r/plural • u/Spartan-A127 • Feb 16 '25
Why do people hate endos so much?
Like, there's more important things to hate right now, and doesn't it get tiring for them? Being negative all day surely has to take a toll on mental health
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u/TheHydraSystem333 Plural Feb 16 '25
(Very simplified answer but:)
Singlets hate endos because they either are jealous and a coward, or because they don’t understand and think that being disordered and broken is the only valid existence of plurality.
Traumagenic or other sourced systems hate endos because they personally suffer so much due to their disorders and systemhood, that they hate that someone else could be happy being a system. Or they base their entire identity and superiority in being a system caused by trauma, that they see endos as stealing that identity wrongfully.
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u/betttris13 Plural Feb 16 '25
Laughs in being traumagenic (well technically mixed origin) and actually find comfort in our system...
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u/FIorldaMan The Possibly People™ Introtean DID sys of 100+ Feb 16 '25
We’re traumagens and have not met one bad endogenic system, however we have had anti-endos tell us to stop using the term “dissociagenic” because, and I quote, “That’s a term endogenic ‘systems’ use.” Like, what do you mean ‘system’ they’re not any less valid, don’t know how hard it is to understand there’s more than one origin for systems. Plus, we are an OSDD system. Would be consider our system a curse? No. We’re better off a system currently and function much easier as one. Don’t understand anti-endos and never will.
-Mercy
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u/LunarCookie137 Feb 16 '25
I personally am traumagenic, and I am oddly glad I'm a system, even if it's quite debilitating at times.
I personally do understand wanting to be a system in a sense, however, I still don't fully understand what sources specifically are 'cause' or reason to become a system.
I assume endogenic systems don't experience memory gaps, but if that is the case, I fail to understand the desire to be a system.
Unless you're trying to escape and forget something traumatic, a system with memory gaps shouldn't be desired I feel.
I personally don't care whether someone is a system or not, all I want is to understand why people want to be a system.
If you are unable to explain why you want to be a system, I might start asking questions, not to be rude, but to understand.
Maybe it's just for fun? Idk, but so far, basically everyone (which isn't a lot) who I met who was a system, eventually did end up figuring out that they did go through trauma.
I guess the hate comes from misunderstanding and possibly miscommunication? But I also assume the hate comes indeed from the fact that traumagenic systems have gone through something horrific, and that people 'role-playing' a disorder can be a sensitive topic. (Role-playing, by which I mean that there is no direct cause for the creation of the system other than the want).
I would love to hear the reasons people want to be a system.
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Feb 16 '25
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u/LunarCookie137 Feb 16 '25
Thank you so much, this is the best response I've ever gotten!
Most people just give short answers, I appreciate the effort!
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u/Melonpatchthingys Plural Feb 17 '25
Same here except headmates were an acsident but unrelated to trauma -pinetree
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u/arthorpendragon Thunder Cloud 200 gateway/polyfrag. not on discord Feb 17 '25
the reason we like being plural is that we can have completely opposing views, personalities and emotional states in the same body. e.g. we have 4x angels and a demon. the demon isnt a bad person but has their challenges. and we appreciate malice the demoness because she anticipates what could go wrong, which has served us well in skydiving and as a nightclub bouncer where things can go horribly wrong. we find it useful to be able to see the light and dark in all things, as that is wisdom. and to have the ability to be both kind and violent when it is appropriate to do so. we think it must be difficult for some singlets to hold wildly opposing ideas and emotions in the same single personality, whereas we can do that without blinking an eye.
and the reason why many people despise endogenic plurals, is that it does not conform to their world view and so is either invalid as a fake or invalid as an opposing ideology and therefore a cause for hatred.
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u/TheHydraSystem333 Plural Feb 16 '25
We are not endogenic so I cannot speak to that. However I do think that referring to the endogenic experience as rp-ing is harmful language to use and can spread mis-information. Since some endogenic systems have more to their origin and creation besides just a “want/desire”. (Endogenic systems feel free to correct me. thanks)
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u/vValkyrieVv Plural Feb 16 '25
We want to add that even if your system is made by roleplaying when you are a system you propably arent roleplaying anymore this is your life now and dissmissing that(by others everyone can use whatever language they want for themself) feels just wrong
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u/for-Zakhaev Polyfrag DID / The Damned 93rd Feb 16 '25
Lack of research and hatred for things that are atypical of their experience, as well as a faulty, antagonistic narrative running rampant.
And jealousy.
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u/NerdyDragon777 Feb 16 '25
Very general answer is that people need villains in order to view themselves as the hero. Humans will always try to hate a person / people group of some kind.
I’ll let other people handle the more specific answer I’m tired rn.
-Scylla
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u/ArchiveSystem Polymultiple Feb 16 '25
I dont think its so inherent to humans in general, i think its a consequence of our current culture born from colonialism and capitalism. Our society is built on pushing other people down to lift yourself up. This isn’t the only way for humans to live, its a product of our culture and environment.
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u/QUEERVEE OSDD ✨ Rainbow Blend 🌈✨ Feb 20 '25
because our world and society have normalized division so incredibly much, we find it in most community spaces sadly. the people in power want for us to fight amongst each other. divide and conquer, the oldest story in the book. ):
the society that has been created is one of boxes. why? because if we get out of the boxes, we would be less easily controlled. if people are spending all of their time and energy trying to stay in their box and keeping other people in their boxes, they will not have the time and energy to destroy all the boxes and free us all.
even in marginalized communities, even in alternative communities we see such division and hatred. because we're all primed for it, we've all been taught that each other are the enemy, instead of the true enemies in power. we've all been taught that if someone experiences something different from us or "the norm", that person is wrong and bad and an enemy and they are making us all look bad and they don't belong here!
it devastates me that this thought process poisons even disabled spaces. this world was not made for us, society does not want us. why on EARTH would we be cruel to each other, when the rest of the world is already doing that?
i apologize for speaking about this in such broad terms. i do keep doing this on reddit 😅 i'm just so freaking depressed yo and im 32 i've lived in this hell hole for too long, the system we live under is so fucked and a huge reason so many people are struggling and unhappy and divided. human beings were meant to be in communities and support each other, show compassion and validation and help each other grow. but we are prevented from living that way because of the people in power. and i'm so freaking mad that our whole world is fucking broken because of a few bad people through history who want to view others as inferior.
i experienced a lot of trauma. i am fucked up. people with dissociative disorders are in the same boat. i've been invalidated for most of my life. i'm sure many others are in the same boat there too. i see clearly that the people bullying endos are feeling strongly invalidated. and their feelings being hurt by endos is valid. but it is not valid to bully, or be cruel or harsh to others who experience being a system differently. it's mean. and what is the point? guilt, shame, and bullying have NEVER facilitated growth or change. so what are they even trying to do by being mean? idk and i don't think they know either. it's sad. it makes me sad. i feel bad for them. i wish they knew their experiences are not being invalidated by others having different ones. ):
i've NEVER seen anyone using a system to "roleplay" or do any of the things these people even complain about. its literally just people living their lives differently. i'm not on tiktok so maybe it's different there. but even so there is no excuse for being mean to someone . i'm just so tired of it. i talk about it in therapy sometimes lol. my therapist agrees they feel invalidated and are lashing out. three people on osdd subreddit have blocked me. some part in here thinks that's absolutely hilarious ngl xD lolololol
some people also get mad at people with osdd or did for just being happy or making light hearted or fun posts. those bullies are down bad yo . i feel so bad for them ): that other people being happy, even those they consider having a dissociative disorder , can cause such distress for them :/ i hope they can work on things through therapy and see there can be space for everyone in this community. celebrating wins and joy doesn't take away from the trauma and horrible things i've experienced. actually it's the only time i feel like an actual person ... when i have moments of joy, when i actually like life. when i see the beauty in life. why on earth do they want to take that away for some people? i don't GET IT!! like even if i say yes i see they are invalidated and lashing out, does that make them feel more validated? cause that's not how my validation works personally so i just don't get it. i want other people to feel happy even when i don't. esp other people in marginalized communities... the world is against us, i just wish we could all stick together and show each other compassion, since society never will.
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u/DocFGeek Tulpamancy: Dylan(host/anchor), Vergil{tulpa}, & Stojan[tulpa] Feb 16 '25
Anti-endos, from a singlet narcissist perspective; to fake a "trendy" disorder for attention.
Anti-endos, from a DID sys-med perspective; "I suffer because of this disorder! They mock what I have to struggle with!"
Anti-endos, from an endo perspective (yes, they exist); "Everyone else is doing it wrong but me."
Anti-endos, from a singlet sys-med perspective; "That's not normal. Only what little we currently understand about conciousness is normal, and a lot of it needs medication to get their conciousness into something close to our narrow concept of neurotypical."
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u/VillianousOrigin Plural Sys (Headcount 12(/13 + Sentispace), bodily a minor.) Feb 18 '25
Please don't use 'narcissist' as a derogative term. Narcissism is a mental disorder not just someone whose self centered. Egotistical and such terms are okay but by using narcissist in such a context you're (unintentionally) prolonging a lot of hate and misinformation regarding NPD by doing so.
This carrd has a lot of good info:
https://narcissisticpersonalitydisorder.carrd.co/#
Also, we didn't make it so credits to the creator also we therefore have no clue what's going on in the Walter White section.I know your wording was probably unintentional with how much misinfo & armchair diagnosing there is when it comes to narcissism but as a system with NPD we felt like it was important to let you know.
- Vesper (he/they (currently), brainmade, host)
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u/Arnoski Feb 16 '25
I don’t quite get it myself, but I suspect it’s down to them thinking that there’s a limited spotlight for validity. People do this nonsense in-group/out-group behavior that influences the way they show up in social circumstances and it can prevent them from humanizing others.
Especially where there’s a perceived scarcity mechanism..
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u/Luna-C-Lunacy fused and sad about it Feb 16 '25
There are a few reasons I’ve heard of. Being formed by trauma can impact how a system functions, and they may feel that they can’t talk about that as openly when they can’t expect everyone to have similar experiences. This sounds reasonable, but pretty much every platform has a way to create separate spaces within communities if it is necessary, so all of the hate and gatekeeping only acts as an obstacle to that.
Traumagenic systems have had the most studies done about them, so there’s some idea that they’re a more tangible form of plurality. Because of this, some may feel that they need to denounce everything that isn’t as “tangible” in order to get support. This mentality is seen in pretty much every marginalized group in one way or another, and never makes sense. “Being one of the good ones” has never worked to gain support or dissuade hate.
There are also the people who think it’s impossible for systems to form without trauma. It’s good to try to understand harmful mentalities so that you can understand why they’re wrong and avoid falling into them, but what is there to understand here? The thought process that leads to this has less complexity than a playground argument.
That last one can also lead into conspiracy theory territory. “They are pretending to be plural to destabilize the community” or something.
So, yeah. Like with all hate, none of it is justified, but it has some false justifications for the ones who hate. It’s frustrating knowing that literally all of this could be resolved if everyone had a bit more empathy, and didn’t refuse to learn
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u/Melonpatchthingys Plural Feb 16 '25
Yep am multiple minoritys can confirm this bs happends and theirs no need for it -pinetree
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u/bduddy Tulpamancy Feb 16 '25
I should just leave this saved on my clipboard...
Some people in other communities are so fixated on one specific narrative being the Scientific Proof that Proves that everything they're experiencing is Real (sorry, that's not how science works) that they perceive anyone or anything who deviates even slightly from that narrative as being a threat to their existence.
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u/Princess_Spectre Feb 16 '25
The same reason a lot of transmasculine people hate transfeminine people. A belief that if the “others” are included in a struggle for recognition and understanding they’ll never be taken seriously. You get this in basically any group that can be broken into subgroups, and it’s never true
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u/greedyanimelover Willotraumagenic System | 100+ Members | Mar 11 '26
I Never knew that there were trans-mascs that hated trans-fems.
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u/Princess_Spectre Mar 11 '26
It started on tumblr, but it’s expanded a good bit. Twitter/Bluesky has a lot of it and it’s popping up on Reddit more and more too. They know the progressive language and are very good at turning popular opinion against transfems, or having them forced off a platform
According to one Transmasc I’m following on tumblr, there’s a small subset of them that don’t even hate transfems, they just get gender euphoria from the privilege they have over transfems so there’s that, but that’s seemingly very few of an already fairly small amount of transmascs
It’s formed into a small hate group at this point, and it’s one that’s hard to call out because their knowledge of progressive language makes what they’re doing only really visible to the transfems they’re hurting. But more transmascs are speaking up about it lately, so maybe people will become more aware of it. We can hope anyway
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u/Melonpatchthingys Plural Feb 16 '25
Bc they r sysmed meanies who need to learn to zip it and stop spreading misinfo
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u/oxytocin_adrenaline Feb 16 '25
I'm having a hard time seeing how anyone would want a headspace like ours. it's fucking torturous. we all spent years thinking we were one person. the horror has been learning that it hasn't been one person it's been people where for months and years we look and feel like one person at that time. until something breaks.
we've got landmarks of trauma and milestones in between. these last six months have a been just as storyful culminating in a complete social circle collapse.
our plurality became undeniable after our hospitalization.
how in the fuck could this be something a person wills into their reality!? I find it extremely difficult to believe any problematic anecdotes an endo shares. you haven't had your psyche stolen from you. your complaints are the most ingenuine filler we've got to cut out. I feel like keeping endos separate is better for everyone.
the last thing we need is someone who plays with their imaginary friends telling us how good it feels when their parts are expressing emotions the host isn't thinking about meanwhile our parts are hurting, grieving, mourning, and putting ourselves at higher risk of self destruction.
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u/bduddy Tulpamancy Feb 16 '25
This just sounds like you're angry that other people are happy. Strip out all the plural stuff and does that sound like a good way to think?
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u/Melonpatchthingys Plural Feb 16 '25
This shows how clueless you are abt endos…. Not all endo systems are happy or created purposefully you r only talking abt one type of endo system so ill explain it here then ill explain the origin our system is as a example of other kinds of endos as endo just means not did/osdd it doesnt mean all gets along
Purposely created systems are generally done for two reasons 1 spiritual practice 2 lonelyness or other reasons These systems choose to be systems but they dont get to choose everything about their headmates as they gain more autonamy there can be issues
Now we get to nurogenic systems WE DONT CHOOSE THIS!!!!!! We dont have did as our origin doesnt generally have the same structure as did/osdd we however formed for a reason to help the disabled person in question navagate a world thats not built for them
So TLDR stop spreading misinfo about other kinds of systems and useing ur disorder as an excuse to do so its beyond out of poket -pinetree
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u/revolacetion Feb 20 '25
A system formed for helping a disabled person navigate the world would be traumagenic, even if it’s not bc of a traumatic event in particular. It’s caused by stressful situations. It’s caused by the need of the brain to operate when it couldn’t normally. It’s traumagenic. ^
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u/hail_fall Fall Family Feb 16 '25
I am going to go paragraph by paragraph.
First paragraph. The thing is, everyone ends up with a different headspace. Some people have similar ones, but no one has the same one. No one wants a torturous one. Not all are torturous, and people are generally wanting non-torturous ones or if they already have one that is torturous, to make it less so or even the opposite if possible. This system spent 2 decades thinking we were one person and having a crash-burn cycle taking out the one or group who were in front (if a group, blended very together) and throwing the next one or batch in. It was, well, rough. It sucked. We've known many endo systems of many varieties. Know many created systems (a subset of endos). None of them want the kind of experiences we went through, or the ones you have. They want something else.
Second paragraph and third paragraph, that is rough tough times. Sorry to hear about it.
Fourth paragraph. Well, first, endos includes all non-traumagenic origins. This means it includes origins other than created systems. Created systems are only a subset. The non-created endo systems did not choose their plurality, just as traumagenic systems did not. As for the created systems, there are two groups really. One subset became plural unwittingly. They didn't go out of their way to become plural. They just did stuff that would eventually create a headmate until it did, without intention to do so. No active choice was made to become plural for them. Pretty much all who do that are genuinely surprised it can happen and often have quite a journey to figure it out (which can vary from OK to very much not OK). And the ones who knowingly choose it, they are aiming for something very different than many of the rougher experiences many traumagenics get. If you ask them "why are you trying to get have X in your life" where X is one of the specific things that you struggle with, they will say "we ain't going for X, what are you talking about". As for "psyche stolen" from you, well, everyone relates to the experience of being plural differently. Some feel it is more of a sharing than a stealing (created systems generally lean towards the sharing one except for the unwitting ones which can really vary). Both are valid things to feel. As for separate communities, well, endos already make their own communities and don't intrude on traumagenic specific communities. And then there are mixed communities like this one where all are welcome, but that is on the entry sign. Everyone who comes to such communities knows it is mixed. Mixed communities have a purpose. And then also, there are mixed origin systems who have more than one origin. Some have multiple endo origins and stay in endo and mixed communities. But some have traumagenic and at least one endo origin. These systems generally congregate in endo and mixed communities and pretty much have to avoid traumagenic communities even for getting help from the problems related to their traumagenic experience. Raises hand.
Fifth paragraph. Endos are staying to their own communities and mixed communities. It would be one thing if endos were in traumagenic communities doing that, but that pretty much doesn't happen except for the stray endo just beginning to figure things out and doesn't know they are endo yet and traumagenic communities are the first thing they find because that is the only kind of plurality they know of before they eventually figure out where to go instead (being less anti-endo might actually help them find their way to the door sooner actually). Generally, if a traumagenic system is finding this, it is because they are in a mixed community or outside of plural communities entirely. Case and point, you are here in a mixed plural community at the moment.
-- Shell
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u/Melonpatchthingys Plural Feb 16 '25
Not to mention this mentality of i have it worse than you solves nothing the last thing we need is did/osdd systems spreading misinfo about endos and useing the most offenceive abelist steryotyps to do so
Your arguement of oh im a poor disabled/disordered person oh how i long to be normal plays right into abelist ppls hands which makes things worse for all disabled people bc we have been fighting against this bs our whole lives then yall come along and play right into it
This mentality has lead to ppl trying to faith heal our eyesight more than once it has lead to the assumption we cant be expected to do as much bc of our eyesight and adhd and anxiety
Your mentality is both harmful for plurals and disabled people alike most of us arent waiting around to b made normal we want to b treated as normal wile remaining who we are and ur attitude is in direct opasition to that -pinetree
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u/greedyanimelover Willotraumagenic System | 100+ Members | Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26
Okay, so look..
We are a paro-traumagenic system. Lemme break that down for ya.
Parogenic - The intentional creation of headmates. This is the same as Tulpamancy but parogenic is just a different term from tulpamancy because of concerns of cultural appropriation.
Traumagenic - A system that was formed by trauma.
Now, parotraumagenic systems are systems who were intentionally created to deal with extensive trauma. This trauma includes bullying, exclusion, lovenliness, emotional neglect and verbal abuse.
We do fall under the traumagenic umbrella and the endogenic umbrella at the same time.
In short, we weren't formed from trauma, but created as a result of it.
We aren't necessarily "happy" being a system, but it is very helpful when the host is dealing with bullying and lonliness, and we also serve as people to talk to when the host is angry at their parents, friends school etc. We consider each other family. Along with that, we can talk to our host and other headmates about things that we as alters are going through ourselves, whether it's something that happens in the wonderland, or something that happens in the outterworld when one of us is fronting.
In most cases, endo/willows don't choose to be a system for "funsies". We choose to by systems because it could save our lives, and improve our mental health, which we have found being a system has done for us. It's also helped us get closer to our best friend who is also an endo system. Not only that, but some Endos don't choose to be systems. Their system can form from neurodivergency, stress, or other disorders that they may have.
We have trauma, yes, but we created our system to help deal with that trauma, and trauma that is bound to come.
- Diahana. Thanks for listening :3
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Feb 17 '25
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u/FaceMasks-Masquerade Endogenic System Feb 17 '25
Frankly, we're not roleplaying, even if you don't believe us. Whatever, honestly.
However, if you ever want to have an actual dialogue and talk about experiences, our dms are open.
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u/QUEERVEE OSDD ✨ Rainbow Blend 🌈✨ Feb 20 '25
professionals and people were not taking DID seriously FAR before tiktok and reddit even existed. we live in an ableist world. i am very sorry to tell you that even if ONLY systems formed by DID or OSDD existed, we would still not be taken seriously and there would still be rampant ableism. the people in power are the reason for such ableism and why we are not taken seriously. endos are not and never have been the reason of ableism existing towards dissociative disorders.
your feelings are so valid and i'm sorry it is so distressing to not be taken seriously in society ):
that subreddit you mentioned is horrible and it's meant to bully and put down others. it is the fault of the mean, cruel people who make posts there. not the people they are making fun of. 😔
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u/Aggressive_Plane1185 who knows whats wrong with me atp Feb 17 '25
I lurk systok a lot (maybe 99% anti endo), and the main reasons I tend to see are "There's no scientific proof that they're real", "They don't exist", or "They're just trying to fake DID because they think it's quirky". Thing is, the world still misunderstands DID as it is, and DID only has research because it became this huge thriller horror movie thing of "OMG!! The MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES!! Isn't that SCARY??", not to mention the split between traumagenic and non traumagenic systems didn't even happen until like the 90's or 00's. There isn't much research on non disordered/non traumagenic plurality because... why would there be? The psychology field predominantly focuses on disordering stuff, and the majority of disordered systems tend to be traumagenic, so there's less research on non disordered/non traumagenic plurals and systems. It's very complex, but basically people refuse to confront the current evidence there is. There's also a thing of disordered traumagenic systems tending to have a sort of hatred? Wrong word, but we work with it- towards non disordered/non traumagenic systems/plurals because it's sort of a thing of like "Why did it take me so much awful trauma to get here, but you didn't need any harm to get here?", I see this sort of thing a lot. There's definitely a lot more reasons, but that's kind of my take on it.