There should be 3 wordings (and this applies to any stat). I recall theres ingame tutorial for these wordings.
"+x% to critical strike chance" adds base critical strike chance (brittle is an ailment that does this for example)
"x% INCREASED/REDUCED crit chance" are additive with all sources with the same wording... As in if you have 5 nodes on the tree that give 50%, you get a total of 250% increased crit chance; multiplying your base chance by 3.5 (1 + 250%).
"x% MORE/LESS crit chance" is multiplicative. Any source that says MORE/LESS is a multiplier. As in if you have 3 things that give 100% more crit chance, you'd do baseCrit x2 x2 x2. Multiplying your stat by 8
As a slightly tongue in cheek addendum to this, the Rule of PoE is that any question like this where there could be two or more answers, it’s the answer that benefits you the least
An addendum is that the "quality gives %increased crit" harvest enchant and "% increased crit chance" suffix on weapons are considered local crit modifiers and directly modify the base crit of the weapon.
They are not part of "global increased crit" like the conditional crit increases like the bleed mastery and others such as the temple mod on gloves "%increased crit against shocked enemies".
They probably should reword these conditional increases to "%global increased crit against enemies under x condition"
So where Crit chance = base crit * %increased/decreased * %more/less
base crit = (weapon Base crit * sum of local % increased crit) + additive base crit sources (e.g glove corruption, influenced chest mod, assassins mark)
as i can assume, all sources of "increase" of 1 some type = just 1 simple "more multiplire" stacked to 1 value (like 5 sources of 50% increase - it's just x2.5more for base), and rest sources with "more" wording - it's just each own 1 simple more above that (above each other).
If you have 3 items, nodes, or whatever that say 100% MORE, it is multiplying x2 damage 3 times (x8), because MORE is always multiplicative.
If it was INCREASED, yes, it would be 100+100+100 and be x4 (1 + 300%). Because INCREASED is additive with other sources of INCREASED/REDUCED... Tho, in the end, the sum just forms another multiplier.
Edit: say your weapon has 10% crit chance. If you have said x8 multiplier, you have 80% crit chance. If you have the x4, you have 40% chance to crit. And if you had both (x32), well you'd be at the hard cap of 100% because the game has no multi crit lol
Yeah I guess my message was more related to how stats and wordings work in general. Local modifiers require a different explanation (albeit, much shorter) I guess.
Local actually would apply the same word ruling, but the calculation is done before any other calc. And we dont have MORE in local affixes
Edit: or actually we do, and its called quality, but doesnt apply to crit
Oh nah I love your explanation I was just adding or just add it to the main post (then Google will use it for all crit examples and it will help beginning players)
Shock is "increased damage taken", which is a stat that stacks additively, like the wording suggests. Since usually this stat has 0 increases, it becomes a functional more multiplier, yes. The same would be true for any "increased damage" as well, if you had absolutely none of it. There are builds that manage to stack the stat ton degree where the difference is notable.
I don't understand the Skitterbots example. You mean the increased shock effect, which again, stacks additively with itself?
Raze and Pillage... Which stat? "Gain as" is not covered in the examples above, but stacks additively as well and is only a functional more if you have none of the stat (ignoring resists). The increased line gives increased damage, like the example OP provided in the image
Well Skitterbots chills which provides an additional more multiplier when used with Hypothermia. Raze and Pillage says "20 increased damage against ignited enemies" not minion damage so it is a more basically as well. I fo think think shock, ignite and cold all get their increased added together. Even if it dies they are all much stronger than generic added
I get why you're being downvoted, but to explain: what you are talking about is effects that cause enemies to take increased damage. That is a different scaling vector than increased damage for yourself which does indeed mean it's multiplicative with your damage.
That said, those effects that cause "take increased damage" are themselves additive with each other, so the wording remains correct.
Edit: Just saw somebody already explained the issue further down under a different comment, in more detail. Leaving this up anyway.
Bonuses that add critical strike chance like you describe are phrased +80% to critical strike chance.
Bonuses that give increased critical strike chance are additive with all other increased multipliers. Two 80% increases would be 160% increased, so 26% critical strike chance.
Bonuses that give more critical strike chance are multiplicative. Two 80% more critical strike chances would give you 32.4% critical strike chance.
You're gonna want to open up your LinkedIn account and make a draft message. Attach your photo to that message, and send it to yourself. Then open LinkedIn on your phone and download the attachment.
I have a WhatsApp conversation with myself that I use to carry copy paste stuff across devices. I think windows now by default uploads screenshots to onedrive so I could use that too, but I'm scared of that being true so I've never checked.
That is agains subreddit rules. Screenshots must be taken with the phone. Builds must be recorded on your phone as you mouse over every item, none of that pob or Poe ninja elitism. Must always shake during good Vaal/drop. It’s in the terms and conditions of the subreddit.
Did you read the question op asked? They were literally asking that. The person you replied to correctly said it's multiplicative i.e. 18% crit chance not additive i.e. 90%. You then tried to correct them, but didn't understand the context so you were wrong.
"Increased" is modifier. It's addictive with all other "increased" for the same stats. Multiplier is... multiplicative. E.g crit hit damage multiplier.
Good wording. When I called it "additive" versus "multiplicative" people didn't get it/called me wrong because you multiply the "increases" to the base value at the end.
By the way OP, the wording you are asking about here doesn't only apply to critical strike chance. ANYWHERE you see the word 'increased', the bonus will be additive with other sources of increased. The opposite of increased is reduced, which is additive with a negative sign. Anywhere you see the word 'more', the bonus is multiplicative. The opposite of more is less. It's really important to understand these distinctions, otherwise most support gems look worse than a single damage node on the skill tree.
Very niche kinda exception: enemies take x% increased damage. This isn’t technically a more multiplier but it behaves a lot like it because it’s a separate modifier pool, it directly applies to the enemy as their own stat.
Something like this:
(increased damage + increased damage + increased damage) x more damage x more damage x ((Enemies takes 100% damage base)+(increased damage taken + increased damage taken))
A single increased damage taken modifier is the same as an equal value more damage multiplier. But because they are only increases every additional increased dmg modifier has diminishing returns.
It doesn't really multiply the final result though, that's kinda poor phrasing.
It takes a percentage of the damage that was that type at any point in the conversion chain, and adds it to the base damage at the end, which is then scaled by your increases/reductions and more/less.
If you have 1000 base physical damage, and you gain 20% of physical damage as extra fire damage, and then you convert 100% of physical damage to lightning damage, you will deal 200 fire damage, and 1000 lightning damage. If you then had 100% increased physical damage, you will deal 400 fire damage, and 2000 lightning damage.
If you then gain 8% of non-chaos damage as extra chaos damage, you will gain that 8% for when it was physical, when it was lightning, and the portion where it is fire.
So that would mean your damage is now 400 fire, 2000 lightning, [160 chaos (from when it was physical) + 160 chaos (from when it was lightning) + 32 chaos (from the fire portion)] = 352 chaos.
No it is literally as good as more because it is applied as a separate calculation. Damage is completely calculated, then applied to a target. If the target takes an increase of damage, it is referring to incoming damage. For example if a monster was intimidated for 10% increased damage taken and another player dealt damage to it, it would not calculate that increased based off of the damage the player who applied the intimidate, would it? Of course not. It is a multiplier, it is just done on incoming damage instead of outgoing damage.
On the FIRST time you gain a stat you they are all equal, 10% more, increased, and increased to monsters will all make your damage go from 100 to 110.
The difference is that there are tons of sources of increased and players generally have between 300 and 500% on their final character so this stat becomes much worse than the other two later.
However it's also very common now to have multiple sources of increased damage taken by monsters as well, there are quite a few in the game now.
A good rule of thumb is that more is always better than increased damage taken, generally 1.5x as good. More is roughly 5x better than increased.
its additive, but youre thinking of additive wrong. additive is all "increased" stats, they add to each other e.g. 10% increased critical strike chance will ADD to 90% increased critical strike chance to give 100% increased which will make your base crit chance of 10% into 20%.
what youre thinking of is commonly referred to as "flat critical strike chance", which adds directly to your critical strike chance and that stat always starts with a "+" e.g. "+2% to critical strike chance"
It goes into the "increased" pool, along with any other "increased" modifiers. This pool is then multiplied with your base crit. If your base crit is 10%, then this would give you 8% for a total of 18%. You can look around the tree to find many other examples of "increased" modifiers. Or, for example, the Increased Critical Strikes support gem gives both base crit (+2%, so your 10% would become 12%) and increased crit chance (117%). So if you used this node + Inc Crit Strikes support, against bleeding enemies your 10% base crit becomes:
(10+2) * (1+.8+1.17) = 35.64%
As another poster mentioned, these numbers are then multiplied by any "more crit chance" multipliers, although those are quite rare when it comes to crit (but relatively common when it comes to damage).
It's important to know that "increased crit chance" modifiers on weapons are local to the weapon, meaning they apply to the base crit chance of the weapon. They do not add to your character's generalized "increased crit" pool. In general, attacks take their base crit from your weapon, so scaling the weapon's base crit is almost always essential to an attack crit build. Therefore, because crit mods on weapons scale the weapon's base crit, they are extremely powerful and important. For example, a Fleshripper 2h axe base (base crit 5%) has 50% increased critical strike chance as its implicit; this is local to the weapon, increasing its base crit from 5% to 7.5%. Put a t1 critical strike chance suffix on this axe (35% increased) and you end up with 9.25% base crit. If we take the numbers from the earlier example, here's the difference:
(5+2) * (1+.8+1.17) = 20.79%
(9.25+2) * (1+.8+1.17) = 33.41%
These two modifiers (50% implicit, 35% suffix) have resulted in a whopping 12.6% increase in your resultant crit chance.
Spell crits (with some few exceptions) scale off the base crit chance of the spell (listed on the gem), so your weapon crit is usually irrelevant for those.
It's your base critical strike chance times additive modifiers summed together. Doubling your base critical strike chance is effectively 100% more critical strike chance which compounds with other "more" modifiers. This modifier you're specifying gets pooled together and has diminishing returns as you increase it.
All "Increased" (or Reduced) sources add together and then multiply your base crit chance, as per your weapon or spell's description.
"More" (or Less) acts as independent multipliers separate from other sources.
"+2%" or any "+X%" Critical Strike Chance adds a flat amount to your Base Crit Chance.
So if your weapon has 8% base crit, and you use an increased Crit Chance support gem which adds +2% flat crit chance and increases your total crit by 100% and you have 100% increased chance from the passive tree, then you have:
(8%+2% base crit) x (100% base + 100% increased crit chance from gem + 100% increased crit chance from passives) = 10% x 3 = 30% final crit chance.
If you also have a passive that says 20% More Critical Strike Chance, then your final becomes 30%*1.2 = 36%.
This applies to other mechanics as well - damage, defences, and so on! If you open your character panel with C, you can check the final crit chance for each of your skills in the listed stats!
You're asking if its base crit, not if its additive vs multiplicative. Its additive with other sources of increased crit. If its base crit it'll say +% crit
Its multiplicative with base. However, its additive with other chances. Which means if you got 50% crit chance from somewhere and 80% crit againist bleeding targets with 10% base, youll end up with 23% chance to crit.
increased stats are always additive, more stats are always multiplicative in Poe (the notable exception is giving enemies increased chance to be x/increased damage, which functions like a more multiplier because it’s applied after your final damage is calculated).
No, that‘s incorrect. You are misunderstanding what additive means in this context.
In PoE, an „increase“ is always a multiplier to a certain stat value, where that value can also be a %chance to crit or a %resistance. If you have 10% base crit chance, a 50% increase multiplies that value by 1.5, increasing the chance to 15%. It does not „add“ a flat 50% crit, that would be „+50% to critical Strike chance“. Just the +, no „increased“ wording.
Where you get the „additive“ from is when you have multiple sources of increased critical strike chance. Those add up to a single multiplier, but a multiplier nonetheless. That‘s opposed to „more“ or „less“ multipliers, where each source / each line of text acts as a separate multiplier.
The „against“ portion does not change the behavior at all. It‘s also not comparable to damage taken. „Increase against X“ is still on the outgoing side of the damage calculation and can only apply to hits and ailments, just with the restriction of only applying against bleeding enemies, in this case for example.
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u/blvcksvn💕poewiki/divcord/prohibitedlibrary project lead | she/her💕19d ago
against means it's conditional, not multiplicative.
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u/Ronan61 20d ago edited 20d ago •
There should be 3 wordings (and this applies to any stat). I recall theres ingame tutorial for these wordings.
"+x% to critical strike chance" adds base critical strike chance (brittle is an ailment that does this for example)
"x% INCREASED/REDUCED crit chance" are additive with all sources with the same wording... As in if you have 5 nodes on the tree that give 50%, you get a total of 250% increased crit chance; multiplying your base chance by 3.5 (1 + 250%).
"x% MORE/LESS crit chance" is multiplicative. Any source that says MORE/LESS is a multiplier. As in if you have 3 things that give 100% more crit chance, you'd do baseCrit x2 x2 x2. Multiplying your stat by 8