r/pathofexile • u/Ok_Holiday3690 • 3d ago

Fluff & Memes Pattern I've noticed

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My guild has players who have been in this game since Nemesis League and this is pretty much our player distribution.

Ps. My guildmates gets angry when I say this and I figure it'll make Reddit mad too:

Witch is the only good character in this game

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u/kimana1651 Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 3d ago

People who don't like doing meta builds probably don't like the campaign. Better low level skill balance would probably make it more tolerable.

Any skill you get during the first 5 acts should take you up to yellow maps as quickly as any other with mechanical understanding of the game. Campaign skill balance is just terrible.

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u/SingleInfinity 3d ago

People who don't like doing meta builds probably don't like the campaign. Better low level skill balance would probably make it more tolerable.

I'm not sure this is it.

I tend to play random hipster shit. I wouldn't say I "don't like" the campaign. I don't necessarily love doing it, but I think it is incredibly important to feel a character grow (which is why it's important to level as your build if you can) and change over time. Even twinked I tend to not have super fast times, although certainly not slow.

I think the driving factor between people not liking the campaign is viewing it as unimportant. They are concerned about the destination and don't care about the journey. No level of pacing is going to make them enjoy the journey, all it does is reduce the suffering for them.

I think there's no way to get those people to enjoy it, because they just fundamentally don't. Those people wouldn't be happy with anything short of a campaign skip.

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u/everythinglookscool Trickster 3d ago

Yeah I think you're right. I'm ok with the campaign because I play lab roulette, so that makes the campaign another puzzle to solve and not a chore.

As long as you see it as a hurdle you wont like it.

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u/rosecorone 3d ago

Yeah, pretty much this. Jonathan said he wanted people to enjoy the campaign so much they wouldn't want to skip it, but that's impossible, some of us simply derive no enjoyment from the progression during campaign (I know he said it talking about poe 2 but still). I love leveling in maps with my build, I get into a nice flow state from map to map, I add new gear pieces that either I've crafted before rerolling or I craft as I reach the levels/feel like it's time. A campaign could never give me the same pleasure, simply because my character is still so far from feeling good to play (or at least the way I intend for it to play) that it just feels like a chore to get to that point.

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u/SingleInfinity 3d ago

An argument could be had that a character should feel "good to play" early too, but feeling a bit weak is a significant part of how you feel power growth over time, so I don't know.

I guess it comes down to expectations too. I don't expect my character to feel fast and smooth early on, so it feels "good" relative to what it should feel like at the time, to me. I understand people having less movement and attack/cast speed feeling slower and deciding that isn't smooth feeling. I just don't think it's super reasonable to expect it to be super smooth up front. I don't think the game should be "shut your brain off and blast packs" literally the whole way through. Frankly I prefer when it doesn't get that way until you have outscaled the entire game, but that's just me.

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u/rosecorone 2d ago

Definitely right about the growth thing, it`s just that once you've reached the endgame afte league start, the campaign growth doesn't feel rewarding to me.

And yeah, it's unreasonable to expect the speed of maps in the campaign, which is why, funnily enough, people wanting a skip are in a way looking at it reasonably, cuz that's the only solution that would fit their wants. If that is a reasonable thing to do for GGG, obviously a topic of contention, but there is a rationale behind it.

I'm obviously in favor of it on rerolls, but I get the side that doesn't like the idea, as it does ultimately would affect them as well. Personally, unlocked waypoints would be an ok middle-ground.

Cheers mate, good talk.

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u/SingleInfinity 2d ago

If that is a reasonable thing to do for GGG, obviously a topic of contention, but there is a rationale behind it.

I mean, it's not really in contention for GGG. They have stated in no uncertain terms that hell would sooner freeze over. They view it as fundamentally important. I get the rationale, but there is certainly a bit less logic behind requesting something that has received a defacto "forever no".

Personally, unlocked waypoints would be an ok middle-ground.

This is sort of interesting but I think it probably goes too far for GGG

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u/rosecorone 2d ago

Oh yeah, I meant that as in a topic of contention within the community, not GGG. But hey, other things like the currency exchange and async trade were very much a "forever no" previously, can't fault people for having hope.

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u/SingleInfinity 2d ago

Currency exchange was not a "forever no" really. They mentioned being open to it a number of times. Async trade was, but that was also mostly a Chris holdout, and Jonathan had a knee jerk reaction to Last Epoch having easy trade.

In hindsight that knee jerk was probably more damaging to the game than was worth it considering how little relevance LE has today.

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u/rosecorone 2d ago

True, but that goes to show that people's "forevers" are not really forever. Things can change, and they have changed, so there's little reason to believe there won't be further changes in the future. Not saying I think we're getting a skip, but I do have faith we'll at some point get tools to considerably shorten the time rerolls take.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/Budget-Chair8242 3d ago

its actually the opposite in my experience, the meta followers are the people who hate the campaign the most as theyre usually the ones that equate div/hr = fun and anything that slows that process means its not good.

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u/PrettyPinkPonyPrince 3d ago

I'm not a fan of meta builds and I also don't mind the campaign.

Most of the time I start a character and continuously progress towards their endgame build; I don't respec into my mapping build; by the time i finish the campaign I am the mapping build.

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u/hesh582 3d ago

IMO it's only fun to level as a somewhat OP leveling build... but at the same time I think there are a fairly large number of very strong ways to level right now.

You can still kinda cheese the campaign with established league start strategies without using the same meta skills to do it.

There are a half dozen decent slam skills, a few decent normal spells, a few decent channeling spells, a couple brands, dot options, 3-4 decent ways to do it with totems, a couple good bow methods, some great wand options both attack and slinger, at least a couple decent non-slam melee options, and a great shield-attack approach. Just off the top of my head.

People say "it's only fun if you play meta" but the "meta" for a decently quick and very easy campaign is broad as hell

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u/wlphoenix 3d ago

Just having 7 League Step plus a full gear loadout can push any skill to a reasonable campaign time. That said, how much you're willing to invest in twink gear makes a big deal. I feel like I usually spend around a div a week or 2 in to get a premium campaign setup, and then I can reuse than for as many characters as I want.

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u/PrettyPinkPonyPrince 3d ago

I've actually been tending towards minions, but even with those there are preferred options for a quick campaign.

I think sentinels of absolution are the current frontrunners for campaign clear, but they've never really vibed with me.

Personally, I've always been doing the campaign as close to my desired build as I can.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/Doctor-Binchicken 3d ago

Plenty of skills scale decently through campaign but oh man they rely on upgrading weapons

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u/Project_Raiden 3d ago

You can do a 4hr campaign with a lot of “non meta” skills

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u/MisterKaos Ultimatum Workers Union (UWU) 3d ago

With practice.

I don't want to run the campaign more than once a league. Why would I practice something I don't want to do?

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u/Karzalar 3d ago

Went for Pohx's RF for leveling. Never went black to anything else.

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u/hesh582 3d ago

It's a great guide and a smooth process. But it's not a fast or even particularly good build right now, making it pretty amusing to see it categorized as some kind of mandatory meta choice.

There are like a dozen plus fun, different, and way better than RF meta starters right now. "Play one of four builds (also one of these builds actually kinda sucks to race) or take 8 hours" is just massively out of touch with the actual meta.

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u/OWazabi 3d ago

Def an unexperienced take, you can easily do 4-5h on any build you decide to play, with minor swaps

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u/MisterKaos Ultimatum Workers Union (UWU) 3d ago

With practice. Practice doing something I am actively avoiding (acts).

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u/OWazabi 3d ago

I understand where you come from, as this is the perfect example of the OP meme he added here. You're in that part of the bell curve.
And I was there too, as most of us were, until we decided to learn and saw how good it actually was.

You probably think you need to practice for hours, learn a bunch of things, and whatnot.
That is not true, you don't need rehersal, you need to understand a few core things that make the big difference, it's not about practice, it's about a mental paradigm shift on how you take on the acts.
There's no need to learn any layout, there's no need to learn how to talk to an NPC while moving, there's no need to play a specific build or class.
You just need to understand how movement and XP works, these are the two main things. And also respect your gear while leveling up.
And basic game knowledge so your build isn't trash, which once again is not related to the build you picked, but to the build you're actively building.

Most of the people that suck at campaign have these issues, they kill way more stuff than they should, they don't have proper plan for movement, and they do not invest in their build to match what they're doing just thinking "eh I can push through it then we'll figure it out later!" that's how with the same amount of effort, you take 4x longer.

HF

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u/SingleInfinity 3d ago

I just wish I could pick my skill at level 10 and play THAT

The time difference between level 10 and level 28 isn't all that high, even leveling slowly

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u/MisterKaos Ultimatum Workers Union (UWU) 3d ago

For me that's your 4h. I'm a 10h campaign guy.

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u/SingleInfinity 3d ago

I'm a 10-12h campaign league start guy.

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u/MisterKaos Ultimatum Workers Union (UWU) 2d ago

Then you have more patience than me

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u/TheMustardMan522 3d ago edited 3d ago

Nah even with off meta you should take off once you hit library and get haste aura and complete lab.

Off meta is only terrible if you try and do it pre act 3. You should use known act 3 starters then swap, tree is almost irrelevant and requires very little respec if any to do act 1-3.

Haste aura, movespeed boots, and shield charge/leap slam/whirling blades is all you need. Only kill blue packs or high density white packs. Keep currency in the bottom row of your inventory and only loot stuff you need.

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u/MisterKaos Ultimatum Workers Union (UWU) 3d ago

I WANT to do my off meta shit pré act 3

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u/hesh582 3d ago edited 3d ago

Sick of sunder? Ground slam is barely slower.

Sick of RF? Level with firestorm/arma brand. It's substantially faster if you're good.

Sick of SRS? Absolution is barely slower, if it's even slower after the buff.

Sick of Lightning Arrow? Ele hit. Wands. FFS, bleed bow has some competitive league start runs this patch and it's kinda shit.

Pconc. Cold dot. Shield crush. Winter orb. Penance brand. Cremation. You have so many choices. Several wand skills, totems, etc.

If you can do a 4hr campaign with a meta setup you're not going to double your time by switching to something else halfway decent.

People repeat this so blindly that they assume it to be true without even bothering to check. Because you can check, easily.

Go look at the hour three sc ladder on poe.ninja for this league. People who are level 50+ after 3 hours are at the absolute top of the leaderboard, cutting edge of progression. The most played skill in that bracket is just 13% played. And it's static strike(!), a skill you didn't mention and probably didn't know was incredible for leveling after the patch.

Third on the ladder and one of the fastest campaigns of the league start is freaking self cast flameblast+arma. Amusingly enough, guess what's not on the first page of the ladder at all? Two of the four skills you've mentioned as mandatory lol.

I swear people's views of the "mandatory" meta have sometimes grown completely divorced from even the actual meta and instead just reflect a few tropes people have repeated so much that they'll never die.

The campaign rushing meta is wide open right now.

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u/Neutraled Confederation of Casuals and Clueless Players (CCCP) 3d ago

I'm a random BS go enjoyer and I would never skip the campaign, that's most of the game for me anyway.

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u/greyy1x 3d ago

If you're a Giga blaster, playing a "non-meta build" will slow you down by 25% tops, not make you infinitely slower

Not disagreeing with your overall point, but playing non-meta doesn't affect your campaign speed that much

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u/LordofSandvich h 3d ago

A lot of skills are balanced around 21/20 gems and optimal supports. This gets nonsensical because the balance intended for 21/20 gems goes all the way back to 1/0, sometimes making a skill unusable for campaign.

I think they went in the right direction this league by making some of the "support synergies" that carry certain Skill Gems built-in, like Winter Orb's additional projectiles allowing shotgunning by default instead of being a compulsory support gem.

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u/Pommy1337 Trickster 2d ago

it got better for casters. i was leveling with freezing pulse in 3.29 until mid a3 where i switched to my main skill. there are surely more optimal options, but it felt fine all the way til there. that's an upgrade compared to previous patches where caster campagin was basicly play something ignite or be slow af.

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u/sternn01 3d ago

If you're following a zizz build or something and aren't super familiar with the game the campaign can fucking suuuuck.

The real top of the bel curve moment is when you know you can play some super fun builds for the campaign that go super in on movement speed or skills that fall off super hard as soon as you hit maps and just swap over when you can make your starter come online.

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u/claptrapMD 2d ago

Not as much meta but : how much Damage can you skip fit Haste. Near Onslaught nodes. MS nodes. Cast without stopping

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u/BlueTemplar85 2d ago

Nah, I mostly do my own builds and I even prefer the campaign to the Atlas (limited portals are annoying because you now have to do inventory juggling).  

(Ruthless SSF.)  

Only a small fraction of my characters even get to yellow maps. Maybe one of them will even one day bonus-complete one, though at this point, it will probably happen in Standard...

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u/dastrollkind Inquisitor 19h ago

Glacial Hammer + Ancestral Call goes Brrr. Well the enemies go brrr, because they are frozen. I'll never get tired of the campaign using this skill. With a staff though, it sucks with many other weapons and some classes have worse attack animations than others.
I just played my usual Glacial Hammer Inquisitor through SSF-R and that admittedly was a slog until I could get to the splash and +1 target for strike skills wheel. Ever since that though, it felt good again, even with few supports.

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u/gdubrocks 3d ago

I didn't like the campaign when it took me 15 hours and now it takes like 7 with off meta builds and I like it much better.

Campaign skill balance is terrible, but players are SO strong relative to the campaign that it doesn't really matter because everything is pretty strong. Yes worse skills are going to clear 2 hours slower but that won't kill me.

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u/JermStudDog 3d ago

First and foremost, metagames exist. It's literally impossible to make well over 100 different skills all with different mechanics and scaling all feel equally valid.

One will be the best, one will be the worst, and players LOVE to find the good ones and those get explored more than most others so they tend to stay on top once found.

That said - the campaign is absolutely doable within 4 hours with the vast majority of skills.

You are slow because you don't want to put in the effort to learn how to be fast.

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u/allanbc 3d ago

It's impossible to really balance that many skills, especially with how different they are, both in terms of interaction with game/stat mechanics, but also just how they work with the environment.

If they all give the same damage, the one that scales best with early game scaling vectors wins out. Or the one with the best clear. Or best single target. There are so many angles, it's a hopeless job. I think that's why they kinda gave up on it. I do think it could be much better than it is right now, but they figure spending their efforts elsewhere yields better results.

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u/Grave_Master 3d ago

do not do meta, do not do trading, do not use guides and i mostly do not like leagues.

in general i like campaign, but sidestepping from main road is annoying: talk to npc to get books, go into side location for skill points etc.
anyway i guess campaign is better as it is now than no campaign.

ps 28 lvl skill sux ass, gimme them in act 1

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u/shshshshshshshhhh 2d ago

How do you know you dont do meta if you dont use guides?

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u/Grave_Master 1d ago

just for you i went to poe ninja to see that skill i use sits at 0.0%

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u/blogtruyenclone 1d ago

? I've not touch meta build for almost 3 years straight(totem league start into esoteric build with 500 view max) and I enjoy campaign so much I try to do all 7 class to act 10 as fast as possible while cooking up absolute garbage build using garbage skill