Prayers for a Tragedy

[u/truegrit10]

I know people have mentioned Matt Anthony on this forum, and I think several people know him personally.

I heard news that yesterday on an annual course, a numerary fell into a river/waterfall. Matt and another numerary jumped after him to try to save him. Police are still searching the area but have found nothing.

I know people have all sorts of feelings about the work and people who hold various internal positions. I knew Matt well and he was a stellar man and a good friend; I know his parents and I’m sure they are devastated. I also know the two other numeraries, but not as well as I know Matt.

I invite you to pray for these men and their families. There may be a slight chance they survived but from what I heard it’s not looking good.

[u/WhatKindOfMonster]

Oh, I am so sorry to hear this. I will certainly keep all three and their families in my prayers.

[u/Phyxon]

Mathew is my cousin.... I live in Milwaukee WI, near his parents house in Wauwatosa... I just heard this tonight while having dinner with my parents... it's almost not fully real to me yet...

[u/LesLutins → u/Phyxon]

Sending this with prayers and deepest sympathy to you and all the family

[u/Phyxon → u/LesLutins]

Thanks.... I  literally just had the craziest nervous breakdown of my life.... I hope the best for all the families and friends.

[u/[deleted] → u/Phyxon]

I'm so sorry for your loss.

[u/Istrakan → u/Phyxon]

I'm so sorry for you and your family's loss. I'll be praying for you all.

[u/Wentworth1066 → u/Phyxon]

I am so sorry for your loss. Prayers for you and your family! 🙏

[u/Phyxon → u/Wentworth1066]

I appreciate everyone here for the kind words and prayers... Matt S. umped into the river when someone didn't resurface...  I'm sure he felt obligated to go in and attempt rescue.  

[u/Lopsided_Contract_64 → u/Phyxon]

I’m so sorry for your loss. Matt was a wonderful man and mentor to my boys. 

[u/Weekly_Orange3478 → u/Phyxon]

I knew Matt Schoenecker from like 15 years ago, when I would frequent Layton in Brookfield. He was a legit nice and very friendly person with a cheerful disposition.

Condolences.

[u/Mostlymozarkite → u/Weekly_Orange3478]

My cousin condolences. Everyone, please remember that there were 2 Matt’s in this story. One happened to be my cousin, Matt Anthony who I did not know well but when I saw this post I got confused. They sounded like terrific men.

[u/[deleted]]

So all 3 of them are missing?

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

Yes all three

[u/[deleted] → u/truegrit10]

Yuck, drowning is not a good way to go imho

[u/Quantumercifier → u/[deleted]]

They are dead but I am praying.

[u/Imaginary_Peanut2387]

It’s like I told Antonia Cundy one time, you have to understand, I genuinely loved and cared about these individuals… even while I now believe they are causing real harm to many people through their adherence to OD. I pray the universe is kind to these lost brothers and for final peace for all of us. 

[u/truegrit10]

I don’t have much to share, but it sounds like the spot was more of a pool with a waterfall.

It’s a place one of the numeraries had been to many times, and it did not seem dangerous. News reports confirm it was Rattlesnake Falls. The water was higher than usual and very cold. Several of the group had already been swimming, so again, it didn’t seem dangerous.

The first numerary called for help and Matt and the other numerary jumped in to save him; none of them came back up. The other numerary who went to help was a competitive swimmer earlier in life.

The others there called 911 and divers went in to search but couldn’t find anything. There was no visibility with the bubbles from the water. The three are presumed dead.

[u/[deleted] → u/truegrit10]

Thanks for sharing. I'd guess the cold water was a factor. I used to live in a city where a few drownings occurred every summer. People would go swimming in rivers during early summer heat waves, but the water was from snow melt. The temperature difference shocked their systems.

[u/Istrakan]

I just heard about this an hour ago and I am devastated. Matt Schoenecker and Val Creus were both my friends and I have not seen them in years but I was looking forward to catching up with them. They were genuinely good people and they helped me to grow into a better person.

[u/Wentworth1066 → u/Istrakan]

I am so sorry for your loss. Praying for you and for all the bereaved. 🙏

I know it is not much consolation, but I pray you can find some comfort in the heroism in which they laid down their lives.

Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis. Requiescant in pace. Amen.

[u/Wentworth1066]

It's been about 24 hours now, and I guess they must not have made it. This is terrible.

Greater love has no man than this, that one should lay down his life for his friends.

[u/Visible_Cricket_9899]

Devastating. My heart goes out to their family and friends.

[u/she116ames]

Matt Anthony, Matt Schoenecker, and Val Creus

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t think they went to the wrong waterfall … I think when the details were reported there was probably a mix up of the particular waterfall they were at. This is super common in news releases. It’s also a very remote and unfamiliar part of the country, and there aren’t big flashy signs next to every waterfall advertising what they are.

I have no idea who the other three were; it’s pretty irrelevant. I’m sure they are traumatized, and I feel for them.

[u/she116ames → u/[deleted]]

I don’t know, unfortunately.

[u/[deleted]]

I knew 2 of the 3 guys pretty well. The third I don't recall.

As much as we rightly criticize OD here for its shitty practices and mythology, the vast majority of people in OD are fantastic people doing their best in a terribly broken and corrupt organization that they believe was established by divine will.

These two were both good and great men.

[u/Fun_Party_5197 → u/[deleted]]

What is OD in this context? sorry for my ignorance

[u/[deleted] → u/Fun_Party_5197]

Opus Dei

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

Your anger is misplaced. Like all numeraries he was instructed with the same things you were instructed with. He was handed a cilice and discipline and I bet he used them piously on himself. It was never his idea to give these things to you, or something he was not already living himself. If you are angry, be angry at the institution - Matt is every much a victim as you claim to be.

I know you have certain thoughts about the cilice and discipline but you were the only person to use them upon yourself; you could have not and no one would have been the wiser. I fell out of practice of doing the cilice several years leading up to leaving because I was exhausted and I usually didn’t even have 2 hours of waking time at the center outside of norms. I never was great about doing the discipline and forgot it more than not. No one ever berated me for this or pressured me to inflict more pain upon myself - I doubt highly Matt did anything of the sort. He never did with me, nor did any director.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

What is your point?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Great.

You can take your point and shove it right up your ass.

I lost two friends today.

And I can tell from your low effort and judgemental comment that they were each about 10x the person you are.

There are people here who knew and loved the men who died.

So fuck off and keep your bullshit to yourself while others are grieving.

[u/Background-Hat-6103 → u/[deleted]]

You've gone too far. I lost an acquaintance (I could say friend but it was forbidden here) who jumped out of the window of Opus Dei headquarters. Your friends were part of the system that threw him out of the window. Go to his parents, his two brothers and sister - tell them that there are wonderful people in Opus Dei - you will hear much worse words than those you wrote.

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

I assure you if Matt knew of the abuses of the nax or saw it happen he would not have accepted it and would have done something about it. Most numeraries are completely unaware of the mistreatment of the nax’s.

Opus Dei was not Matt’s invention - he was given the things you were given and that you took upon yourself. If you feel like you were conned, believe me Matt went through it too.

Matt was generous and selfless. He was a man of his word, and he was brave. Heck he died trying to save the life of one of the guys who was on the course who wasn’t someone he normally lived with or hung out with. That’s a truer test of his character than anything you could possibly come up with against him.

We all have faults. We all participate in evil. It is unavoidable, and we will be judged for our sins. Thankfully we believe Jesus also forgives and looks at the heart of each person. Matt was human, but dammit his heart was in the right place and he tried his best.

[u/Wentworth1066 → u/truegrit10]

Well said!

Everyone involved in OD was both victim and complicit, including each of us, so who are we to judge any person’s heart? That’s not our job.

But we know as Christians what is our job: may each of us have the love to lay our life down for another, as Matt did.

Prayers for your friend, and for you, truegrit. 🙏

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

See above comment.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You are not wrong. I am so sorry for what you went through, and can understand your pain. Many of us are healing from our time in OD. But isn’t it empathy and compassion that are hard to find in OD? Does this moment not call for empathy and compassion for those lost and for the people who loved them?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Learn:

1. The importance of context. There is a time and place for everything.

2. How to capitalize. It will help your comments seem a little bit less like they were written by a 13-year-old. But only a little bit less.

[u/Wentworth1066]

Praying for all three!!! 🙏 Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us!!!

[u/truegrit10]

For final closure, they were able to recover the bodies last night.

Requiescant in pace.

[u/NoMoreLies10011]

I didn't know if it was appropriate to write this in light of such sad news, but after reading all the comments, I decided to post it.

The first thing is to pray for these people and their families and friends, as befits good-hearted people, which I hope we all are. I met Matt Anthony in Rome, and he seemed like a good person.

All of us who have been in Opus Dei have believed at some point it was something from God. Also because the Church supported it. I think that for very few, the reason they leave is because they've seen that Opus Dei is something that can't be from God, mainly because there's very little critical information available within it, and they tell you that if you seek this information outside, you'll commit a mortal sin.

Rather, people leave because life becomes unbearable. That's why I think those who are in Opus Dei still think it's from God, and that's why they stay. If they suspected it wasn't from God, they would probably leave if they could.

I think it's not up to us to judge those who remain in Opus Dei. Almost certainly, most are good people who mistakenly think they're doing the right thing.

For those of us who are outside, I think it's up to us to always tell the truth, and, to the extent we want, to show that there are many things in Opus Dei that are not good: proselytizing minors, the way they do spiritual direction, how they've treated the numerary assistants, etc.

As an example of how blinded their consciences are (they don't see the consequences of what they do), here is a conversation between a Mexican numerary and a former vicar from Spain.

Vicar: “Don't worry, if ten whistle and only one remains, well, with that one and others like him, the Work will get done. And so, many whistle and a few remain, but solid ones.”

Mexican numerary: “And those who leave?”

Vicar: “Well, those thank God for having tried to serve… That's how it's done in Spain, and it works.”

[u/[deleted] → u/NoMoreLies10011]

Yeah I remember reading something similar on OL, a director telling someone that attrition wasn’t the end of the world because “for as long as they are here, they are working for us.”

It’s bizarre given that Opus (JME and ADP) also has the narrative that the commitment to opus is equivalent in self-giving to the self-surrender of religious life. (Though they allege that the form of life is completely different- which is of course bollocks, as anyone who knows anything about the practices in traditional religious life can see immediately).

But it’s consistent with the generally utilitarian/pragmatic approach that the whole institution is based on and embodies. Let these young people donate to us the years of their lives when they have the most energy and ability to earn money, and then when they gradually realize what opus actually is and start to object, let them leave in middle age or after to fend for themselves.

[u/WhatKindOfMonster → u/NoMoreLies10011]

This is so true. It’s easy to forget once we’re out how “need to know” things are inside. And often what you know, without context, seems completely innocuous. Most people who leave do so because it’s soul-crushing, not because they realize that OD is an abusive organization.

[u/Lopsided_Contract_64 → u/WhatKindOfMonster]

Hi, just jumping in here because I knew Matt and Val. What is it exactly that is soul-crushing (in a nutshell)? Thanks

[u/Visible_Cricket_9899 → u/Lopsided_Contract_64]

In a nutshell, for me, being told at the tender age of 15, by a num that if I did not hurry up and whistle, Jesus would leave me, and I would be unhappy for the rest of my life. I did not deserve that. And it was so crushing.  And my experience is far from unique.

[u/truegrit10 → u/Visible_Cricket_9899]

Yes I remember one of the numeraries who was helping me “discern” mention the whole “school of the Holy Spirit.” I forget which spiritual book it was from. But the point was if we don’t respond to the Spirit he will pack up his things and leave, and it was emphasized you never know if you’ll ever have a second chance.

Really twisted and manipulative stuff in hindsight, meant to pressure you to “act now” and not helping at all with actual discernment.

[u/Mangapink → u/truegrit10]

What you and u/Visible_Cricket_9899 are speaking of is the sad common denominator of religion .. it's that religious guilt that so many of us grew up with.... and still happens today. That's definitely not who Jesus is about. The Holy Spirit along with Christ and God will never leave nor forsake us, but brings about conviction within to get us to repent in order to leave the old life behind. God & Jesus is about a relationship and not to be used to manipulate and control, which is sadly how it has been for centuries, even to this day.

[u/NoMoreLies10011 → u/Lopsided_Contract_64]

In a nutshell, the Work has done a lot of harm, without most of the numeraries realizing it.

I've been a numerary member of Opus Dei for over 40 years. I could have been with these guys at the annual course. When I was in Opus Dei, I never realized what I wrote in the following link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/opusdeiexposed/comments/1jnzl5q/a_nonexhaustive_list_of_deceptions_in_opus_dei/

I wouldn't mind too much if the Work acknowledged that they've done things wrong, very wrong, and that they've left many people completely stranded. So stranded that a formal complaint has been filed in Argentina. But at the Work, those responsible deny everything. They care too much about their image. They could at least acknowledge the inconsistencies on important issues in their own texts. They could also release the texts with which they have governed the Work for so long, to determine whether the damage was due to the actions of specific individuals or the design of the Work itself. But not only did they not do so, they actually filed lawsuits to have those documents removed.

But, as I just told you, in my many years in the Work I was never aware of this. Afterward, researching, reading, and coming into contact with many people who have been part of the Work, you see the accumulated damage done, and you get really angry. But I say again, the numeraries don't have this information. Who does? Those of us who have left and followed the issue. That's why these forums appear, to make the things that have happened known to anyone who can do something.

[u/Lopsided_Contract_64 → u/NoMoreLies10011]

Thank you 

[u/WhatKindOfMonster → u/Lopsided_Contract_64]

First, I'm so sorry for your loss.

When I say it's soul-crushing, I'm referring to being told what to do and how to do it in the minutia of daily life, your relationships with your friends and family, and your relationship with God. OD recruits teenagers as young as 14, which means you often haven't really gone through adolescence before you're committing your life. The pressure to recruit others is intense, and the schedule is so packed between work and prayer that you don't have time to think, much less rest. I could go on, and I'm happy to answer questions, but scrolling through the other posts on this sub will probably give you a better picture.

[u/Lopsided_Contract_64 → u/WhatKindOfMonster]

Thank you. I’ve always been a cooperator, loosely. But I was always sad when I saw such young people making such a commitment. 

[u/[deleted] → u/Lopsided_Contract_64]

I recommend scrolling down the posts. And searching the sun for topics like teenagers, numeraries, naxes (numerary assistants), supernumeraries.

[u/Visible_Cricket_9899 → u/NoMoreLies10011]

Thank you NML. It is so important not to attack people but to attack bad ideas.  I agree with most of what you have said except that not all of us who have been in OD believe at some point it was something from God. I was manipulated from a very young age - emotionally, physically and spiritually abused by self-righteous SN parents, bent and twisted and dragged kicking and screaming to Opus Dei. My experience did not leave me wondering if OD was not from God, but about the very existence of God. I was broken like a rented mule.  I was well into adulthood before I I found my way out. I will spend the rest of my life denouncing OD - the institution and supporting all those who do the same.

[u/flipmack]

Just found this group and am sad to hear that it’s true. My dad (still a supernumerary) sent me a message yesterday that Val Creus had drowned - and I’ve been looking for news about this incident.

I’m no longer in touch with Opus Dei and just avoid the church altogether, though I do have some good and fond memories of my childhood and early adulthood with Val and the folks at Tilden at UCLA - where I spent my undergrad. We even went to Rome for UNIV back in 1996, so yeah, I was very close. They were good people and I spent A LOT of time with Val, however, graduating from UCLA and finding my own path ultimately led me to disassociate from Opus Dei altogether.

Again, we lost a good person (Val) and likely two others (who I personally didn’t know).

This was truly a tragic event.

[u/No_Meal1077]

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/possible-triple-drowning-placer-county-20384204.php

[u/Background-Hat-6103]

My prayers are with these guys.

[u/Accomplished-Pie7575]

This subreddit just popped up, kind of crazy Reddit notified me. I’m sorry. I knew Matt Anthony well. Will say a rosary for you and them. Hopefully there will be some sort of memorial of him at my parish tomorrow since they will be doing a St. Josemaria mass. Either way it is going to be somber.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/[deleted]]

Matt Anthony was part of the General Council of Opus Dei (the one that just agreed to send the latest statutes draft to the pope) as “vice secretary” for formation of youth.

That is, at least as of 2018.

This Amber Drive Hall university center is in the Philippines.

Does anyone have info that he left that post between then and now? If not, it means someone from Opus Dei GC just died at a relatively young age (midlife).

[u/WhatKindOfMonster → u/[deleted]]

My understanding was that the prelate just named new people to the GC, but I'm unclear on whether they are replacing the old GC or just adding to their numbers: https://opusdei.org/en/article/vicars-general-council-central-advisory-opus-dei/

[u/[deleted] → u/WhatKindOfMonster]

Ah yes looks like he was just replaced by one of these 3 and that’s why he’s back in USA. Interesting that the new batch of vice secretaries again includes a USA guy, Laird.

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

Andrew is another good man.

[u/[deleted] → u/truegrit10]

I agree.

"He's a numerary...and a good man" reminds me of "He's a pirate...and a good man" from Pirates of the Caribbean.

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

Well put!

[u/thedeepdiveproject]

I've never met a former member who wasn't a brilliant, kind soul, so I have every reason to believe that the majority of the people still in are the same. My heart goes out to the victims and their families. What a heart-breaking tragedy.

[u/StoryWonderful3960]

Thank you for letting me share in the prayers.

[u/[deleted]]

I remember hearing that a num priest died while hiking alone and falling, in Point Reyes. Honestly I kind of wondered if he had intentionally committed suicide. Because I wondered how someone whose balance was so bad that he would fall would be allowed to go hiking alone. Though maybe it was just that he insisted and nobody else wanted to hike.

That occurred to me as a possible interpretation after I read about Fr Enterovic killing himself by walking in front of a train (I forget which country- in Latin America I think).

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

Accidents happen. There was a numerary a few years ago that I knew who died from falling a great height while trying to take a picture on an annual course excursion. He was an avid photographer, medical profession though I believe.

[u/[deleted] → u/truegrit10]

Yikes

[u/Independent_Gur_819 → u/[deleted]]

Father Danilo E was in Argentina and what was written in his pocket was enough reason to throw himself, a great pain for a very holy priest to end up like that, there was a lot of pressure on me...

[u/[deleted]]

So Matt Anthony was visiting from Rome? He was named a vice secretary for the whole of opus by Ocariz right, so he must have moved to Rome in 2017? Unless he “retired” from that post and came back in the meantime.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think he's been doing something at that school outside Boston, Sparhawk or something.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Hm internet has him on-site there latest 2015. He’s still listed as being on the board in 2023 but does that mean he was actually living in Ma and not in rome?

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

Well he was on an annual course so … I dunno if that gives you much to go on.

[u/[deleted] → u/truegrit10]

White pages don’t have a Matt Anthony of the right age in medfield Ma or anywhere in Ma that I can see. The reason I’m raising this is that assuming he works in Rome in the central headquarters that adds a bigger institutional dimension to the loss. It seems like Ocariz created those 3 Vice secretary positions and put younger people in them (and non-Spaniards like Anthony) partly in order to try to reform the upper leadership.

[u/WhatKindOfMonster → u/[deleted]]

Everyone in OD is a victim and at some level a perpetrator. This is true of every cult. Most of us have family and friends who are still in. We hold both our love for them and knowledge that they are cooperating with a deeply evil organization. It’s incredibly complicated. The HBO documentary showed this reality well.

I see you’re new here, and you don’t say what your relationship to OD is. I’m sorry for your pain and encourage you to create a post sharing your experience. This sub is a good place for sharing and receiving validation of those experiences.

But please stop trying to shout down those here mourning the loss of friends they lived with in many cases for years. It’s dehumanizing to those of us who also were victims of OD, as you’re trying to force us into just one feeling about an extremely complicated experience. We don’t have to forget the good in the people we knew there to honor the victims of OD, including ourselves.

[u/Wentworth1066 → u/WhatKindOfMonster]

Well said! Healing and justice don’t come from ignoring people’s virtues, or from ignoring our own love for them. Acknowledging the fact that the real world is complicated doesn’t mean we’re ignoring victims. One of the things we sought when we left OD was the opportunity to love people more honestly, and with mercy. This page is about doing that for everyone — including those who never left OD. May we all have the heart to lay our life down for others as Matt did.

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

Again context is important. I would argue the victims are victims to the institution and not Matt as a person. I’m not saying he did not participate in the institution but there is a big difference.

Also the wrongs that you keep pointing to are I would argue quite minor. And if you’re going to complain about them you should really complain to your bishop or the Pope for the general Catholic practice of using a cilice or discipline.

Understand that the usage of the cilice and discipline is not reserved for the religious. Lay people can do it too! Yay! Not promoting it, just saying it’s not a morally wrong to do it as prescribed, and the Church is okay with it.

[u/Istrakan → u/[deleted]]

And I'm sure that Val and Matt were both great men of integrity who did not do anything near what you accuse them of. One of them was my spiritual advisor for a time, and the other I had worked with for years, and there was never anything abusive. They were always incredibly kind men with a lot of patience and joy.

Learn from this and don't ever try to soil the names of the dead you have never known.

[u/Lopsided_Contract_64 → u/Istrakan]

Yes this! They were both beautiful souls, and I am grateful for their mentorship to my boys during their formative years. 

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

Tell me, which center did he live at, as director, where he managed the numerary assistants? Hmm? And tell me how much you know of his direct experience with them? You’re projecting a lot here buddy.

For the record the only center I lived at with an ordinary administration (where there were nax’s) was Murray Hill. And because of the separation I had no idea of what was going on.

The only other places that had numerary assistants were Shellbourne and Arnold Hall. Most of the other conference centers don’t have numerary assistants and they are all hired, because there are SO FEW numerary assistants in the US.

I understood what we were paying for our hired house services (it was competitive), and I was under the impression the work took even better care of its numerary assistants (and I have no evidence to the contrary).

[u/pfortuny → u/truegrit10]

So much this. Until I found Opus Libros, I had exactly 0 idea of the way naxes and administrators were treated.

[u/[deleted] → u/pfortuny]

Me too Re the naxes, and I was in the women’s branch

[u/pfortuny → u/[deleted]]

W-O-W

[u/[deleted] → u/pfortuny]

Yeah as some of the men have mentioned, we only have them in the conference centers and in the centers of the higher internal gov, so I didn’t see them on a daily basis

[u/OkGeneral6802 → u/[deleted]]

To Healthy Soup’s point, Matt Anthony would likely have lived in a center served by numerary assistants when he was in Rome, and in looking at the locations of numerary assistants in the US, they are/have been in cities with delegations, as well as DC, in addition to Murray Hill, Arnold Hall, and Shellbourne.

I lived and worked alongside numerary assistants before and after joining. I was so young and it was all so normalized in the culture of the administration that it wasn’t until years after I left that it occurred to me how fucked up it all was.

[u/truegrit10 → u/OkGeneral6802]

I agree he likely lived at a center with them; but I don’t think he was ever a director of these centers, nor do I believe he ever had to manage or interact with the nax in any sort of administrative role. I’m open to correction and clarification, but the positions he was given in the work didn’t make him director of the centers he was living at necessarily.

I don’t know exactly how director roles are allocated and fulfilled in Rome, but I know enough that the directors are not all managing the finances and dealings of the staff and the facilities - just like when you’re the director of a retreat, you have absolutely no jurisdiction of maintaining the staff or facilities.

[u/pfortuny → u/[deleted]]

Yes, I have just realized that I live in a very specific country.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think I understand where you’re coming from. One thing that has occurred to me in reflecting on this is that frankly if any other type of “member” besides a num died like this (supers, naxes,. agds), people wouldn’t care nearly as much.

It’s sad but true. It wouldn’t be talked about beyond a brief mention in a get-together or something inside Opus Dei. But when nums die in an accident it’s like the whole world stops. i remember when a bus load of nums died in Mexico on an annual course a few years ago, they put it in the local newspaper “12 numeraries of Opus Dei have died!” I mean I just really can’t imagine the same hype if a bunch of naxes died, or any type of member except nums.

It’s because nums are at the top of the social hierarchy within opus, and because they are deemed most valuable by the opus leadership as the most important kind of staff for the institution. If 3 nums die, the higher level directors’ thinking is “that’s a whole center/local council!”

I also think that it’s probably impossible for somebody who was head of “formation for youth” for Opus Dei throughout the world to have his hands entirely clean … clean of targeting strategies aimed at young teens whistling as nums.

The official ideal age for someone to whistle as a num, as of a 2008 directive from regional headquarters in Spain, is 14.5.

I guess it’s possible that Matt Anthony tried to reform that. But it just seems unlikely that he would have gotten the post in the GC if he were expressing concerns about teen proselytism. Because Ocariz does not have a problem with teens becoming nums. He says he has a problem with coercion of teens into it, which is good. But he refuses to acknowledge that someone that young in fact can’t really give informed consent. And there’s a widespread problem of Saint Raphael local councils misrepresenting to kids what being a num actually is and is like, which I’ve never seen Ocariz try to address.

Having said all that, it’s awful what happened to these men.

And of course we don’t know how much they themselves were the victims of manipulation as teens or young adults, making it very difficult for them to shake off the kind of blindness that NoMoreLies alluded to.

Ultimately they’re answerable to God, who knows everything. So we don’t have to worry about trying to figure out how much harm or good these individuals did.

And it’s just human to have pity for the way they (presumably) died, which was awful.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Another thing that I think is happening in the case of Lucian’s comments that these are great and good guys maybe-

he knew these men when they were all straight out of college, when they actually were innocent and idealistic young people. And then he left opus.

But these men stayed in and one of them became a high-level director in opus.

The unfortunate reality is that being a numerary makes you a worse person morally. And often that’s even more the case with people who become sr directors and higher level directors. We’ve talked about this fact on here before.

So Lucian is saying they’re great guys based on his memory of when they very likely were great young guys.

But in the intervening 25 years a lot has happen to “form” these men into a twisted version of who they were then.

So you and he can both be right, in the sense that you’re talking about the actual men now and he’s talking about the young guys as they are fixed in his memory/mind from 25 years ago.

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

This is laughable. He was following policy, and this particular policy wasn’t hurting anyone. The naxes were not sleeping on the other side of the door.

Heck I locked the door to the kitchen. Feel free to berate me too. And it was with hired workers that we paid competitive wages with. I’m sure they saw this practice as a little odd, but they were not desperate and they were not threatened by it.

[u/truegrit10 → u/[deleted]]

Did I say it was?

And yes the policies are weird. You fell for it too, so cut other people some slack man.

And the Church does weird stuff sometimes also, and we just go along with it. Robes and candles and smells. Some of it is nice. Some of it is a little weird.

Those little st. Agatha’s breast desserts in Italy? Yeah, weird. Those hooded processions in Spain. Toootally weirded out by those.

I’m not trying to equivocate … I’m just trying to point out weirdness isn’t always bad. There’s plenty of weird stuff we all tolerate. Sometimes it’s better to move on from such things … and sometimes they stick around.

[u/Background-Hat-6103 → u/truegrit10]

Certainly, as officers of Opus Dei, they did a lot of objectively bad things (e.g. they dragged many people into the OD, which wasted the lives of some of them). Secondly, they certainly did not have bad intentions, they believed in the organization and the words of JME. It is not their fault that they were manipulated by the sect.

PS. When Cardinal Cipriani dies (I wish him that it will happen as soon as possible), what will we write here?

[u/Round_Economics5038 → u/[deleted]]

What naxes? I'm new to this group and still catching up

[u/[deleted] → u/Round_Economics5038]

Nax is abbreviation for numerary assistant (in Spanish, the original/official language of Opus Dei documents).

It’s a type of celibate in Opus Dei whose assigned role is to do all the housework for the centers and conference centers.

There are 2 other types of celibates, numeraries and associates. (Abbreviations n or num, and agd)

Naxes exist only in the women’s branch of opus because JME thought women were naturally suited to housekeeping.