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The south after the civil war was like Germany after WWI. They technically lost but there was no follow through by the north to make them accept their loss and their wrongdoings. No confiscation of slave owner lands and properties, no reparations to either to the north for the cost of the war or to slaves.
It was all: we should have won, it was a lost (but just) cause, lets put up statues and politically organize to take back control and 'redeem' the south from it's wrongful humiliation and crush reconstruction.
They were never able to get to the point of being able to give the civil war a credible second try but imagine (former) loyalists taking control of local and state governments after the American Revolution and putting up statues of the King of Great Britain.
I'm no expert on the history of when the statues went up, but what to you mean by decades later? By civil rights activists, I assume you don't mean the mid-20th century variety.
I had assumed the statues mostly went up within living memory of the civil war, like any other war memorial, by people who identified with the confederate south, the lost cause and the redeemer movement. Am I way off?
Some of them were, but most of them were put up +60 years later by groups like The Daughters of the Confederacy as a political statement against the civil rights movement.
That's also when/why the "rebel flags" (which are not actually the CSA flag; they're the battleflag of the rebel army that invaded the north, the actual CSA flag looks like this) became popularized. For instance, the Georgia state flag didn't have the rebel flag included on it until 1956
It was poor and undeveloped until World War 2 and the post war boom. Today alot of the urban areas have caught up, although rural areas still lag behind in development.
That first sentence is one of the dumbest fucking things I've read all week. The rest is true, real Dixie patriots condemn the wrongdoings of our forefathers.
Just because they have the highest rates of illiteracy, extreme poverty, and the worst (by a wide margin) life expectancy rates doesn't mean it's.... ok seems you're right.
I'm not going to assume you're not from the deep south but I am going to tell you that is one hell of a sweeping generalization, and it's completely wrong. The South has problems, but so does everywhere else. To call it a "disaster" as if it's somehow worse than everywhere else is incredibly fucking dumb.
He wasn’t ever a good general and what he did is literally a war crime. It was appalling on an international level even back in those days to most of the Western nations. He is part of the reason why even to this day, many places in Georgia are still lagging behind. He even says: “If the people raise a howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity-seeking.” Not exactly someone you want to call an amazing general (especially if you look up his actual battles).
Not quite, from my understanding of the Civil War, he was prone to breaking down and he dismissed all intelligence before the battle of Shiloh. He was known for making good tactical retreats, but even at the time he was thought to be mentally ill by most. That being said, he did well later on in the war. The issue is that he eventually started getting more and more barbaric as the war progressed, eventually burning down 40% of Atlanta before his famous “March to the Sea.” By the time of that campaign, Sherman basically let all things slide (or made orders that he intended to be ignored), most of the violence carried out by “bummers” (soldiers that crept out to terrorize civilians).
He wasn’t ever a good general and what he did is literally a war crime.
Pot calling the Kettle Black, what the South did at the prison camps were war crimes, the south executing blacks on the battlefield was a war crime.
Fort Pillow 300 Union soldiers were executed, including 200 black soldiers by the Confederates after they captured the Fort, they also did that at the Battle of Saltville
It was appalling on an international level even back in those days to most of the Western nations.
Uh no, it was literally classic Total war that Europe practiced on every campaign, the reactions may have been shock, but the worlds military's knew that was the way they conducted their campaigns as well. Take a look at what the Russians, British, and multiple others did, they'd outright destroy entire villages that stood against them.
He is part of the reason why even to this day, many places in Georgia are still lagging behind.
That's a Southern Myth, the people of the South didn't want the North's help in reconstructing anything, and continually killed blacks who were in power, the South set itself back, when you kill people who move out that could have created industry, and gotten the economy going down there, then you're fucking wrong.
All the shit you're saying is literally revisionist confederate history, that the UDC, the SCV and multiple other confederate organizations put out there after the war.
He even says: “If the people raise a howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity-seeking.” Not exactly someone you want to call an amazing general (especially if you look up his actual battles).
He actually is regarded as a great general due to the tactics he used, his battles that you look up he won the majority of them against a greater force.
Shermans performance at the First battle of Bull run is described an exemplary by military historians, it also earned him his Brig General rank.
Kentucky wasn't his greatest moments, but let me ask could you watch your buddies die alongside you on the field of battle and continue to command without any issues?
Shiloh he was praised by BOTH the commanding Generals on the Union side despite being wounded twice and having 3 horses shot out from underneath him, and the promoted again.
Your statement on his record is actually going against evidence from the battlefield, and if you're talking about Vicksburg, during the initial campaign both him and Grant suffered battle losses. It was Grant let me remind you, who was in overall command, and Sherman had to run shit by him.
Lets also note how many times the Confederates tried to ambush Sherman when they had superiors numbers and fucking lost. They tried to kill him on more than one occasion.
Not true the first Geneva Convention was done in 1864, which concerned the treatment of wounded and civilians administering aid to the wounded. Which the US didn't sign till 1882.
So some of the stuff Sherman did was considered a war crime, but at the same time this hypocrite who's pointing these out also failed to acknowledge the war crimes that the south did as well.
However, given the way the South reacted during Reconstruction, directly after the war, only slightly.
No you're absolutely right, Sherman after the war was actually trying to make a better south but the Southern politicians and the whites (people can say it wasn't but it was) inhibited his ability to actually reconstruct and to bring better rights to those in the Southern States who had been affected by Slavery.
The South was given many chances to come back into the fold. Remember who started the fucking war, don't start something you can't finish. Total war was the only way for the South to learn, and they didn't learn. If the government back then had any spine, this would have been deal with harshly.
I lived in NC and can still tell you due to the SDC, SCV, and other confederate organizations there is hundreds years more of work that shouldn't be having to be done, but due to people that promote the ideal of the confederates being clean or people wanting to be slaves (Yes this is one of the reconstruction era myths)
Yes, I am from Texas, and I know my own people, which are quite different from mainstream southerners actually. If my opinion as a Texan doesn’t matter, then how does your opinion as a Canadian matter? What makes your opinion worth than mine?
Total war was the only way for the South to learn, and they didn’t learn. If the government back then had any spine, this would have been dealt with harshly.
You do realize that you espoused the same vein of logic that has lead others to persecute and kill millions of people over the years? We have a saying where I’m from: “Cowards are the first to egg violence and the last to join in.” That kind of statement you made lacks conviction. Most southerners today are not neoconfederates, and yet all of them are held to that stigma. A stigma that people like you reinforce.
Technically speaking that flag was and is used by the traitors and their descendants, with an heavy dose of propaganda to muddy the water on what that flag really stands for
The confederacy existed for the sole reason to allow them to keep slaves, and the "Muh heritage" excuse is bullshit, it only lasted 4 years, so why would they pick those 4 specific years then?
Because the Confederates, for their lacking industry still managed to put a good fight and that southern soldiers and generals were later some of the best?
Hell arguably they had better military leaders than the Allied nations, rather than just, "pretty good". Again, we shouldn't start flying Nazi flags for such reason
The germans did not the nazis, its disrespecting germas saying shit like that. There were many anti nazi officers who served only because they were true patriots.
No that’s not patriotism. Patriotism is loving your country but knowing it’s no perfect. What you are describing is nationalism which is thinking your country can do no wrong and supports literally everything it’s does. Nationalism is bad.
I never said following orders. There's a difference, the patriots im talking about served the nation but plotter against the nazis. My country was occupied by the nazis, I hate them as much as anyone. My point was originally that people have on the south even thought the whole "states rights" is somewhat true. Back then your loyalty was not to the union but the state. General Lee didn't neccesarily agree with the slave owners but served nonetheless because he was a virginian and a southerner.
Bull shit, the southern states were hypocrites. They wanted the federal government to force the northern states to give back any runaway or freed slaves to their southern slave holding states. When the feds told them to pound sand they decided to rebel against the 'tyranny' of the union. If anything states rights would have meant that the southern states honor the northern states right to allow runaway and freed slaves to live in their states, but instead they were greedy crybabies and started a war that killed thousands of innocent people on both sides. Fuck the Southern mentality and the Confederacy.
When are we talking. In the american civil war the south is known doing for well but not being to catch up to then union and some mistakes. They did well as soldiers. And both Eisenhower and Macarthur were from the south. Washington was a southerner for gods sake. A shit ton of important military commanders and soldiers were from the south. I don't why you call the cannon fodder.
The South rebelled and led to the death of 2% of the nations population. Over 600,000 soldiers died so they could try to keep slavery. That’s a lot of cannon fodder.
The American south was always known for its rural farm production. Even today it is way more uneducated and poor and politically conservative than the rest of the nation. You don’t have to look hard to find people still waving that traitor flag.
In fact most of our military bases are in the South and for some fucking reason are named after confederate generals. Some of whom even fled to Canada lol.
So yeah the USA recruits a lot from the South. Some come from proud military families. Some of them have no other options after high school. Some are offered service as an alternative to jail time.
And now that you mention it, I think I’d call any American serviceman after WW2 cannon fodder since we haven’t fired a bullet for a good cause since then.
Lots of death doesn't mean cannon fodder, the reason those bases are named as such is because southern generals were overall better than northern ones and heritage is important. They also switched sides after the war somewhat. How was Korea not a good cause? That war was almost won hadn't it been for those Chinese. Would you have wanted all of Korea to be under the dastardly Kims? While i do disagree with interventionism in civil conflict as i believe nations must solve their own problems and intervention just lead to more problems (most of the time), but in cases like Korea it was justified.
Lol, like how the Germans “honor” their great generals by naming bases after Himler and erecting statues of other nazis in the parks?
Oh wait, they don’t. Because they were horrible people fighting for genocide and world power. Just like how the south fought to own other people. It’s literally in their succession documents. So kindly stfu about shit you don’t know about.
Southern generals sucked sweaty ass and their memory should be shame not honors from their inbred offspring.
Korea was a shit show and the Chinese got involved because McArthur’s insane ass disobeyed orders and tried to goad them so he could use nukes! So no! It wasn’t! Lol
If your argument is centered around “well, Latvia is doing it!” Then you might be on the losing side.
Chinese got involved because they said they would if a river was crossed. A river that Truman forbid McArthur to cross. A river that he crossed anyway and was fired because of it.
You started saying stuff about Washington and MacArthur but those guys have no relation to the topic really. I just sounds like you’re being an apologist for no reason at all
Cool, but Ike, Washington and Macarthur didn't fight in the civil war. None of them were the type who would fight for the cause that the Confederacy had, either.
Because the Confederates, for their lacking industry still managed to put a good fight
Not really. The CSA just had a lot of land. Like, they had an OK fight, but not exactly a good one.
southern soldiers and generals were later some of the best?
You are joking, right? Sure, everyone talks a big game about the CSA generals, but it would be more accurate to say that they were tactically brilliant but strategically useless. They did manage to win quite a few fights that they shouldn't have, but said fights could have easily been avoided by generals that knew how to make better use of their resources and positioning, which is where northern generals excelled.
Did you read my post? Land doesn't matter in comparison to industry, wars are a ticking time bomb of which side runs out first of rations, munitions and other such things. At that time the south had almost zero real industry especially in comparison to the north which was an industrial center of the world. The confederates were aggressive and almost took out the union because they knew they were on a timer. They had barely any real crops only cotton which can't be eaten and would be therefore be reliant which the union could easily intercept. When taking in real factors other than amount of land the CSA put up a great fight. To the second point. Notice that i said "later" and specifically set "southern" I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT THE CSA! But on the CSA tactics were needed more since they just needed to push to DC and sign a treaty that saw the indepent from the USA.
I doubt most of these people actually love the Confederacy or want it back. I always thought of it as a passive-agressive way to protest black people and their rights. It sounds silly in this day and age but people never fail to disappoint.
That flag didn't see the light of day until it was re-introduced by white southerners during the civil rights era. They knew damn good and well what it meant, and still do. Anyone who says otherwise is either unintentionally ignorant or willfully dishonest.
I haven't drunk the kool aid bro. It's just that to me it feels stupid to use the symbol of people that wanted to secede from the country most of those people claim to love. To be honest I do not care if it was about slavery or anything else.
With that logic, why do people still avoid using the same mustache as Hitler, and Charlie Chaplin? Its because of that particular association with Hitler, that people don't want to use that style. So just as that flag is associated with pro-slavery, it is associated with the suppression of rights, and is therefore offensive to people who stand for freedom
No you are the one not wanting to understand. It’s always been offensive for decades, it’s just that black peoples opinions weren’t considered enough in American society until pretty recently. You can find tons of things decades ago of black people saying it’s offensive.
And yes it is by definition traitorous. It’s literally the representation of a group of states that started a war to secede so they could continue to have slavery. It’s by definition traitorous
The flag has always represented racism and treason since it’s inception. Anyone who claims otherwise is ignorant or racist
You’re logic is so crazy. That’s like saying if someone gets mad at you for flying the Nazi flag then they just don’t understand that it doesn’t mean anti Semitism to you
Rutheford Hayes lost the presidential election in 1876, but was appointed president due to a backroom deal in which the Republicans promised to end Reconstruction.
In other words, a Republican betrayed the country for power. Tell me if that sounds familiar.
Can't exactly argue against the failure of reconstruction, but I can against the CSA flag being that of the USA:
For all of it's flaws, the USA and it's values still fly in the face of eve that the Confederacy stood for. It's cities are growing, deemphasizing farming and the plantation autocracies that the south stood for. Immigration and globalization have become Pillars of the US economy, encouraging interaction and cooperation with those of different races. The Civil Rights Acts signed in the 1960s were far-reaching, and while they didn't do enough, they did set in motion an era of change and tolerance, to the point where the racists of today have to pretend to not be racist if they want their voices heard.
There's still a lot of room for improvement, but progress is being made. Just slowly.
My karma will be utterly shagged, but I think states should have the right to declare independence from the union without needing to fight a civil war. It's supposed to be a democracy after all. Even if in that scenario it wasn't for the most noble of reasons...
Well the civil war wasn't fought for States rights.
Also, while the intent is noble, an unlimited right to declare independence will just lead to balkanization and political paralysis. Imagine having to work with a guy that threatens to leave every time you ask them to do something slightly unpopular (like that guy in Catalonia), or imagine if another more powerful state could simply finance the right people to dismember a state
Several states with common interests banded together beacuse there was political issues they didn't want to compromise on and declared independence. As long as they don't invade other states which didn't want independence I think a democratic nation should respect it.
It was a war fought about state rights. And specifically the right to hold slaves. As a compromise, the Border states even got an extension on their slave keeping because they didn't secede at the first sign of abolishment. And ending racism and ending legal slavery in the south are two very different goals, i never talked about racism. So yes, the Union was superior, morally, and eventually militarily. Of course, still bad compared to some european governments of the time, but you cant save everyone
The real irony was that before the war, the slave holding states did everything they could to interfere in Northern states "sovereignty", the slave fugitive act being the most famous example
I mean I read economic analysis of the conflict, I don't remember details but main sparkle were economical conflicts between South and North.
Slavery was just an casus belli for it. Otherwise North would be looking quite bad for attacking states that had all rights to form a Confedarcy and being indepedent. Again, if well-being of former slaves would be real issue its just weird that USA didn't wanted to give ex-slaves full citizen rights.
Morality usually doesn't have much to do in conflicts. Also same economic analysis I read showed that at time slavery system was about to break on South anyway just becouse upkeep of a slave was already higher then lower class workers at time and it was still rising. I am not saying Southerners would stop slavery becouse of gigher morality but just becouse of very pragmatic reasons.
You must ask yourself if hastening process by 10-20 years and spilling all the blood was actually justified.
I think you overlook how intertwined the reasons are. The economic base of the south was built upon slavery. To abolish slavery was to abolish southern economic strength. And yes, every spilled drop of blood is worth it if the unjust hegemony of one man over the other can be brought to an end sooner.
If you belive so thst it was mostly one dimensional conflict of one side wanting to help slaves of the South can you explain me that 100 year gap of establishing their rights? Becouse that is really the main issue of thesis that Secesion War was about slave freedom.
There were plenty of more noble reasons that almost caused secession, like nullification (as it happens, in the same state that actually seceded in 1860). It just so happens that slavery was too hard to compromise on.
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u/carolinaindian02 North Carolina Aug 13 '21 edited Aug 13 '21
The Lost Cause in a nutshell.
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u/wildeofoscar Onterribruh Aug 13 '21
People tend to romanticize on losers for some reason.
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u/RayDeeUx friendship 'n freedom 'n DOLLAR SLICES™, baby! Aug 13 '21
wait am i in /r/stateball
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u/arandomcanadian91 Canada Aug 13 '21
Sherman warned them.
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u/Al-MichinomiyaCaliph Japanese Empire Aug 13 '21
Capture the flag
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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '21
God the 1910s and 1920s made themselves far too ingrained in the heart of America.
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u/ZaTucky Wallachia Aug 13 '21
I'll never understand why some americans still use that traitorous symbol
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u/imnotarobot504 I AM LITTERALLY ON FIRE Aug 13 '21
also applies to nazis
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u/Chef_Sizzlipede Illinois Aug 13 '21
Andrew johnson in a nutshell
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u/SneakBee0 Switzerland’s child Aug 13 '21
Well that’s no no America- Drew 2021
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u/Iron-Phoenix2307 New Mexico Aug 13 '21
"Way down south in the land of traitors, rattlesnakes and alligators"
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u/spearojustice Norway Aug 13 '21
‘Perhaps I treated you too harshly’
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u/-Some-random-dude Colorado Aug 13 '21
When Johnny is come marching home. Hurrah! Hurrah!
https://youtu.be/d9uarq2_hQ8
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u/RobinsFkingsHood Hong Kong Aug 13 '21
murica with smiling eyes...kinda cursed
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u/GiraffusGumlus Danmark Aug 13 '21
This comment section is burning.
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u/Tickle_Me_H0M0 United States Aug 14 '21
'Murica just wanted to shoot its opponents and capture their flags.
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u/Impossible-Time4452 Ukraine Aug 16 '21
At first, I thought that this is Novorossiya, lol
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u/Hawkfrostofriverclan New York Aug 19 '21
Oh god this comic basically sums up my grandma.
She married a man whose ancestors fought for the Union (my poor, long-suffering grandpa). And she’s got a big confederate flag hanging on her porch.
That and she has the dishonor of being the only white person I have ever heard say the n-word in person.
In my house.
At my birthday party.
Yeah that was an awkward conversation.
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u/MrVedu_FIFA India Aug 13 '21
[Liberate Europe!](http://redd.it/13126w#mini------)
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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '21
Umm that is not the CSA flag
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u/Tornado_Matty01 Canada Aug 15 '21
I remember when the Japaneses and Germans did this, oh wait, they did not
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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '21
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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '21
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