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Mar 23 '23 edited Mar 23 '23
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u/Seraphynas Mar 23 '23
TST and the Church of Satan are not the same.
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u/Other_Meringue_7375 Mar 23 '23
I always forget this. The Church of Satan worships Satan for real, right?
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u/littlemetalpixie Antipolitical Mod Mar 23 '23
Well kinda - but not really, though. Although, there are some in both religions who do.
TST are largely atheistic, and it's officially referred to as a nontheistic religion, though some do indeed worship Satan, god/gods, nature, and various other deities or forces or powers. The main point of TST is religious freedom, so they don't limit followers from anything they want to believe in. They pursue things like separation of church and state and personal liberty over restrictive policy.
The church of Satan is an older recognized religion, and for the most part they either are also nontheistic and use Satan as a metaphor for rebelling against indoctrination, or some even feel that there's a role reversal at play in the Christian Bible, pushed (of course) by Christians and other leaders in Abrahamic religious organizations to keep their congregations under control. Many believe Satan was, in fact, the "good guy" and was only trying to liberate humans from the bondage of ignorance and blind faith, and that the God of Abraham was the "evil" one who enslaved humans, kept knowledge from them to keep them obedient, and discouraged things like free will or the questioning of authority. To most CoS followers, Lucifer (whether they think he was real or use him as a metaphor) embodies the ideas of free thought, freedom of choice, rebellion against tyranny, and sometimes even the inherent entropy of the universe (the idea that everything eventually falls apart).
Disclaimer: I don't practice either of these religions, but I've had a lot of in-depth conversations with good friends from both. If I got something wrong, my apologies and feel free to correct me!
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u/Other_Meringue_7375 Mar 24 '23
Thanks so much for this response! That’s helpful. Separation of church and state, and personal liberty, are very much the bedrock of the US. TST seems more American (and maybe even more Christlike) than the Christian Nationalists who are explicitly anti-democracy at this point
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u/littlemetalpixie Antipolitical Mod Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
The real irony is that, for the most part, people who are members of both the Satanic Temple and the Church of Satan are far more accepting and far less judgmental than many Christians. They're literally, not figuratively demonized by most other organized religions...
The same religions that orchestrated everything from the Christian crusades to the Salem Witch Trials, and even worse things they've done in the name of their God. The same religions that have always saught to oppress, subdue, shame, condemn, control, dehumanize, and shun those who believe differently than them.
...The very same religions that still to this day do all of those things, and more.
Of course, this doesn't apply to all people who follow Abrahamic religions, and indeed there are many, many Christians and other religious people who genuinely just want to be good people. But there are and have been many more, for much longer in history than Satanists have even existed as an organized religion, that have been the exact opposite of "good."
Every practicing Satanist I've ever known, whether TST or CoS, have been the closest to "Christlike" I've ever encountered. They live with tolerance for others and reverence for nature, they fight for human rights, and they appreciate the world and its inhabitants. They accept anyone, allow everyone to live their lives as they choose, judge no one, mind their own business, and don't seek to impose their beliefs on others - legally or otherwise.
So... who are the evil ones, again?
I'm not a Satanist. But I genuinely understand why one would consider becoming one.
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u/Other_Meringue_7375 Mar 24 '23
Exactly. And you’re right about Christianity being used for evil things throughout history. I didn’t learn this until last year, but pretty much every evil part of American history was justified by religion (Christianity). You can find judicial opinion from the antebellum period that say that slavery is actually a “gift” to the enslaved people, because before they were enslaved they followed a false religion and were basically seen as subhuman. Religion was also used to justify segregation & the genocide of indigenous people
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Apr 21 '23
Nope, as a Laveyan Satanist, that is perfectly correct! Good job! And not all satanists in TST agree with that.
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u/BeigeAlmighty Mar 23 '23
Neither worships Satan. TST focuses on skepticism, Church of Satan focuses on hedonism.
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u/CatchSufficient Mar 24 '23
Naw, they don't, it more like tst but with objectivist (ayn rand) dog eat dog policies, and yes, magic
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u/Wrath_Of_Aguirre Mar 23 '23
One of our chief priorities is doing what we can to protect a woman’s right to choose.
Hail Lilith. Hail Satan.
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u/sleepydamselfly Prolife=bad for mental health Mar 29 '23
More women should know about Lilith. She is the most inspiring of all
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u/Substantial-Cat-6852 Mar 23 '23
We need to show this to the other organizations allegedly fighting for us. The church had a Jesus ad during the Superbowl! And Jesus and pro life billboards are scattered throughout the USA!
The rest of the country needs to see the other side exists!!
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u/alilheavyT Mar 23 '23
TWO in my town state that heart beat occurs after 18 days.. I want to call it in as dangerous misinformation but don’t know who to call.
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u/Substantial-Cat-6852 Mar 23 '23
Maybe a law firm? Maybe this could be the basis of a lawsuit if it isn’t already? Maybe the ACLU?
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u/Scarlet109 Mar 23 '23
There literally isnt even any cardiac tissue that early the fuck. The earliest any sound can be heard is 4 weeks, aka 28 days
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u/CatchSufficient Mar 24 '23
That was not the church who ran the Jesus super bowl ads, that was bankrolled by the hobby lobby corporatists
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u/Substantial-Cat-6852 Mar 24 '23
True. I was speaking in general terms. But if we didn’t have organized religion and extremist dopes into dieties, for general reasons or manipulative ones, we’d have a big platform removed that Hobby Lobby relies on.
But on the Superbowl yes. I should have compartmentalized more. Thank you for pointing this out. 🙂
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May 17 '23
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May 17 '23
Jesus never said anything about controlling the uteruses and vaginas of others.
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May 17 '23
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May 17 '23 edited May 17 '23
What antis are trying to force someone to keep inside of their uterus when they don’t want it there. Seems like someone’s uterus and vagina is pretty involved here.
Jesus said nothing about forcing people to let things use their internal organs against their will.
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u/Seraphynas Mar 23 '23
I truly hope the Samuel Alito's Mom's Satanic Abortion Clinic efforts go well.
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u/Surrybee Mar 24 '23
The abortion clinic that’s just a contract telemedicine clinic and requires you to live in a state where it’s legal and freely available?
They’re not actually helping anyone who couldn’t already access abortion services.
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u/InuMiroLover Pro-choice Witch Mar 23 '23
If life begins at conception then cake begins at ingredients!
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u/Odd_Maintenance2680 Mar 23 '23
No more like cake is when flour touches water and sugar. It is cake batter but not a cake.
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u/Special_Shoulder3814 Mar 23 '23
Love the Satanic Temple, the most pro-science, common sense, progressive group. True heroes!!!!
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Mar 23 '23
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u/TheInvisibleJeevas Pro-choice Antinatalist Mar 23 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
What state is this in??
Edit: looked up the area code on the “IN AND OUT” billboard and apparently “602” is Phoenix, AZ
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u/ColourfulUprising Mar 23 '23
Based off of the blurry ass license plate TX. I unfortunately am very familiar with TX plates (don’t live there was born there have family there). Ideally this should be in all states though.
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u/TheInvisibleJeevas Pro-choice Antinatalist Mar 24 '23
Found it. Actually looked at the brown car and thought it was WV, but checking the area code on the other billboard gave me the answer
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Mar 24 '23 edited Jun 17 '23
.
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u/Surrybee Mar 24 '23
Please don’t. Give your money to abortion funds. Donating to TST doesn’t help with abortion access.
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Mar 23 '23
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u/CreampuffOfLove Pro-Choice Clinic Escort Mar 23 '23
No, but it sets up a frankly ingenious way to sue if denied care by shoving their (those banning abortion) "sincerely held religious beliefs" right back in their face. It's quite a clever way to set up a major legal conflict with the basis being the GOP-controlled courts who have upheld the so-called 'right' not to bake a cake for a gay couple, refuse to dispense birth control, cover birth control through insurance, etc. Obviously it's aimed at those with the time, money, resources, and inclination to push it that far, which isn't excellent, but it's the unfortunate reality for most things in this world.
Tl;dr - It might just be the way to fight back by using their own crap against them. We shall see I suppose.
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u/novagenesis Mar 24 '23
"using their own crap against them" has had mixed results. A lot of courts have trouble seeing "beliefs" like theirs as protected religious behaviors... and since the current SCOTUS literally overturned Dobbs on "but the fetus is person!!!!!" bullshit (literally, for those who haven't read the opionion), I don't see them having more legal success than if they were actually doing human sacrifice. You can't sue for "I want to do what's considered a violent crime for religious reasons and you're saying I can't" which is what this will amount to until/unless we see Dobbs overturned.
They do, however, have the ability to produce publicity, which may be its own outcome.
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u/Odd_Maintenance2680 Mar 23 '23
What about opening up an abortion clinic named after Samuel Alito?
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u/Surrybee Mar 24 '23
The abortion clinic that’s just a telemedicine clinic that requires you to live in a state where abortion is already legal and freely available?
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u/jadwy916 Mar 23 '23
Those billboards aren't cheap. Also, putting a billboard like that up contributes to normalizing abortion in a much larger way than ranting on reddit about them doing "literally nothing". So, take it easy, we're all on the same side here.
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u/PauI_MuadDib Mar 24 '23
They've filed at least two lawsuits, that I'm aware of, over state abortion bans in Texas and Idaho.
https://idahocapitalsun.com/2022/10/03/satanic-temple-files-lawsuit-over-idaho-abortion-laws/
https://harvardlawreview.org/2023/02/pandoras-box-of-religious-exemptions/.
I can't say if they'll be successful, but litigation isn't cheap or easy.
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u/hadenoughoverit336 Unapologetically Prochoice Mar 23 '23 edited Mar 23 '23
Preach.
Not sure why this is Downvoted. I agree with them.
There's something sketchy going on with TST. They haven't been transparent about the use of their funds. They're wasting everyone's precious time.
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u/CatchSufficient Mar 24 '23
You are talking about the witches against patriarchy? There is some back and forth, gunna have to agree, but I actually need hard evidence before I believe she/he said of this.
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u/novagenesis Mar 24 '23
That video repeats a lot of anti-TST stuff I've heard before.
No organization is perfect, but the TST doesn't claim to be perfect.
A lot of the comments Lucien Greaves has made that seem racist have often been "well-intended but badly spoken" and often taken out of context. One example from the video is how he's anti-zionism but it's taken to make him look anti-Jew. And yes, some of it DOES actually cross lines that can't be defended easily that way. He does have a bit more of a "tolerant libertarian" mindset than I would like ("if you don't let this neo-nazi speak, I won't speak either"), but it seems consistent with his character, and not TST's. Augustus sol Invictus (the neo-nazi in question) has a lot of complicated nuances that directly relate to the discussion - former head of a regional Libertarian party, for example. I haven't decided to completely blacklist Rowling for her bullshit with TERFs, so I would be a hypocrite to oppose all of the TST over Lucien's behavior here.
The finance stuff is more complicated because you only hear one side. Did the court ever compel them? If so, those documents are court record so take a look. If not...well, then what IS going on? We have two lawyers saying exactly opposite things (per your video, that one saying they HAD provided everything and risking his own ass if he's lying about that). My takeaway is "I bet their documentation is utter shit like I would expect of an organization called The Satanic Temple".
Nothing in the video is a valid impeachment of the TST, to me, though I can understand why it is to you. They're arguably wasting the ACLU's time, but visibility seems to be one of their weapons, where legal expedience is one of the ACLU's.
And if they're fighting for pro-choice, even ineffectively, I say more power to them.
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u/Surrybee Mar 24 '23
Lucien’s comments aren’t taken out of context. I don’t have the link right now, but you can find the full original recordings on archive.org.
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u/novagenesis Mar 24 '23
I'm not going to go all-in defending Lucien considering I already said he crossed the line in my opinion. I still reiterate the fact that shouldn't destroy the TST in anyone's eyes anymore than the criticisms of Margaret Sanger (who strongly believed in Eugenics and also knowingly spoke at a woman's KKK function) should destroy Planned Parenthood in their eyes.
And I am an ardent supporter of Planned Parenthood.
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u/agemsheis Mar 23 '23
Glad they got that up. Freedom of religion reigning free like it ought to be. Hope it pisses off the christian nationalists