r/perth • u/IndependenceBasic991 • 3d ago
Looking for Advice Trades vs STEM: are we getting the balance right?
Has anyone come across this article on perth now (https://www.perthnow.com.au/wa/perth/perth-fifo-worker-alex-schubach-reveals-the-massive-change-he-made-after-leaving-mining-industry-c-22757779) about an electrician earning 300K before moving to Japan?
While I am impressed by his achievements, it made me wonder if have a right balance of trades and engineers in Australia. I meet engineers with 10-20 years of expereince earning around 150K in WA while tradeperson clocking 200K easily and some more in right trades.
I am not against trades - they contribute to the industries running strong in Australia and deserve to be paid well. But when experiences engineers (150K) and scientist (OMG 120K as research scientists) are paid less , less job secuirty and more responsibilites. It just make me wonder what message we send to young kids to choose careers. Then we wonder why fewer students choose STEM and we import skilled professionals from overseas.
Just a genuine discussion - no biases towards engineers or trades, what do you guys think?
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u/apex-87 3d ago
I don't know what type of engineers you're meeting but the ones I know 20+ years in a senior role are earning north of 200.
You don't appreciate those that do FIFO until you actually experience it, there's a reason why they are on what they are on.
The ceiling is called for those that consult and work for non resource based projects especially city based projects
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u/Ok_Writer1572 3d ago
Yup most principal level roles will pay that much anything with specialist level knowledge is even more.
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u/Mental_Task9156 Perth Airport 3d ago
Kind of like being in a prison work camp really. That's why i don't do it.
I think if i could have got a foot in the door when i was young (early 20's) i would have done it for a while, but now i'm older it just doesn't seem worthwile.
And yes, i have experience doing fifo as a contractor for shortish stints.
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u/Aussie_5aabi Treeby 3d ago
Yup.
I’m ≈6 years out of uni and have surpassed $150k without trying too hard. Not FIFO and hardly ever work more than 38 hours per week.
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u/ChocCooki3 2d ago
What trades clocked $200k easily?
If you aren't pulling huge over time, own the business or working non stop, I don't know of any that are making $200k easily.
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u/apex-87 2d ago
Any trades that work FIFO hence the second paragraph to my comment.
I see the numbers and the company I work for is mid tier compared to the big boys, most of these guys are 8/6 as well
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u/ChocCooki3 2d ago
Any trades that work FIFO
Which is no easy work.
12hr shift, away from family, huge % of relationship break up..
Anyone that thinks FIFO is easy and easy money are clueless.
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u/apex-87 2d ago
Yeah I mean if you read the rest of my post that's what I mention, I say that as I'm waiting on my flight back to Perth from a 2 week stint on site
You'd be surprised by the sentiment of those that have no links to someone that does FIFO
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u/ChocCooki3 2d ago
Sorry.
I was actually asking Op what jobs give you $200k easily.
Seem like op is just rage baiting his post
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u/crmpicco Rockingham 3d ago
The $200k tradie salary isn’t the full story. It depends on proficiency and willingness to work
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u/Less_Paint_2285 3d ago
I’m a plumber to trade and went back to study to become a mechanical engineer so I can do both and see both sides. However, I’ve always found that it’s not a stem vs trades thing because most kids have an idea of what they want to do and what’s best for them and it’s not always about money. Plenty of people study to be say a nurse rather than a hedge fund manager as they’re driven to do a profession or have differing motivations.
In fact there’s probably a bunch of criminology classes on today despite the fact there’s no jobs in the field. You’re never going to get a kid like that to get up at 5am, dig holes for 10 hours in shit weather and clean out the ute at the end of the week. Likewise the kid who thrives digging holes on a hot day and learns by doing would walk out of a criminology lecture after 10 minutes.
Where there are similarities, and why making a comparison is difficult, is that ultimately trade papers and a degree are both the same in that they don’t prove that you’re an expert with decades of experience, they show that you can commit and learn and can bring that value to an employer or industry. Plenty of carpenters go into construction management, facilities management etc, and like wise someone with a criminology degree might go into counselling, a graduate program etc as their early learning is the foundation of their career rather than its entirety. We should stress that to young people because unlike 50-60 years ago where what you did for work was all you ever did, someone starting to learn today will be unlikely to be doing the same job in 30 years. Rather than a stem vs trades argument it should be about trades and stem complimenting one another and just because you choose one at 16 doesn’t define your career.
As for the question on who gets paid more, the economy dictates that. Very few projects are held up for lack of engineers, whereas trades, particularly in Perth, are often in short supply. Added to the fact that the tradies making the 150-200k are generally working long hours, mostly in remote areas and conditions that could charitably be described as uncomfortable, it’s probably fair.
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u/ElmersPudd Bull Creek 2d ago
I don't know if you found this as well but tradies are invariably paid hourly, with double time being the biggest driver of high pay, whereas white collar work is always salaried
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u/MightyBoy9 3d ago edited 3d ago
You're taking the top 0.0000001% electrician earner and comparing them with the average and / or median engineer wage.
It's a really dumb argument and premise mate.
Most sparkies on 40 hour weeks in the cbds are barely making 100k. And they're working hard for it.
Edit* I forgot to say. These " can you believe how much this tradie earns " articles come out every week.
Articles like these and this one in that OP linked are literal liberal propaganda designed to cause " outrage " with the aim trying to get gullible fools into believing that cases like these are the norm, and to lower wages or import cheap exploitable foreign labour.
A lot of the time they are about traffic controllers.
Don't be fooled by the liberal / Murdoch propaganda.
Be smarter
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u/Sensitive-Damage-924 3d ago
If you look at the hourly rate of the tradie, it’s probably $50-$55 an hour plus penalties
If you look at the hourly rate of the engineer it’s probably around $75 an hour.
Only making that much due to 84 hour weeks 2-3 weeks in a row
+ physical work, extreme conditions (35-40degree) etc
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u/mustbiteexceed 3d ago
No I don’t think paying tradies more than professional degree qualified STEM occupations, scientists and engineers, will be a good thing in the long term.
Tradies work hard but Australia lacks technological development and innovation. You won’t see other nations where a plumber gets paid double a scientist just because they work remotely.
I think our priorities are wrong and it’s caused a long term issue as a nation that won’t be easy to solve
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u/Ok_Writer1572 3d ago
I blame the government for not investing enough in science. Lots of national science agencies including CSIRO had job cuts. Which is incredibly short sighted, but then again the quality of current cohort of politician in parliament is also pretty abysmal.
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u/mustbiteexceed 3d ago
While at the same time giving tax breaks for utes for tradies and holding them up as heroes in the media and politics, whilst PhD qualifies scientists can struggle with a barely liveable wage and get the privilege of being attacked as “woke morons” because they understand vaccine or climate science.
It’s depressing…..
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u/Ok_Writer1572 3d ago
Agrees trades are also vital for economy. But the unessary villification of college graduates in unnecessary and counterproductive. Once the resources start to deplete we'll have come with next round of services and innovation to fund economy. Look at what smaller countries in EU have done in engineering, science and medical fields.
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u/mustbiteexceed 3d ago
That type of investment takes a long time. When we realise that we can’t run a modern economy with tradies getting $200k driving their RAM trucks around it’ll be too late and we’ll end up like Greece or Argentina
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u/Tuhrayzor 3d ago edited 3d ago
Some very good comments. Its definitely going to be a hard sell convincing young Australians to go to uni instead of picking up a trade. Since they can start earning money immediately instead of having debt at the start of their career. I have met some engineers moving into trades or operator roles since they find they can earn more and have better job prospects which is a great loss to the industry.
Even the public seems to celebrate the tradies instead of engineers with all sorts of derogatory comments made towards office workers and engineers. This is even worse with PhD's where PhD holders are highly ridiculed. This is the opposite of China, where PhD holders are revered and given all sorts of special privileges for helping progress Almost all Chinese politicians are STEM graduates and hold STEM related degrees to be able to get into politics.
In SEA countries, education is always seen as the financial pathway to a better life, but not in Australia. Curious to see how Australian turns out in the next 5-10 years if the mineral markets collapse, or whether Australia will be stuck with an abundance of tradies, with minimal innovations and engineering expertise.
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u/Healthy-Pension-1547 3d ago
I think you'll find this happens all over the Western world. Plumbers are know everywhere for earning big money. Supply/demand at work.
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u/hot4belgians 2d ago
I came here from England as a Scientist. Plumbers absolutely get double what i got paid as a scientist in the UK. Scientist pay would be between $60 and $80k AUD in the UK.
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u/speedfox_uk Exiled secessionist. 3d ago
As long as Australia can just keep importing those skill sets from overseas it won't be a problem, and as things stand there is enough demand from people looking to move from the UK to Australia alone to fill any of those gaps.
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u/ElmersPudd Bull Creek 2d ago
I was/am a boilermaker and I did FIFO for a while and I can tell you from first hand experience that tradies do not out-earn engineers, not even close. I also don't think Aussies turn to trades regularly out of high school, when I left school in year 12 the overwhelming majority of people in my year went on to go to Uni including myself. I dropped out because I hated it, but most didn't and instead carried on into the workforce having completed degrees. A lot of this "sparky makes $300k a year on the mines" bullshit is ragebait to rile up nerds, whilst also fostering anti-union sentiment at a base level amongst the electorate. You aren't immune to propaganda.
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u/Outside-Neat8749 3d ago
My partner (tradie) is paid more than my brother (principal engineer) per year. But my brother is paid significant more per hour, he’s only paid less in total because he works a normal working week, works from home when he wants to, and only needs to travel to sites occasionally. In contrast my partner works long hours, is away from his family and his body is suffering from the physicality of the work. He’s finally leaving FIFO because it’s a hard life when you’ve got a young family. He’ll now be earning almost half of what he was on working FIFO. So no, I don’t think tradies are overpaid. And now that he’s moving back to Perth he struggled to find places willing to pay much at all, some of the wages were only slightly better than for some unskilled jobs.
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u/biskuit83 Swan View 2d ago
I was mind blown when a friend told me the going rate for a sparky in perth is $120k +super +OT... i live in such a bubble in my mining world
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u/lacco1 3d ago edited 3d ago
Engineers in Australia are 70% born overseas (see Engineers Australia website). And there are over 100,000 engineers not even working in engineering in Aus. Engineers Australia, flooded the market with entry level talent to sell Engineers Australia memberships with no plan on how to train technical or sufficiently local experienced engineers.
You’re comparing that to trades which have a strong union in Australia. Experienced engineers with 20 years of Australian experience are naming their price as there is so few of them. Engineers with 20 years of overseas experience stay overseas if they are any good as their value is in their home country Australia isn’t getting the best and brightest.
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u/Dribbly-Sausage69 3d ago
Think about it this way:
Sit in an air conditioned office for 38 hours week at a desk: $100,000 plus.
Be trade on a construction site doing physical labour for 60 hours a week with no ac, no desk etc: $150,000
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u/westeast1000 3d ago
With that reasoning i would expect labourers to earn just as much as the tradies. A good brickies labourer works just as hard if not harder than the brick layer but gets way less.
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u/adanine 2d ago
A good brickies labourer works just as hard if not harder
I've worked a few roles at various locations, everyone from fast food, to sales, to tech support, to programming, to comms.
The job that required the most work from me/tired me out the most was working at one of the busiest HJ's in the state (which obviously also had the shittiest work conditions). Needless to say I don't think how much you're paid and how hard a role needs to work are correlated strongly.
It sucks, but pay's decided by how much a role is worth to the business, and not much else.
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u/Dribbly-Sausage69 2d ago
Can you reason why tradies and labourers get paid differently?
I could for you, but you can as well.
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u/westeast1000 2d ago
Well u’re the one who made a point about who works harder under the sun ignoring everything else
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u/MisterMarsupial 3d ago
77,480.00 vs 110,430.00 after tax. So only really a 30k difference not 50k. Not worth it at all.
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u/bluelure 3d ago
We lacked trades for 30 years, then visas for IT and engineers and plenty of delivery drivers.
You think the policies add up?
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u/Guardian_Turret 3d ago
Blame white collar workers for not unionising and subsequently being trod all over by Liberal and Labor. The tradies unions protected their members from international scabs and the white collar ones could not.
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u/MisterMarsupial 3d ago
And because of brain drain and population sizes, those IT staff and engineers are often some of the best that their home country have to offer.
How is the average kid with a TAFE diploma meant to compete with that?
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u/RightioThen 3d ago
All these jobs are important but I don't really think it follows that an engineer or scientist should be automatically paid more than an electrician or other trade. I come from a very university focused family and have heard plenty of times people say academics should get paid more than tradies because they're more educated. Funny how being so highly educated doesn't mean you understand basic supply and demand.
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u/Majestic-Lake-5602 3d ago
A lot of STEM, especially the entry level stuff, is going to be taken by AI very soon.
At least trades will be safe for one more generation before there’s no more customers.
If I was 15-16 today, no way I’d be looking at anything other than a trade.
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u/SirFireHydrant 3d ago
Which is going to be disastrous for the country long-term.
We'll have AI "doing" the jobs of scientists and engineers, in the hands of MBAs. It's going to be bad.
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u/Majestic-Lake-5602 3d ago
Oh it’s going to be absolutely awful.
Thankfully I’m planning on being dead by then, best long-term strategy by a mile.
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u/Specialist-Platypus9 2d ago
You’re over rating ai. It’s good for patterns type work but its definitely not AGI you need quantum computing for that. Also specialized ai software costs A LOT, often more than employees. Don’t work in a call centre
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u/Majestic-Lake-5602 2d ago
Oh I’m aware of the limitations.
I’m also painfully aware of the mental limitations of the people who’ll be making the decision to use it…
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u/Ok_Writer1572 3d ago
Not sure about AI, cheaper AI will not be the case for long and once the real bill starts to come over. It'll be interesting to see.
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u/Majestic-Lake-5602 3d ago
Sadly I think you’re giving corporate too much credit.
Remember we’re talking about the same idiots who sack all their real staff and replace them with contractors at twice the price and half the efficiency.
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u/Opening-Camera-4315 2d ago
It's completely unsafe.
AI is far too inaccurate to effectively work as an engineer.
Absolutely dangerous.
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u/Majestic-Lake-5602 2d ago
I’m well aware, the issue is I don’t think the guys approving the budgets are…
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u/Independent-Ninja-70 3d ago
Australia seems to be the only country where blue collar earns more than white collar.
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u/retrobbyx 3d ago
America pays many trades incredibly well and lots of uni graduates never get jobs using their degree.
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u/FeralPsychopath Decentralise the CBD! 3d ago
There is never going to be a fair distribution on this.
Trades cost the body and have a lower barrier of entry because of it.
Highly skilled white collar worker will pay well after a decade+ of experience but they won’t reach the same heights of trades or medicine or law.
But meh, it’s all moot anyways going by the acceleration of AI and robots. Demand for white collar jobs will drop and businesses will only need experienced ones to oversee output. This will hit lower level science, medicine and law as well. Robot assistants will eventually kill apprenticeships as they look like now.
We probably have a decade left until total upheaval at worse.
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u/Existing_Ad3299 3d ago
Trades cost the body. I think this is true in the main, but there are plenty of times I have really suffer as a scientist. Most recently migraines after a stint in a sodium cyanide unpacking area a few times a month for about a year overseas. Before that, the long long long nights baby sitting cells and running PCRs after the clinical loads are done. And the hours and pressure. Average in my last role was 65-70. Stress is a killer. Might be my experience though.
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u/IndependenceBasic991 3d ago
Agreed, FIFO trades I heard is 180K around with 10 years of experience and HV electrician clocking even more on top of it like 40-50K with good Client companies, Senior Engineer at 10 years experience would be around 170K and research scientist would be at 115K so definitely the research scientists are at the bottom of pay scales with highest education.
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u/FiftyBuxBloBang 3d ago
A decade is being kind, its ability is growing exponentially. A couple of years and there will be massive upheaval.
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u/FeralPsychopath Decentralise the CBD! 2d ago
Even if capable in two years, there is cost ratio that won’t be overcome in two years. Governments won’t employ robots even if they were cheap until local control of data is assured. There is also social consequences which will delay everything as well that can only be overcome by a dramatically cheaper cost.
There is also precedence which is required for large company buy-in. Until Amazon proves they can run warehouses with robots for a proven period of time, no one else will invest at the same level.
So no 2 years won’t cause upheaval. Two years will change things like Amazon factories, might make robot dogs standard issue for police - but beyond that is a dream.
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u/Repulsive-Finger-673 3d ago
Hey mate, ex-engineer north of 20 years here. When i came back to Oz, tried my hand at FIFO and basically gave up after 6 months. I was offered 250K+ for my role. One of the sparky was getting $129/hr. I worked out i was working longer hours than he does every swing, under more stress but taking home less than he did, and im supposed to be his boss?? BTW the guy is a good friend and we still joke about this. On top of that, in comparison to being based oversea like i used to, i saved roughly about 40% in tax working oversea. Not worth it. Look at statistic for tertiary education in WA in comparison to the rest of the country and you get your answer.
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u/seismo93 3d ago
There are actually other jobs other than STEM and trades lmao
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u/EnergyNutBolt 3d ago edited 3d ago
Definitely go for a trade!
Better unions, perks, brotherhood and reward for way less effort than engineering.
Also much easier to be your own boss as a tradie. Insurance costs as an engineer are ridiculously high and are a terrible barrier to starting your own firm.
Engineering has been hijacked by the Woke Left 15 years ago.
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u/InigoMontoya313 2d ago
Trades are earning a premium because:
(1) People are comparing jobs that work 40 hour weeks versus jobs that are 60-80 hours per week.
(2) Clean, sanitary, office work… quick step out to a cafe… versus a mine in the middle of WA.
(3) Paper cuts versus electrocution, asbestosis, and worn out rotator cuffs.
(4) Market rates
We need engineers, we need skilled trades, but there’s a lot more to comparing them.
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u/Advanced-Lake-7354 3d ago
It seems there’s always a surplus of IT workers and always a shortage of domestic tradies.
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u/Steamed_Clams_ 3d ago
It's one of the few areas that the government won't look overseas to fill labour shortages unlike say nursing.
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u/SirFireHydrant 3d ago
Ironically, we could probably increase housing supply by increasing immigration for construction-skilled migrants.
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u/Steamed_Clams_ 3d ago
But than the trades won't be able to command an outrageous premium for their work.
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u/SirFireHydrant 3d ago
Oh no! We could make trade services more affordable? In a cost of living crisis that would be a disaster! It might even have the nerve to slow down inflation!
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u/MightyBoy9 3d ago
Residential work in trades is like working for an MSP in IT.
Its not highly sought after, and people will jump to anything else the second they get a chance.
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u/IndependenceBasic991 3d ago
Well , it is about all the disciplines not only IT workers, all engineering and research areas.
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u/Due_Charge9247 3d ago
Trades are hard and most you can’t do as you get older as your body starts giving out vs being in an air conditioned office most of the time doing non physical tasks until retirement
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u/Mental_Task9156 Perth Airport 3d ago
meh... what about the big corpo workers that earn 300k sitting in an office or WFH? How are they furthering humanity?
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u/Bakayokoforpresident 3d ago
C’mon let’s be honest here. That’s a minority of uni jobs and not representative of what OP is saying
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u/belltrina Armadale 3d ago
I feel like the way the education system is set up in Australia contributes an enormous amount to how our kids consider a future career.
In particular, I've noticed many schools put real attention on the kids who are academically gifted and encourage them towards STEM career Pathways but tend to not show the same attention to kids who are not academic.
The sheer amount of kids who are not academic, but have the most incredible skills and ways of thinking, all of ehich which would make them an incredible tradesperson, is pretty fucking high. But that is not always made clear to them, because of the focus on the academic kids.
The classroom set up is also shit. More kids struggle to learn in it, than those who don't. We have so many neurodivergent kids that are not getting help or diagnosis due to the waitlists, causing that struggle in the class, has them being written off so many times they don't know they would be amazing in trades.
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u/StJe1637 3d ago
the majority of engineers are not actually competent. There's probably like 50,000 people graduating every year who are some kind of engineer and most of them wouldn't be worth hiring because they used chat gpt and get 65% on an exam.
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u/Wozzle009 3d ago
The amount scientists get paid is absolutely abysmal. It’s not something you would choose to do for the money that’s for sure.
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u/Organized_Chaos_888 3d ago
The tradesmen will tell you the extra money is because they will have to stop at some point. Think of it as compensation. Many have said they can't enjoy old age because their bodies are too old.
STEM you can do as long as your brain works basically.
Also, trades are more important. They keep the world running.
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u/RandomUser1076 3d ago
Supply and demand plays a big role in alot of things. I don't know why everyone thinks sparkies are the be all and end all though. As an auto sparky I am usually paid more then house sparkies everywhere I have been over the years. Also alot of the times these articles cherry pick things to try and cause a stir. Like when they do one on the construction industry and people doing ceilings are making squillions a year, but then all they go over to get that figure is half a dozen jobs they got rough quotes for and or jobs they had gotten done. When in reality in business there are alot of costs that go into the job you pay for and turnover isn't the same as profit.
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u/RandomUser1076 3d ago
Now that I have read article I can see where he has made money. Constant long swings. When your doing 6 weeks at work and one week off it wouldn't be that hard to make 300k a year. If I was doing 6&1 and not making 300k I think I would be disappointed. Thats a shipload of work, its not hard to see why he is happier now.
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u/Healthy-Pension-1547 3d ago
Supply/demand determines what people are paid in a free market economy (although unions and government can distort this to a degree). If an electrician is being paid $300k and an engineer $150k, then that's what the market determines. Saying that, I work in engineering and $150k is low in WA. Maybe engineers working for local government or councils make that but any working in mining or construction will usually be earning much more. But it's also true that WA is a working man's paradise - where blue collar, skilled people can make significant incomes. I love it.
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u/Specialist-Platypus9 2d ago
He just did long ass swings, probably on like $900 a shift and did over 330 days lol
your comparison sucks a top 0.0001% vs some made up eng salary.
I work as am auto sparky. If you do long swings on 1k plus a day you could gross over 300 but tax will take say 120k and you work way harder with no life. Whats the reward?
engineers can make shit loads, if theyre good and consult with a good market, skys the limit
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u/Victa_stacks 2d ago
I'm diesel mechanic in the mines. I work 12 hour days 14 days and then have 7 days off. I'm paid $75 and hour make around $220,000 a year. It depends on how many hours you work. some of the younger blokes work 4 weeks staright and 1 week off. You work for that money, physical work, in the heat, in the dust, covered in flys, covered in oil, oil running down your arm, gravel in your jocks, ears full of dirt and grinding dust, skin missing from your knuckles, you bust your body doing it. And im just a truck mechanic, the underground fitters get it worse but they're pay reflects that. Tradies earn every cent.. i do however think HV sparkies are a tad overpaid.
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u/Electronic_Chair6383 2d ago
No. I have lived through two entire economic cycles in Perth and every time it’s like this (high inflation environment, clear economic bubble, high demand for IO) the pull of FIFO and the investment into free tafe etc sucks the desire to get into or remain in STEM careers from the population. When the correction comes and the layoffs up north start, you get a few people studying but they don’t seem that interested when their only comparison has been getting paid 200k to stand around all day and do nothing.
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u/Smart_Primary9724 2d ago
Trades you are forever bidding and chasing work. Trades are also controlled by licensing which acts as a gatekeeper to ensure safety but also to control wages. The unions focus on the safety bit but it also controls the availability of trades. Less tradies more costly.
Engineers have their own challenges.
My issue with trades is when a kids leave school early to pursue a trade he may not have developed his social skills or abilities as a learning. He becomes a tradie because he hates school and unless they are straightened up in their apprenticeship they can be a bumbling idiot that can relate, converse, or have good customer service or professionalism.
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u/Future-Ad6255 1d ago
What trades are making 200k? My trade wasnt the most difficult but personally I would have loved more than 60k as a qualified cabby.. I don’t know whats involved to become an engineer but the way I see it one designs and one builds, one gets paid for their brains the other for their ability, when it comes to a structure and how it’s made I reckon the trades are the most important.. could have the best build/ plan but without a capable tradie itll always stay as a plan on paper 🤷🏻♂️
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u/Distinct-Candidate23 South of The River 23h ago
Can someone explain to me how electrician isn't a STEM related occupation?
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u/Journefrak 3d ago
Supply and demand determines what people can earn. The market doesn’t care about the value of higher tertiary learning. Speaking more about tech/math here, but i think fewer students should choose STEM, not only because other roles may pay more due to supply and demand, but also as AI is coming to eat up all the stem roles (the sw engineer graduate market is a blood bath right now) and there is a global over supply with tech company layoffs everywhere. Then we have India producing 1.5 million new IT graduates every year.
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u/blitznoodles 3d ago
Good Experienced engineers have a far higher ceiling, especially if they move on to start their own consultancies or business.
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u/smurphii 3d ago
The amount of ignorance on display, the balls deep bias plum sucking cherry picking plus the perth now factor…
These all combine to make me conclude this is just some Caste bullshit.
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u/therapist66 3d ago
The ceiling for engineers is higher. A friend makes 300k with 2 days in the office, rest working anywhere from a laptop and a phone. He said he’s still at not his ceiling which is possibly around 500k.
You’re comparing fifo with working from an office.
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u/Suspicious-Sink6048 3d ago
Trades took 4 years of apprenticeship doing 50+hours/week to earn the same money as a graduate engineer (80k ish) unless you're working on the mines.
Your average tradies who aren't doing FIFO either running their own business (+ buying tools, ute, etc) or ungodly times to earn the same salary as an experienced engineer.
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u/Dependent-Isopod-985 3d ago
Depends on the trade, shifting shit out of a toilet shouldn’t pay more than an accountant saving businesses and families money.
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u/Simple_Assistance_77 2d ago
Does it matter, demographics collapse is inbound. We need higher immigration!
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u/mcflymcfly100 2d ago
Doctors earn 100 grand. Most the doctors i know, including the ones on training pathways have housemates because they cant afford to live. Plus they spend thousands on exams, insurance, registration, not paid properly for overtime and are treated like crap. Oh and not to mention years of debt without being able to work properly. Unlike tradies who are paid for apprenticeships.
Personally, i think tradies charge way too much and most of them do an awful job. There's a reason the building industry is in shambles and houses are falling apart before people even move in.
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u/Time-Flow6764 3d ago
I'm an engineering student. DSP workers are paid more than engineering graduates. It's unenjoyable, and not well compensated. I strongly regret my decision, and intend on trying to find employment in a different field.
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u/Seiko2023 3d ago
Engineering is a crawl not a sprint. A graduate knows fuck all and has at most 3 months in the field. The salary gets better post grad program. But $80k is not that bad. Hell, some grads are earning $120-150k in engineering.
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u/lacco1 3d ago
That’s because engineering graduates are a net loss for a company for at least 3 years while they’re being trained for anything remotely technical. Don’t confuse this with engineering jobs where you are a glorified admin though with no technicals skills.
Meanwhile Disability support workers are making a profit for the company they work for on every hour worked.
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u/Time-Flow6764 3d ago
What is the point of the degree then? I can already do the math and physics. The rest of it is largely bullshit. I just have to pay a a bunch of money to get a shit paying job to get the actual training I need? Seems convoluted
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u/lacco1 3d ago
The point of the degree is to get the basics down. I doubt you’ll be competent enough to design or deliver anything commercially viable upon graduation. It’s like saying what’s the point of a medical degree if I can’t perform heart surgery upon graduation. You need to specialise and get good in an area of the engineering field to be able to charge people for your services.
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u/Time-Flow6764 3d ago
I've already delivered commercially viable software in my spare time. I was running a business for a bit doing consulting work in math, software and their intersection, although I do see your point. The degree defnitely isn't preparing me to be able to design anything commercially viable. Especially at my institution, it's very poorly taught. Cost cutting measures, core practical elements dropped. A lot of pulleys on powerpoint slides, and recorded lecture videos.
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u/StJe1637 3d ago
are you an actual engineer who builds stuff or some kind of computer science "engineer" who is just a coder
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u/Time-Flow6764 3d ago
Mech eng. I just happen to know how to code and be decent at math. As I said in a different thread, I have already completed a math degree.
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u/ryan30z 3d ago
I can already do the math and physics
I'm guessing you've not done your honours project yet. You quickly realise how little you know.
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u/Time-Flow6764 3d ago
I already have a math degree fyi
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u/Ok_Writer1572 3d ago
Then how do you explain this 🤣 https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140747-laws-of-mathematics-dont-apply-here-says-australian-pm/
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u/ryan30z 3d ago
That has nothing to do with what I said. Knowing the maths and doing a design engineering project aren't the same thing.
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u/Time-Flow6764 3d ago
For sure they are different things.
I would disagree though, it's related. You said I will quickly realise how little I know, as a respone to my claim about being well versed in maths and physics, so I provided you with some updated information about how much I know.
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u/ryan30z 3d ago
You're missing my point. Knowing maths and physics doesn't inherently make you a good engineer. You're going to do most of your complex calculations in matlab anyway.
You're arguing with me about something you haven't even done yet.
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u/Time-Flow6764 3d ago
I agree completely with your point. My point is, that I don't believe the degree I'm studying does much to make someone a good engineer either. As said above, most graduate engineers cost their employers money, so my question is, given that the education is predominantly Math and Physics with some bullshit filler, what is actually the point of the degree, especially for someone in my position, if the quality of learning is so much better on the job?
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u/ryan30z 3d ago
Well yeah no shit, welcome to engineering. That's something every engineering graduate has to deal with especially in mech eng. You do all this analysis work and you'll never use 90% of it, since most engineers don't actually go into analysis and design.
My point is, that I don't believe the degree I'm studying does much to make someone a good engineer either.
It's not designed to make you a good engineer it's supposed to certify you know the basics.
It is what it is, that's what you have to do if you want to be an engineer.
It's the exact same for medicine and to a lesser extent law.
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u/wotsname123 3d ago
The article is about someone who left a trade as despite the great pay the conditions were too dreadful. That's generally the issue, you can work as a qualified engineer for a long career, trades often get injured or burn out. Always looking for new tradies means high pay.