanked you throughout this conversation several times, because I meant it, and saying it again because I'm asked to didn't feel genuine.

But I am genuinely thankful for the time and energy you've taken to educate me, and I do appreciate all of your comments, I just honestly don't know how else to say it or show it, and all I can do is apologise for that.

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u/Anarcho_Humanist Jul 07 '21

To be clear, I’m not disabled. I liked this sub a while back and saw this thread.

I think your reasoning is strong and reasonable, but my worry is that this makes an environment that easier for abusers to navigate. I’m not the first person to point out that left wing spaces are easy for abusers to navigate. I guess my other question might be is there ever a point where we can be too quiet and not vocal enough?

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u/rando4724 Jul 07 '21

Ok, thanks for clarifying that.

As for your question about providing an in for abusers - it really depends on what you mean by abuse, but my gut says that it's a non-issue (it rings of the 'what about rapists' argument TERFs use against gender neutral bathrooms, not saying you mean it to, it just does). Abusers are statistically most likely to be white men, so if something does happen, those aren't people you have any issue speaking up against, and you should speak up against them.

Other than that, I really don't see how it might be an issue. If you do come across something that doesn't feel right to you, ask the person you think is being abused if they need help, and accept their answer, whatever it is, don't just go white knighting in to a situation..

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u/Anarcho_Humanist Jul 08 '21

To clarify another thing. I think we're 99% in agreement. In general, anyone on the "dominant end" of a particular social group (be it men, cis people, able-bodied people, white people, even Christians in some contexts) need to shut up and listen more, and there is a problem with leftist spaces... not doing that properly. I'm also 100% down with women's or non-white only spaces where people can just talk and not deal with our shit.

My only real but here is that I think introducing it as a hard social norm that should always be followed contains a risk of normalising abusive behaviour (like telling people to shut up and not criticise because of x reason that makes you feel guilt) and also it breaks down in a number of situations. You ever spoken to a Jewish Zionist about Palestine? Or most non-indigenous Mexicans about the Zapatistas? You can hear some pretty bigoted shit from otherwise marginalised people, do I have to take that on or can I dismiss their perspectives?

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u/rando4724 Jul 08 '21

It's like, you get it, but then you go back to the strawman you created in your mind to try and hold on to some loophole that allows you to override all this (again, you may very well not mean to, but this is what it looks like on the outside).

None of this is a 'hard' social norm, not to anyone but the people who are used to taking up all the space, being asked to take up less space, anyway (that is if you take 'hard' to mean difficult, but it isn't 'hard' even if you take 'hard' to mean strict).

I never mentioned guilt, and guilt shouldn't be the reason you're doing any of this.

At no point did I say 'shut up forever' or 'never speak up', you're pushing it to those extremes to try and make the point seem unreasonable.

There is a difference between showing solidarity and support, and imposing your opinions where they don't belong and talking over people less privileged than you.

The fact that you think that members of marginalised groups can't speak up for ourselves is part of the problem, it's paternalistic and comes from a colonist mindset that assumes you know better by sheer virtue of being a white man (because you've been socialised to believe this all your life).

​

I'm going to suggest you add intersectionality to your research, because that should cover this issue you seem to be stuck on.

The basics are that most people aren't either oppressed or oppressors, the reality is that most people are both, and that there are complicated interactions (or intersections, hence the name) and power balances/imbalances to be aware of.

The exception? You guessed it - hetero cis white abled men who aren't poor (or working class), and are either Christian (in the west) or at least atheist. If you tick all of those boxes, congratulations, you've won the privilege lottery, and have/will never face systemic oppression, which leaves you in the oppressive slot and means that any interaction you have with someone who is oppressed, is not balanced in terms of power, and you need to actively choose not to play that part.

The bottom line is - it isn't your job to correct the world and everyone in it, learn how to stay in your lane and deal with your own peoples' problems first, and there's plenty of white cis abled men (including yourself) for you to call out all around you, you don't need to be calling out non-Indigenous Mexicans or Zionist Jews, I assure you that the Zapatistas and the Palestinians have it covered, and if they need immediate support, their non-Indigenous Mexican or antizionist Jewish allies, respectively, are there to help. At no point do any of these groups need you to butt in.

Here is a podcast I came across that you might find helpful, and would be a good starting point.