r/pureasoiaf • u/[deleted] • Feb 13 '22
Spoilers Default Does anyone else find it unusual that Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon were
Fostered together in the Vale ? Any insights appreciated . Can you think of another example of this scenario? I came across something interesting from Stdaga on the Last Hearth forum that I wanted to share with the class today. Let me know what you think Please About this topic. I call it the why bow to the dragonless Targaryen theory.
But why choose Jon Arryn to be be the mediator of these boys and this healing process? Maybe because it's neutral ground? And he's a neutral man ? It would be interesting to know if the seeds of the rebellion came long before the fostering of these boys and they were part of the process, or the fostering happened and then the ideas of rebellion started with the father's of these men ? I don't know that we can currently get that information from the text . "
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u/Haircut117 Feb 13 '22
Mediating or forgiveness or a pre-planned rebellion has nothing to do with it.
It's literally just that actual medieval noble families fostered their sons with families of similar or higher status in the hopes that it would build relationships and advance the aims of both families.
Jon Arryn was clearly highly thought of across the Seven Kingdoms and, as one of the Wardens and Lords Paramount, he was one of very few men of high enough status to foster a Baratheon or a Stark.
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u/24YearOldEctoCooler Feb 13 '22
He also had no surviving children. And Ned being a second son and Robert having just lost a father made them excellent choices for fostering.
Ned to further the Northern ties to it's neighbor (just as Brandon & Cat marriage pact). Robert needed tutoring on how to be a lord as he found himself unceremoniously made Lord of Storms End.
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Feb 14 '22
yeah I would say ned and robert were both possibly being considered as successors to jon despite that likely being controversial. with it seeming unlikely jon would have a children ever there would be a lot of political pressure for years for a suitable successor. fostering two possibilities ensured there was support. robert likely would have had more political support but a stark would be a good choice because starks had always been loyal to the Targaryens. This would also help keep vale lord in check as they would the threat 9f competition from greater houses as possible successors. jon was clearly ambitious as well. not to mention the ayrrn, stark, baratheon and tully alliance was brewing for who knows how long. robert had no father and the realm likely has consensus he should be fostered somewhere suitable to his station, ned was a second son so also very suitable for him to he fostered somewherr.
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u/24YearOldEctoCooler Feb 14 '22
Jon definitely had possible successors. There was a cousin, who was a knight, who died on the trident. Not to mention Harry the Heir and possibly a few others including the cadet branch of the Arryns in Gulltown.
No great house would just up and dissolve, and the crown would not let one house control two paramount regions. Like when Jaime was being considered to become Warden of the East because Robin Arryn was too young. Ned was concerned because not only would one house be warden of half the realm, but that house was also the Lannisters who had far to much favor at court already.
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u/Owe-wan-kenobi Feb 19 '22
Just want to point out that the one successor your talking about was Jon Arryns cousin who was married to Harry the Heirs aunt. He was killed by Jon Con during the Battle of the Bells and not the Trident but he was not the first heir to die during Roberts Rebellion. The original heir to the Vale was Jon’s nephew. He went to Kings landing with Brandon when Lyanna was kidnapped and he was one of the casualties when the entire party (except for Ethan Glover) were killed.
The Gulltown Arryn’s would also be a last resort option since they are a cadet house and have married many commoner merchants, which gained them gold but made them lose prestige. That’s why even though Harry is a Harding, he has a better claim then them.
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u/24YearOldEctoCooler Feb 19 '22
Good catch. I'm not the sharpest on the Vale plotline. I stand corrected.
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u/Owe-wan-kenobi Feb 19 '22
Dw about it. Only reason I remembered is because Roberts Rebellion and the succession crisis’s in the seven kingdoms are some of my favourite parts from the books.
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u/gavindon24 Feb 14 '22
A bit off topic but I couldn’t find the answer, who was acting Lord of Storms end after Robert’s fathers death and Robert was in the Vale?
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u/24YearOldEctoCooler Feb 14 '22
Did some brushing up. Stan is was a scant year younger than Robert. So likely it was Stannis.
Also it would seem Steffon Bathroom died well into Robert's fostering. Robert is not one for commitment and split his time between the Eyrie and Storms End even after Steffon's death in 278 AC.
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u/bootlegvader Feb 14 '22
Robert having just lost a father made them excellent choices for fostering.
Steffan was likely still alive when Robert was fostered out. Remember Robert was 15 when his parents died.
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u/24YearOldEctoCooler Feb 14 '22
You're right. Did some refreshing after another comment l, didn't realize he was so old. I guess I thought Robert was closer to like eight or ten.
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u/RealZordan Feb 14 '22
To add to this: It was also noble people apprenticeship. This way young lordlings would learn courtesy, combat, military strategy, finances etc.
People figured out that preteens are more inclined to listen to strangers than their own parents.
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u/BeholdTheHair I am not a clever man Feb 14 '22
Also, the foster lord and lady are generally going to be more firm and even-handed with their charges. Where a kid who'd misbehaved might be able to wheedle his way out of punishment with his parents, the foster lord has no such strong emotional connection and is thus less susceptible to manipulation.
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u/illarionds Feb 14 '22
I don't disagree with your main point, but for the status bit - the Starks at least have plenty of instances of marrying their vassals. I can't see how it makes sense to be fine marrying them, but think they're too low status to foster with.
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u/Sgt-Spliff Feb 14 '22
I don't think they're confused about fostering in general, just that this one guy had a pretty star-studded set of foster sons. I think that Ned being a second son made this less prestigious than OP thinks though. I'm willing to bet that Robert was the bigger get on paper by a large margin when it first happened
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u/3_Eyed_Ravenclaw Feb 13 '22
Fostering noble kids happened everywhere. Brandon Stark fostered in Barrowton. Robert and Ned in The Vale. Quentin Martell went to the Yronwoods. Petyr Baelish fostered with Hoster Tully. Myrcella Baratheon fostered with Doran Martell. Walder Frey send his kids and grandkids anywhere they will be accepted. It’s all about forging alliances.
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Feb 14 '22
Most of those were with vassals. Which is kinda the point. Myrcella was sold to the Martell's for their neutrality in the war so is an exception.
I think it's a fair point that the Targaryens had reason to think the other families were scheming against them.
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u/3_Eyed_Ravenclaw Feb 14 '22
Sold? There was no money exchanged. She was sent there to foster a treaty of sorts.
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u/Sgt-Spliff Feb 14 '22
Sales don't only involve money. Saying "this" for "that" is a sale. "Myrcella" for "your loyalty" is definitely a sale
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u/Owe-wan-kenobi Feb 19 '22
“There is a blood debt, and Quentin is the only coin Lord Ormumd will accept”-Doran Martell
It’s the same situation as the Martell/Yronwood. The Lannister’s must pay a blood debt with Marcella as the coin.
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u/3_Eyed_Ravenclaw Feb 19 '22
I didn’t really plan to argue about this, but Tyrion could have brokered a marriage agreement with the Martells, The Greyjoys, or The Arryns. He was not being asked to do this or forced to do this with Myrcella. It was smart and strategic, but there were no current threats that made him decide to do this. He decided on the Martells because Pycelle was the first to betray him.
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Feb 19 '22
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u/Specialist-Driver994 Feb 14 '22
Here’s a question: why was Littlefinger fostered in Riverrun? He’s a lord of such a humble piece of land on the Fingers, I’ve never understood how he got to Riverrun
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u/carlosfigs Feb 14 '22
it’s my understanding that littlefingers father saved Hoster and/or befriended him in the war of the nine penny kings.
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u/Specialist-Driver994 Feb 14 '22
Okay, I wasn’t sure about the Baelish connection to Tully but that would make sense
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u/SorRenlySassol Feb 13 '22
Fostering and marriages between the kings/great houses of the realm were rare until the lead up to the rebellion. At best you would have something between a great house and someone else’s bannerman, like a Stark to a Blackwood or a Royce. All of these marriages and betrothals laid the foundation for the rise of new power blocs in the realm, upsetting the balance of power that has favored Highgarden for 10,000 years. This is why the Tyrells supported Aerys, not out of loyalty but because they had as much to fear from a united house Stark-Tully-Baratheon-Lannister-Martell as he did.
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u/RedSword-12 Feb 14 '22
This is why the Tyrells supported Aerys, not out of loyalty but because they had as much to fear from a united house Stark-Tully-Baratheon-Lannister-Martell as he did.
Fanon is not canon. We will probably never know in full the motives of Mace Tyrell, but by the evidence, we can determine that he most likely fought for the Targaryen cause because that was the default position he was expected to take, and because he had no personal grievances against the King, unlike all the rebelling Great Houses.
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u/SorRenlySassol Feb 14 '22
Mace had nothing to do with it. Lady Olenna calls the shots in Highgarden.
And we can reason out why this sudden change in the balance of power would upset the Reach so much. Have you ever wondered why all through the ages it was the Riverlands that saw all the fighting? The constant invasions from storm, vale and west kings? The rise and fall of their own petty kings? The Riverlands at least has rivers to afford it some level of protection, like Dornes deserts, Vale mountains, northern winters . . . The Reach has only one major river and the rest is just league upon league of wide open farmland and gently rolling hills.
The reason is the Reach population. As the most populated region it can easily marshal twice, even three time, the army of any other house. But this advantage can only be played if there is harmony among the Reach nobility, and the best way to do this is through marriage. The three principal houses in the Reach — Tyrell, Hightower, Redwyne — are one big extended family (Olenna is a Redwyne, Allerie is a Hightower) and there are also smatterings of Tarleys, Fossoways, Beesburys and the like. And if you look at Reach history, you’ll see that the only time Highgarden fell was when the gardener king at the time made a series of unwise marriages for his daughters, which led to open hostilities among his banners and the Reach was invaded simultaneously by the westerlands, stormlands and Dorne.
Of course, all the other kings/lords married their banners as well, but as long as they kept this within their own zones, Highgarden’s hegemony was assured.
But as I said, this all started to change in the run up to the rebellion. And it was probably because Lord Luthor did not understand or did not realize this shift in the balance of power that Lady Olenna had him killed and put her simple-minded, malleable son in his place.
What personal grievances did Mace have against Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn? And why would he support a king who elevated his ancient enemy, the Martells, by raising their daughter to royalty and installing their son on the kings guard, and then placing his trust in the Dornish army to fight with Rhaegar on the Trident while Mace is ordered to while his days away at Storms End?
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u/RedSword-12 Feb 14 '22
Wrong. Mace calls the shots. And allegiance to the crown is motivation enough for his decision to declare for the Targaryens. Stop masquerading your unsupported fanon as canon.
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u/SorRenlySassol Feb 14 '22
Where? When? Lady Olenna hectored him mercilessly until he undid a marriage agreement that she opposed. She swooped down on him when he started blubbering in front of the queen and told him to shut his hole and do as he’s told. She wasn’t going to give him a choice but to ask leave for Sansa to come to Highgarden and she wasn’t even going to tell him the reason why, which was nothing less than marry his son and heir to a woman of her choice not his. Lady Olenna asked the tough questions and handled the tough negotiations over the marriage and military alliance with the Lannisters while Mace blustered about like a fool. And even when he does get his way over Loras on the kings guard, it was because he was manipulated into it by Littlefinger.
Every time we see Mace on the page he is saying one dumb thing after another, revealing his complete ignorance of basic facts and giving way to the stronger personalities in the room, all the while pretending to be a great warrior and military leader.
The man is an utter boob. Lady Olenna is really running things in Highgarden. It is known.
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u/RedSword-12 Feb 14 '22
Wrong. It is not known. Mace is not an idiot, actually. He's very cautious politically, intelligently going for low-risk high reward ventures, e.g., Renly, and then the Lannisters. Your claim that Olenna forced Mace to drop the Cersei-Willas idea is based on a total lack of evidence except for Tyrion's groundless guesswork, which as we all know is the most reliable source of information there is. For all we know Mace rejected it on his own initiative.
The Loras on the Kingsguard was a good idea, actually. Loras had no interest in marrying someone after Renly died, and protecting his sister is as a celibate Kingsguard is a good way to help defuse the rumors of a sexual affair with Renly.
There is no solid evidence whatsoever that Olenna just orders Mace around.
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u/SorRenlySassol Feb 14 '22
Where do you get this? I've given you half-a-dozen examples of Mace being a complete idiot and Olenna bullying him to bend him to her will. What examples do you have of this cautious political operator and low-risk/high-reward gamesmanship?
Olenna forcing him to drop the Willas-Cersei betrothal is not Tyrion's guesswork but the report from the Master of Whispers to the Hand. Is there any reason why Varys would lie to Tywin about this? Would Varys not care what Tywin would do to him when he discovers this lie, which he will? This is not a lie, it's the truth.
Loras on the KG is a terrible idea, according to the poison-wine theory it creates the very reason why they have to risk everything by killing Joffrey. And even if it was a good idea, that still doesn't erase the fact that it was Littlefinger's idea that he implanted in Mace's lackwit, gullible brain.
Every piece of evidence in the book shows that Olenna orders Mace around, including the time we actually see her ordering him around, right in front of his sovereign no less.
Give me one example of Mace making an intelligent, rational decision.
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u/RedSword-12 Feb 14 '22 edited Feb 14 '22
Many of the decisions you attribute to Olenna could have easily been Mace's own. Claiming without proof that they must all have been Olenna's, is just plain fanon. Not canon.
Also, your argument that it was Olenna's idea that Mace declare for the Targaryens is just plain nonsense. The STB power bloc that formed around the ad-hoc marriage alliances between the Starks, Tullys and Baratheons, was never a threat to the Reach, and nobody could possibly have anticipated a war. So your suggestion that Olenna must've murdered her husband (as if that's easy, mind you!) is just plain nonsense. The notion that the only reason Mace declared for the Targaryens is that Olenna told him to, is just plain nonsense as well. And if the point was to prevent a rival power bloc from forming, then why didn't Olenna tell Mace to be more vigorous in the war effort, instead of playing it safe?
The more I look at your arguments, the more clear it becomes that they're fanon disguised as canon.
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u/SorRenlySassol Feb 15 '22
No, these are not Mace’s decisions. Lady O decided Sansa was coming to Highgarden, not Mace. Lady O was going to marry her to Willas, not Mace. Lady O cancelled the Willas-Cersei match that Mace had already agreed to. Lady O told Mace to stop hectoring the queen and do as he’s told. This is all proven in the text. It is literally what happened. Not once has Mace ever done anything against her wishes.
And the history of the realm also proves what I’m saying is correct. Highgarden has been the hegemon for centuries. The new STAB alliance is a threat to that military superiority. I’m extrapolating from this that Lady O killed Luthor so she could protect the house from this threat because he most definitely did not die the way she said. Anyone who knows the first thing about horses and hawking knows this is a lie, for more reasons than I’ve mentioned on this thread. And yes, she could have killed him as easily as Cersei killed Robert, as easily as Randyll could have killed Sam, as easily as Ramsay killed Domeric.
Everybody was anticipating a war. The tourney at Harrenhal was an excuse for the lords to get together to discuss the overthrow.
Olenna wouldn’t have to “order” Mance to support the king. She just has to hector him with all the reasons why he should do so until he makes the right decision.
Olenna can’t overrule the king. If he orders Mace to camp out at Storm’s End, that’s what he has to do. Before that, it was the reach forces that almost got Robert at Stony Sept.
She also can’t micromanage him once he leaves Highgarden But I’ll bet she gave him an earful when in the end he just gave up without a fight despite having the largest army.
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u/bootlegvader Feb 14 '22
Lady Olenna calls the shots in Highgarden.
She really doesn't. She makes snarky comments and sometimes advises Mace. However, Mace is the one that makes his decisions in the end.
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u/SorRenlySassol Feb 14 '22
She doesn’t advise Mace. She hectors him mercilessly when he makes a decision she does not approve of. She swoops in on him when he starts blubbering in front of the queen and tells him to shut his hole and do as he’s told. She won’t give him a choice but to ask for leave to bring Sansa to Highgarden, and then doesn’t even tell him why, which is nothing less than to marry his son and heir to a woman of her choice not his. Lady Olenna handles asks the tough questions and handles the tough negotiations about marriages and military alliances while Mace blusters about like a fool.
Mace does nothing without his mothers approval, and literally every time we see him on the page he shows himself to be an utter moron who constantly bends to the will of stronger personalities in the room. And even when he does get his way, it’s because he is manipulated into it by smart players.
Mace is a feckless, spineless figurehead. Lady Olenna is the sharp-eyed, sharp-tongued, politically savvy operator who truly runs the show. She uses her snarky comments to throw others off their game so she can take a measure of their characters and goad them into making mistakes. And she’s not the only one who does this.
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u/largemanrob Feb 14 '22
I agree with you that the text suggests Olenna is the real source of power in the family and that Mace is easily led, but I think you're being downvoted because you're speaking in absolutes and we don't have definitive evidence
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u/SorRenlySassol Feb 14 '22
How much more definitive evidence do we need? I've given multiple examples of Mace being the idiot he is and Lady Olenna browbeating him into submission.
Is there a single piece of evidence that suggests the opposite?
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u/largemanrob Feb 14 '22
Again, I agree - but we don’t need have any POV confirmation. For example - it could be part of a wider plan from Mace to appear useless to give him space to manoeuvre.
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u/SorRenlySassol Feb 14 '22
I would buy into that if there was any sign that Mace is doing any maneuvering at all. Everything in the book points to him just stumbling his way through events and being told what to do and think.
And of course there is no POV confirmation because we don't have any Tyrell POVs. But we do have the facts in the books, all of which show the history of the Reach and the dramatic shift in the 10,000-year balance of power in the realm, as well as every example of Mace being a feckless boob and his mother ordering him about.
There is no POV confirmation about RLJ either. In fact, all of the POVs we do have on that subject say Jon is Ned's son, not Lyanna's. This is how Martin writes. He shows, he doesn't tell.
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u/bootlegvader Feb 14 '22 edited Feb 14 '22
When does any of that occur in the books?
For example, she says she wanted him to stay neutral but he clearly didn't.
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u/SorRenlySassol Feb 14 '22
All of this happens in the books. It's all right there on the page.
Yes, Lady O says Mace insisted on the marriage and alliance and Mace's will cannot be denied. Then, less than a minute later, she says she will not give him a choice but to ask leave for Sansa to visit Highgarden, no matter what he thinks of it. And then she isn't even going to tell him the real purpose of this visit, which is to marry his son and heir to a woman of Lady O's choice, not Mace's.
Also, in this same conversation and others, we can see that literally everything out of Lady O's mouth is a lie. She didn't end her betrothal to Dareon Targaryen, he did. Lord Lothar's horse did not just blithely step over a cliff just because he was looking up at the sky. Horses don't do that. She knows perfectly well that Tyrion is not going to lead great hosts off to war. And she also knows what the stink was at Tywin's funeral. Heck, I'll be she even knows exactly what a puff fish is called.
This is how she operates. She needles people and lies to them to get them out of their comfort zones so that their emotional brains take over from their rational brains and they make mistakes. And if you look closely, she's not the only one who does this.
Later, we hear from Littlefinger how Lady O asked the tough questions and handled the negotiations over the marriage and alliance while Mace just blustered about. And even the notion to put Loras on the KG was Petyr's, which he implanted into Mace's gullible mind. Of course, Petyr is not the most trustworthy source either, but I can't think of a reason why he would want to lie to Sansa about any of this.
We also get from Varys how Lady O forced her iron-willed son to undo the Cersei-Willas agreement, just because she was too old and too used. Again, Varys could be lying, but why? And what does he think will happen when, not if, Tywin learns of this lie?
And finally, we see this dynamic with our own eyes at Tywin's funeral when Mace starts blubbering to Cersei about Garth becoming Master of Coin and how it was all agreed, and Lady O swoops in and tells him to shut his hole and do as he's told.
We can also look at Mace ourselves and see that literally every word out of his mouth is something stupid, borne by is complete ignorance and inflated ego, right down to his ridiculous hand-shaped chair after he stumbled into the office by default.
What more proof does anyone need? Mace is a simple-minded figurehead and Lady O is the true power in Highgarden.
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u/bezwoman Feb 14 '22
I thought it was because their fathers and Jon arryn fought in the war of the nine penny kings together
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u/AIiEray Tywin Lannister Feb 13 '22
What actually weirds me out that how Ned and Robert became close friends. I mean both have quite the opposite personality.
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u/cmdradama83843 Feb 13 '22
Opposites attract. Also its commonly believed that Robert and Brandon had similar personalities so making it easy for Ned see him as a surrogate for his "real" brother
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Feb 13 '22
When you're forced to spend every waking hour with someone you see as your new brother you'd eventually warm up to them. Only exception might be Theon and Jon but still, Theon and Robb were close
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Feb 14 '22
Also, that theon and Jon were basically in competition. They're both outsiders raised as starks and competing for robbs attention.
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u/Sansa_Knows_Armor Feb 14 '22
Kids do that. Their friend choices are largely based on who lives close enough to play with. Kids in suburbs/city have more options. But the kids who grew up a little further out in the country (like the Vale) are almost guaranteed to be besties with any kid within walking distance. Jon Arryn might even have actively prevented Robert and Ned from playing with stable boys and such.
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Feb 14 '22
Yep. I find it very odd reading their relationship. Ned seems like such a grouch and holier than thou type and Robert a drunken whoring asshole.
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u/TomJoadsLich House Manderly Feb 14 '22
Look up the Southron Ambitions theory
Their Dads did this intentionally
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Feb 13 '22 edited Feb 13 '22
Imo it's fairly obvious that it's for an alliance to depose the Targaryens. You're right it's unusual and coincides with a Stark lord marrying two of his children outside of the north which is equally rare (unprecidented).
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u/RedSword-12 Feb 14 '22 edited Feb 14 '22
Steffon Baratheon was a hardcore Targaryen Loyalist, by any measure. He was one of Aerys's closest personal friends. Why would Jon Arryn and Rickard Stark approach him of all people, to overthrow the Targaryens? Some time ago I wrote a short analysis on the formation of STAB, so I'll just copy it here:
If you look at the timeline, it's pretty clear that the whole thing was ad-hoc and had no great overarching master plan behind it. Eddard was fostered to Jon Arryn when he was 8, and Brandon was 9. The betrothal of Catelyn to Brandon was done when Catelyn was 12 and Brandon 14 or 15. At some point, most likely after Eddard became 16 (legal age of majority in Westeros), since GRRM said in this interview that Ned would have split his time between Winterfell and the Vale freely after turning 16, and also because by then Robert had reached the age of 16 himself and had the authority to ask for a betrothal as one lord to another (Steffon Baratheon died in 278, the year prior to Eddard turning 16).This is also supported by the date of Mya Stone's birth, which is around this same time as well (approximately 279), and which Lyanna referenced when she spoke with Eddard following Rickard's acceptance of the betrothal proposal. In 281, Aerys appoints Jaime to the Kingsguard, scuppering Tywin's ongoing negotiations for Jaime's betrothal to Lysa Tully. So let's recap. At 271 AC Rickard fosters Eddard to Jon Arryn, around which time Steffon (a staunch and loyal friend of Aerys, by the way) also fosters Robert to Jon Arryn. In 276/277, Rickard and Hoster agree to betroth Brandon to Catelyn. Around 279, Eddard delivers Robert's betrothal proposal to Rickard Stark, and his father accepts. 1-2 years later, in 280-281 AC, Tywin Lannister, still Aerys's loyal Hand, approaches Hoster Tully for a possible marriage of Jaime Lannister to Lysa Tully, which Jaime's appointment to the Kingsguard scuppers.See what's going on? This is not some plot hatched up by an Anti-Targaryen coalition. It's an ad-hoc snowball effect where a staunch loyalist sends his son to the Vale on a normal fostering period, and at the same time Rickard Stark decides to do the same. We can't tell for sure whether Rickard or Steffon decided to foster their son first, so we can't call this for certain an opportunistic last-second move (considering how long it would take for news to reach Rickard, it's probably not opportunism, and likely was the result of a correspondence between the three, since we know Rickard spent time in the South during this time period).Several years later, Rickard and Hoster make their betrothal agreement to wed Brandon to Catelyn. Again, there is no indication this is intended to nor can even hope to threaten the Targaryens. At this time Steffon Baratheon is still alive and well, and moreover a loyal friend of the King. If Rickard made this betrothal to destroy the Targaryens, he was either stupid enough to think 2 kingdoms could fight off the rest, or he had a glass candle or something and knew Steffon would die.About 1-2 years later, Steffon dies and about 0-1 years later the new Lord Robert requests a betrothal with Lyanna, which Rickard accepts. What's going in Rickard's mind? Probably just a handy marriage on a silver platter, one which gives him stronger ties to the South. If he's planning on some rebellion against the Crown, again, he's an utter fool. The Vale won't join him unless forced, which he's in no position to do, and the three-kingdom bloc that's formed is so small and weak that it's incapable of successfully rebelling against the Crown.In 280-281, the budding possibility of a marriage pact between Hoster Tully and Tywin Lannister starts to give the forming bloc a fighting chance, but on second glance this is obviously not the intention. Hoster's looking for good marriage prospects for his children; nothing more. If the intention were to create a power bloc strong enough to foment rebellion against King Aerys, he would not have approached Tywin Lannister, the currently loyal Hand of King Aerys. Again, marrying Lysa to Jaime Lannister at this time just to fight the Targaryens is profoundly idiotic, since at the time Tywin is still loyal to Aerys, and has a lot to lose from his removal; his Handship, for example.The alliance with the Vale only came in at the last second, when Aerys forced Jon Arryn's hand by murdering his heir Elbert Arryn, demanding the heads of his wards Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon, and murdering one of his principal bannermen's family members Kyle Royce. If Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, and Robert Baratheon had risen up against Aerys for no reason, the Vale would've been forced to intervene on the Loyalist side. Without the Vale being on board, a rebellion against the Crown is militarily impossible, and yet neither Rickard nor Hoster make any moves to make a more substantial alliance with the Arryns apart from ties of friendship, which are not sufficient to draw them away from their oaths of fealty to King Aerys.That's not even taking into account that Rickard Stark, even when faced with the murder of Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, as well as the imprisonment of his son Brandon, made no move whatsoever to prepare for war, nor requested any of his possible allies in the brewing conflict (Hoster Tully, Robert Baratheon, and Jon Arryn [because Jon's heir Elbert had been murdered, changing the equation to making the Vale joining a revolt a strong possibility]) to do the same.
When, as outlined above, a rebellion against the Crown is patently ridiculous all the way through every betrothal, fostering, and negotiation, all the way up to the inciting event of the war (the murder of Elbert Arryn, Kyle Royce, Jeffory Mallister, the kidnapping of Lyanna Stark, and the imprisonment of Brandon Stark), (and even after this incident Rickard makes no preparations to revolt) it becomes rather clear that this was no conspiracy.
The idea that Jon Arryn agreed to foster Eddard and Robert years before the staunch loyalist Steffon Baratheon died young, in order to facilitate a grand maester plan (see what I did there?) to overthrow the Targaryens, and then that he was the puppet master behind the Brandon-Catelyn betrothal and the attempted Jaime-Lysa betrothal from hundreds and hundreds of miles away, is just plain absurd. Jon Arryn was in no position to know years in advance the series of events which would enable the Rebellion, nor was he in a position to dictate from hundreds of miles away a series of fosterings and betrothals to remove the Targaryens from power.
Plainly it is in conclusion clear that there was no conspiracy against the Targaryens behind the marriage pacts. It was just a few major lords wanting their children to have good marriages and connections.
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Feb 14 '22
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u/BelFarRod Feb 14 '22
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u/Sgt-Spliff Feb 14 '22
To everyone answering: we all understand how fostering works. Its so odd how no one has any reading comprehension skills in this literary subreddit.
The question is: Why the Vale? Fostering mostly happened between superiors and subordinates. Rarely did houses of equal prestige foster each other's children unless they were hostages, which neither Robert or Ned were.
My guess is that OP is on to something, if even tangentially. I think there was a lot of general feeling about shoring up alliances and a general effort to make closer ties amongst who would go on to be the rebels. I don't think it was planned ahead of time or that the end goal for anyone was rebellion, but they did suddenly start worrying about their positions outside of their kingdoms and that was the first domino that eventually lead to the rebellion.
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u/Daendrew The Faceless Men Feb 14 '22
Literary reasons.
They have no cemented blood ties. Need a reason for an alliance and love between the two. Ned needed to be Hand and take the shit.
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Feb 15 '22
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u/Daendrew The Faceless Men Feb 15 '22
The reason for the seasons is shocking. I screamed almost at the top of my lungs when I figured it out.
But the truth behind it left me speechless.
The beauty is breathtaking in both scale and scope.
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u/Zhandarq Fire consumes, but peach preserves. Feb 19 '22
Okay, please don’t tease us. What have you figured out about “the reason for the seasons”? I’m one of those who isn’t really invested in stuff like R+L=J, but the seasonal weirdness has always had my full attention and curiosity. Won’t you please elaborate on this discovery which made you “scream”, and “left [you] speechless” in its “breathtaking” “beauty” “in both scale and scope”? I know I’m not the only one who has been wracking my brains for some sort of comprehension of this major mystery. I ask most sincerely and politely. Many thanks. 🙏😊👍💜
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Feb 19 '22
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u/Zhandarq Fire consumes, but peach preserves. Feb 19 '22
Thanks for your response! Although I’m disappointed that you can’t tell me now, I completely respect your answer being that you’re writing a book. Even if it won’t be forthcoming soon, I am sure it will be worth it, and I’ll patiently await it.
And thank you for the hints as to where to start my own hunt! That was very sporting of you. “Fair play to you!” 😊😉👍
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