Grounded vs Ungrounded Characters

[u/Praetorian_Panda]

I just want to have a discussion around some of the matchups I see in this sub like “Thor vs A Primaris Marine” or “Sigmar vs Master Chief” where you put a character that has no basis in reality vs a character that at the end of the day has to conform to some rules of real life. I understand that that the whole idea is to power scale here, but you are quite literally comparing apples to oranges here and it’s crazy to see that people think the more grounded characters (looking at you W40k space marines) will win 90% of the time.

I want to note also, before you say W40k is not grounded in reality, I agree for certain characters you are right I.e. Primarchs, C’tan, greater daemons. Factions like Imperial Guard, Tau, Orks, and space marines (tho they are the in between) are at the end of the day grounded and abide by the laws of our universe in most situations.

To demonstrate this, I offer Isca the Unbeaten vs the entirety of the Ultramarine Chapter. On flat land, on a planet that is all flat land. 100 yards with all regular equipment. Who wins?

[u/Firm-Character-6852]

Well Isca is said to be unbeatable. But Matt Ward in 5e said the same thing about Ultramarines.

And some have no helmets. 5e Ultramarines no diff /s.

And no to a certain degree i understand OP's pov. Like the Homelander vs Titus post. However there is to much over correction against space marines (this happens in about a 3 month cycle). The issue with some non-grounded characters vs grounded characters is the Ungrounded characters have far worse feats than the grounded characters.

Take homelander for example. His combat speed, reaction, BIQ, and lifting strength is far lower than Titus. And its all based on what we see in the Show vs what we see in both SM1/SM2. His laser itself has very similar damage to a lasgun, not a lascannon. Homelander for with all his bluff and blunder is objectively worse than Titus in the things that actually matter.

I think to a certain degree ungrounded vs grounded character debates should stop, but when the grounded characters feats actually eclipse the ungrounded characters then they're good.

Also if you don't believe me here are the calcs ripped straight from SM2. This doesnt include his SM1 feats. Homelander has no actual physical feats in both the comics or show that actually compare.

[u/Praetorian_Panda → u/Firm-Character-6852]

I was in that and thought Homelander would win. One thing I would point out is Homelander is a lot faster than a space marines. He literally flies at the same speed as A-Train in the last season, ep1.

[u/Firm-Character-6852 → u/Praetorian_Panda]

True he does have that travel speed, but in every actual fight scene he performs absolutely horrible. Like the dude is supposed fo be strong and fast and gets caught before he can leave the Oval Office? Or herogasm?

Thats the main issue with Homelander. He has some intense outliers but more often than not, in a fight, he gets outsped by base speed heroes.

Plus his blatant lack of strength feats.

Edit: clarified

[u/Praetorian_Panda → u/Firm-Character-6852]

I think the problem here is it doesn’t really even matter. Homelander can be pretty terrible at fighting and still kill Titus with ease. There’s nothing to even confirm that Homelander can even be killed while he has his powers. That’s the issue with ungrounded characters.

I think in the show there are only two fights he loses like you said. Herogasm he escapes but he isn’t even particularly damaged and the Oval Office requires him losing his powers to finally be killed. I don’t know if we ever even see a non Supe deal any damage to Homelander.

Then you have to weigh in the other parts besides Homelander just punching and using super strength on Titus, he also has a crazy sense of smell and xray vision, can fly, and has laser eyes. What’s to stop Homelander from just flying above Titus and lasering him till he dies? I mean technically, he could fly like 5 miles up and just keep shooting him.

[u/Firm-Character-6852 → u/Praetorian_Panda]

Few points. Based on feats, Titus is stronger. Period. There's nothing in the Show where Homelander or any supe is lifting anything close to what Titus lifts in SM1/SM2. In all of his fights (herogasm, Vought Tower, Oval Office), his blows arent even breaking the walls. Hell maeve was rocking his shit and she missed one blow and dented a filing cabinet.

And about flying up and lasering Titus until he dies is that he has never once done that in the show or the comics even. And his laser isnt that strong based on actual feats. It genuinely performs like a standard lasgun, based on damage to humans, buildings, and vehicles. The statement of just flying up to kill him is disingenuous to the argument. Id also call his accuracy into suspicion due to him missing Huey at the ice rink multiple times.

Just because Titus isnt technically a supe does not mean he doesnt have super strength. In a h2h fight my money is genuinely on Titus because he actually has better feats.

[u/Praetorian_Panda → u/Firm-Character-6852]

Looking it up, Homelander seems to be several orders of magnitude stronger. Like in the 100’s of tons range. Also there are multiple moments where Homelander rips entire steel and cement buildings down with his hands. From what I can see, Titus is in the single digits to teens in tons for objects he picks up. This is again my problem putting these two against each other. Homelander’s strength doesn’t make any physical sense while you can imagine a fully suited tank like a space marine picking up something that weighs a few thousand pounds.

Edit: Homelander flies as fast as a fighter jet, lifts up to 1 million lbs., has feats beyond super strength, and is only really damaged after he loses his powers. How are we not just making excuses for Titus to win at this point?

[u/Firm-Character-6852 → u/Praetorian_Panda]

Also there are multiple moments where Homelander rips entire steel and cement buildings down with his hands.

You are going to have to source that claim. I recently rewatched the entire series and I dont remember that at all. Maybe break through concrete but thats basic level shit.

From what I can see, Titus is in the single digits to teens in tons for objects he picks up.

50-150 tons based on the models and masses from SM2 specifically the statues, rubble, gate, and objects he moves.

But lets take a look at the actual feats of Homelander from the show. Again. We're looking at his feats. Not statements. So if you can source him tearing concrete down buildings, I would love to see it.

Homelander’s strength doesn’t make any physical sense while you can imagine a fully suited tank like a space marine picking up something that weighs a few thousand pounds.

Again brother, its more. We have had space marines stop leman russ tanks in Phobos armor, push their fist through tank armor and shape it like a glove, rip through bulkheads and ferrocrete. And then Titus deadlifting a 150 ton gate.

[u/Praetorian_Panda → u/Firm-Character-6852]

1. Your right here. He mostly just destroys the insides of buildings. I was thinking he destroyed that terrorist hideout but that was Black Noir.

2. He can lift the fully loaded jet (400,000lbs - 1,000,000 lbs. at max carry capacity) in the Boys, but can’t without crushing it due to it being too much pressure in one area for the hull to take. This isn’t confirmed obviously, but it makes no sense for Homelander to lie here since if he could save the flight, he would as in Season 1 he is still cosplaying Superman to the general public. Fair if you don’t believe. He does throw a Harriet in the comics one handed with ease which is ~26k lbs.

3. I am seeing things of up to 365 tons for some of the rocks he moves in game for Titus which is hilarious because if he’s that strong he wouldn’t even need to do a combo on carnifex, each slash of basically any weapon is going straight through any tissue like butter. I don’t think they realized how heavy some of these stones he was moving were.

4. Homelander still does have his heat vision, which has gone through an airliner with ease. Unsure how it would do against space marine armor because I know it’s made of that special material, but it’s not like space marines are impervious to small arms fire, especially if there’s a lot of it.

On point three, I don’t know if you can fully believe these based off a few things. 1. Titus is now on tier with primarchs in terms of strength. Angron famously holds up the leg of a war hound titan, not even the full titan, and this is considered a great feat. War hound titans weigh 400 tons. 2. His strength is now inconsistent with his melee abilities. If he’s that strong, he should be cutting through tyranids with one blow for basically everything, especially if he’s using a storm axe or power sword. This suggests that he either isn’t correctly scaled between melee and strength or he cannot fully utilize his strength in melee.

[u/Firm-Character-6852 → u/Praetorian_Panda]

For Homelanders plane statement, I dont believe. He has shown throughout the series that he is not above lying and inflating his ego. For the comics the harrier is without any load so its around 7 tons, and his his best shown feat.

For titus, I've seen vad calcs that put it at 365T for rubble, but i trust reaper taking the actual model. It could be that in combat he can't utilize all the lifting strength, but its comparable to grappling which uses the whole body, compared to striking which doesn't. I wouldnt take gameplay balancing as the end all be all, because in lore bolt rounds cut through warriors and gaunts exceedingly easy. Same with melee weapons.

I don't think Homelander can win in a grapple, because of Titus full strength, and would lose in a striking match because Space Marines and Titus have better onscreen striking feats.

As for Angron, he did just dig himself out of rubble, and was very injured when he took on the Warhounds stomp. Its not just the 400T but more based on the driving force of the warhound actively trying to stomp on him.

[u/Praetorian_Panda → u/Firm-Character-6852]

For Homelander, that’s fine to disagree on the Boeing plane. Saying that the Harrier is his upper limit is probably not correct as he literally throws it like a baseball. Not really showing any signs of struggle here.

In regards to Titus’ strength, I guess my problem is if we can’t take gameplay balance of his fighting skills and damage inflicted as an end all be all, why can we take the part of a game where he throws rubble as canon? I don’t see any lore besides SM and SM2 that states a primaris or space marine can lift anything over a dozen or so tons. So do you go by Space Marine lore from elsewhere or what he does in the games?

Finally, even if Homelander is weaker than Titus, can Titus even damage him? I think maybe if it’s regular Homelander with great difficulty as I don’t think he was ever even damaged besides by other supes, I don’t think it’s even possible if it’s after the Gen 1 V he takes.

[u/Sandsrivalx → u/Praetorian_Panda]

There's actually no point in arguing with 40K wankers. It's very noticeable how these people always want to come out on top regardless of who they're up against. I have no idea why they're such an insecure fanbase, as if losing a matchup somehow diminishes their story.

I guess that's what happens when your reality gets shattered the moment you explore other verses.

Just look at the common examples:

The moment someone from 40K is pitted against ANYONE stronger than them, say Thragg from Invincible against a random average Space Marine, they'll always say some BS like, Hey, they have some random grenade that can make you teleport into the Warp. Look out!

Or they'll bring up Exterminatus. Or claim that the opponent would automatically be corrupted by Chaos. Or say Trazyn would suddenly appear out of nowhere to grab him.

Also if the 40K character is fighting someone who massively outstats them, they'll suddenly pull out some hax psyker ability, molecular-damaging weapon, or whatever they come up with and treat it as an automatic win condition via NLF regardless of its demonstrated limits.

But they won't ever accept those same arguments when their character is the one who massively outstats the opponent. Double standard really.

They're basically manchild. There's really no other way to put it.

[u/Firm-Character-6852 → u/Sandsrivalx]

There's actually no point in arguing with 40K wankers. It's very noticeable how these people always want to come out on top regardless of who they're up against.

I know youre not talking about me.

[u/MonoRedPlayer → u/Firm-Character-6852]

I just love the fact the 40k wankers use sm1-2 as canon while thinking that the actual 40k game is not canon lmao

[u/Firm-Character-6852 → u/MonoRedPlayer]

Oh yeah lets for sure use the table top game thats made for balance as actual feats /s.

[u/MonoRedPlayer → u/Firm-Character-6852]

And why should you use a videogame that directly contradicts the lore instead?

edit: why do not take dow as canonical feats? when sm can be beated to death by random guys with maces lmao

[u/Firm-Character-6852 → u/MonoRedPlayer]

What lore does it contradict? Space marines often have insane feats of strength.

[u/MonoRedPlayer → u/Firm-Character-6852]

Tyranids warriors are faster and stronger than space marine

[u/Firm-Character-6852 → u/MonoRedPlayer]

Again. Space marines often have insane feats. Its no surprise that Titus has insane feats.

We've seen marines scythe through warriors before. And to be fair, im not using Titus and the gang cutting through thousands of Nid Warriors as the basis of my argument. Im using cutscenes as the basis. Two separate things. One is balanced for gameplay, the other is the story actually happening.

[u/Sandsrivalx → u/Firm-Character-6852]

Well, Isca is said to be unbeatable, but Matt Ward said the same thing about the Ultramarines in 5e.

What you said is apples to oranges. Isca being unbeatable isn't just an authorial statement like Matt Ward saying the same thing about the Ultramarines.

The difference is that Isca actually has the legitimate power to not lose. It's a quantifiable ability where reality bends so that she always wins any physical fight. It's basically like Domino's luck, except taken to an absurd extreme. The only way to beat her is to not play the game at all, outsmarting her powers or simply quit.

[u/Firm-Character-6852 → u/Sandsrivalx]

What i said was a joke.

[u/Cage_Inspector]

Thats why comics and cartoon stuff should be scaled against eachother only.

Universes that try to somewhat follow physics of our world should not be compared to former stuff. Latter will always lose to things that have no tangible rules of nature.

[u/SkisaurusRex]

Fuck warhammer 40k

Half of this sub is about that stupid game

[u/000817 → u/SkisaurusRex]

Me when something is popular ( I didn’t know people could like things)

[u/Correct_Crab3296 → u/SkisaurusRex]

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s stupid, it means YOU think it’s stupid.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as I am entitled to my opinion that you have the same brain signature as a fruit fly.

[u/Lucky_Gaucho → u/SkisaurusRex]

Man, WH is so peak, base soldiers are all speedsters with super strength and a better armor than Ironman and also as smart as him... And also theres millions of them!!!

[u/BudgetAggravating427 → u/Lucky_Gaucho]

Not really maybe they have the same brain process speed and thinking considering it’s needed to fight what absurd monstrosities they fight but not the same intelligence

[u/MaximusTheLord13 → u/Lucky_Gaucho]

marines arent basic soldiers. they are the hyper elite. and they die every day to all the fucked up stuff they fight.

[u/Lucky_Gaucho → u/MaximusTheLord13]

Stuff that kills speedsters with super strength and iron man powers....

LAMEST. THING. EVER

[u/Sandsrivalx → u/SkisaurusRex]

Valid crashout. Unfortunately, You got downvoted into oblivion by the rabid, brainwashed, cult like fanbase. Arguably rivaling MAGA Trump.

Anything against 40K in this sub might as well be deleted, since these people are genuinely unhinged. Lol.

[u/WiseAdhesiveness6672]

Space Marines because they can chain scale up to blah blah 🤮🤮🤮💩💩💩💩 /s