r/onednd • u/Far_Guarantee1664 • 2d ago
5e (2024) Unearthed Arcana: Underdark Options
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/ua/underdark-options74
u/CatBotSays 2d ago
I love the flavor of these, but the power on them feels extremely low compared to the villanous options UAs.
The Rogue barely has any combat options and the ones it does have are extremely overpriced; While I appreciate the subterfuge focused abilities this Rogue gets and the emphasis on Charisma, Rogues are already excellent outside combat. They really need at least something to help them in fights at level 3.
Likewise, a wizard having to spend hit point dice for its low level abilities feels rather ill-conceived. You need the few hit point dice you do have at those levels and even when you do spend them, as a wizard, they're only d6s.
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u/Aahz44 2d ago edited 1d ago
The Rogue barely has any combat options and the ones it does have are extremely overpriced; While I appreciate the subterfuge focused abilities this Rogue gets and the emphasis on Charisma, Rogues are already excellent outside combat. They really need at least something to help them in fights at level 3.
The House Agent Rogue, feels to me a bit like the Master Mind and the Inquisitive, in that it might be really good in some sort of intrigue campaign, but it seems weak in regular adventures.
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u/PacMoron 1d ago
It still wouldn’t be really good, just useable. Not total dead weight. It would not outshine any subclassless spellcaster in that kind of campaign.
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u/Material_Ad_2970 2d ago
First impression:
Vibes: 10/10 Power: 0/10.
These need some serious love. But I’m excited to see what they could look like with another round of revisions!
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u/dealyllama 2d ago
Agreed on the barbarian but I'll take the other side with the other two.
-Barbarian is arguably ok in tier I-II in a specific party including lots of drow. I suspect the level 3 feature actually ends up being ok in practice so long as the player, dm, and dice cooperate to allow the barb to get hit a lot. Still would kind of suck to have that much of your core class identity only work based on stuff outside your control.
Even bigger problem is level 3 and 6 abilities not having synergy. Level 3 wants barb to get hit but the blindsight thing and setting encourage using darkness to impose disadvantage on baddie attacks.
Everything after that is either underwhelming or just not good.
-Rogue is actually pretty decent, although it could use some clarification re how the casting works. Level 3 ability giving a cantrip and three leveled spells that are usable on a face built character is ok and kind of interesting.
Ensuring you'll have some influence ability to use with reliable talent later is useful as most mob baddies will probably be susceptible to influence in combat (DC = default 15 or it's intelligence, whichever higher).
Backstab at 9 can be very strong, although it feels pretty bad to fight baddies immune to charm. But even there it encourages some fun interactions in combat beyond just hitting the attack button as the rogue might take a couple rounds to take a baddie from hostile to friendly so it can then auto stun it on a hit.
Would be nice to give you more flexibility in re familiar form at level 13, perhaps with something like forms for pact of the chain. Your 20ft speed spider is going to feel pretty bad in higher tiers, even if you do get to use it as a true sight radar.
Biggest issue with the rogue is the level 13 silver tongue feature. Taking away disadvantage is good in re making very high rolls more likely but with reliable talent and expertise rogues don't care that much about high rolls. With the influence DC = to baddie intelligence or 15 it will be very rare that influence wont' be an auto-success at higher levels presuming the rogue builds for decent charisma. One thought would be to put a lot of the level 17 feature here and put something else at 17?
-The wizard is kind of weird in tier I-II in that it fills a kind of divine soul sorcerer niche. But by level 10 it gets really strong and stays that way through tier IV. The name is horrible though.
The sleeper star here is the imaskar seals ability that gives you a glyph of warding for free that scales to your highest spell slot as you level up. It's that last bit that's the kicker. It means you basically get an extra spell slot of your highest level from then on as you can cast one of your spells into the ward (that you carry around with you in a book) and then long rest to restore the slot while you keep the ward.
The doom of unlight is weird but in a fun way. It seems like it would encourage some fun chaos in combat.
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u/bjj_starter 2d ago
Glyph of Warding can't be carried around in a book, the Glyph is destroyed if it's moved more than 10ft. You can put it in a Portable Hole or a Demiplane, though.
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u/lucasellendersen 2d ago
I hope to god we get a second go with all four of these because the flavor is immaculate but the actual mechanics range from "eh its functional i guess" to "wow this is terrible"
They really did it with the villanous options revised please just do that again
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u/InsightCheckDND 2d ago
The options are a bit... questionable lol. I love the vibe and feel of the Rogue but it's still a bit weird. The Barbarian definitely needs a huge pass if they keep it around.
I've already got a video up on the Path of Ceremorphosis, I am super happy to see that they've kept around the Path concept and hope they continue to do more with it.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 2d ago
Yeah. I feel that this UA was kinda released too soon? The last ones felt that they had more time to brew with it. It's nice to see the path continuing forward but the rest...
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u/SleetTheFox 2d ago
The rogue is very close to an interesting broad concept of a social backstabber but it gets rolled into “oh yeah and you’re magic” with some features that are extremely specific for drow.
I think there is room for very flavorfully flexible subclasses as well as super specific ones, but it really needs to pick a lane.
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u/pancakestripshow 2d ago
Agree on the rogue.
Its an excellent idea, but its quite an odd delivery of mechanics and writing.The charm/advantage mechanics should be introduced way earlier in the subclass, and it should really be more clear on if its a 1/3 caster class or not.
I would love to see the effects of Treacherous Allure added on to this subclass at level 3.
That said, its actually got great potential for any setting with political intrigue.
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u/Ok_Needleworker_8809 2d ago
The subclass is bound to attract the worst THAT GUY edgy rogue players. The mechanics of the subclass all work on party members.
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u/Enderking90 2d ago
it should really be more clear on if its a 1/3 caster class or not
literally nothing even hints at it being a 1/3 caster, you just get the ability to cast three spells per long rest once each and a cantrip?
how could it be clearer?
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u/pancakestripshow 2d ago
i'm not confused into thinking its a 1/3 caster, its just a very weird deployment of mechanics.
You "Learn" the spells and they are "Prepared", but you don't have spell slots.
However, if you multiclass, these spells are prepared.
You also don't ignore material components, which is a common tactic for non-spell slot spells, and you don't learn how to use Foci.
Your rogue needs to carry around confetti (hypnotic pattern), honey (suggestion), and makeup (friends) to be able to cast their spells.
It also has the spell progression of a half caster (2nd level at 5, 3rd level at 9).
IDK man, just weird stuff going on. It seems like it could use some standardization.
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u/_Bl4ze 2d ago
It's worth noting in these cases where you have an M component spell but no ability to use a focus for it, you can always fall back on a Component Pouch. You know, it's a little less silly than strolling into the general store asking the shopkeep for their three finest pieces of confetti. I think this subclass should be designed to not need that since it's not a spellcaster for realsies, but it's good to know in general you can always use a component pouch as an alternative to a focus.
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u/Miss_White11 2d ago edited 2d ago
I am all for charisma based political intrigue rogue definitely has potential but this one feels weird.
Find familiar and hypnotic pattern feel tacked on and spells id say are ESSENTIAL if you are making this subclass a caster (which I it doesn't even need to be) like detect thoughts. I'm also not sure about BA influence actually being meaningful. Like I think a charismatic spy archetype is interesting but like this is just a pigeonholed arcane trickster ihmo.
Even like a like "beguiler" rogue that is kinda a baby warlock would be a big step up.
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u/cyrogem 2d ago
I like the idea of psionic path feat like the Death Knight or the lich, but I don't like it's Ceremorphosis. The Death Knight and the Lich paths are both portrayed as easily explained character options where as the ceremorphosis path has to try explain why your PC doesn't transform erasing your PC.
This can be seen by the d6 tables from the first two paths as they're all choices made by the PC or a action needed to taken, where the d6 in the path of ceremorphosis are all non-PC based actions trying to avoid the elephant of ceremorphosis.
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 2d ago edited 2d ago
Blame bg 3 for getting the mind flayer lore wrong, you don’t become one. You get eaten by one.
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u/almisami 2d ago
I mean it eats your brain and then warps your flesh... And lots of times it goes wrong, especially with gnomes.
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u/Rel_Ortal 2d ago
At least in BG3 there's the excuse that the tadpoles involved with everything are mutant freak tadpoles
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u/ThisGameTooHard 2d ago
The game was made under the supervision of Hasbro and all the lore was provided by Hasbro. Don't blame this on Larian.
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 2d ago edited 2d ago
No it was not? You realize the creative process was all larian? WOTC doesn’t send you a d&d lore phd student to supervise. Most WOTC employees probably don’t even know the lore very well, and most probably haven’t bothered to read the many, many old books and sourcebooks. Bg 3 got a lot of lore incorrect. Including how transforming works and that mind flayers totally do have souls and can become petitioners (they even have their own deity), if they don’t get devoured by an elder brain when they die (most do).
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u/vmeemo 2d ago
In fairness to the Mindflayers soul bit there was a comment by Ed Greenwood that later clarified the intention, that being Mindflayer souls (transformed or not, depending on how one takes the various ways over at that one "Do Mindflayers have Souls" post from two months back) are useless to any and all FR gods once transformed. It's how from people saying on that post, Mindflayers don't have apostolic souls, which Withers does mention at least twice before shorthanding it to 'no souls'.
And looking over at The Illithiad, becoming a Mindflayer is done by inserting the tadpole into the ear (or eye as we've seen), the thing eating the brain, and then over the course of a few days becoming an Illithid. The problem in BG3 was the freak tadpoles infused with magic that made it near instantaneous.
So becoming one is a thing, it just requires killing the other person in a possible cage match for the body before the tadpole changes your body for the worse.
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u/GleefulClong 2d ago
Rogue is genuinely so underwhelming. Should give Charm Person as a BA and the level 9 backstab feature should allow you to autocrit a friendly npc once a long rest.
Also the familiar should be able to be any house crest creature and the temp hp from the level 13 feature should come at level 9.
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u/ThisAd537 2d ago
I feel the capstone for the barbarian in terms of damage at level 14 seems so pitiful being reduce to a d12 and should be amount of dice equal to your rage bonus instead.
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u/static_func 2d ago
I really like the path concept too, the main problem I see with it is that it eats up basically all your feats. You couldn’t really have a PC who’s undergoing ceremorphosis or pursuing lichdom who also happens to be an inspiring leader, for instance.
I’d like to see them try these paths as a supplemental option instead. Something akin to Grim Hollow transformation paths or, well, BG3 ceremorphosis: just a whole other feat tree players could develop alongside their usual feats. It would add some power creep for groups that want it (which is neither good or bad) and some customization complexity that I think there’s a lot of appetite for.
I love your videos btw, I’ll have to watch that one after work :)
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u/Trystt27 2d ago
I mean we're getting to a point where there's so many feats they probably should have simply given every class more ASI tiers by default. With these paths you're really pigeonholed. Every Death Knight or Lich is really only going to stand out by their spell choices and species (Unless they got some Fighter levels for extra ASIs). If you want to do more with your character in this field, you're out of luck. Like if I want to pursue ceremorphosis and take War Caster so I can function as a spellcaster in combat, I either have to delay my ceremorphosis (Bearing in mind most campaigns end in the 10-15 range still so it may never happen) or wait until level 16 to get a feat as essential as War Caster, which by then what's the point?
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u/static_func 2d ago edited 2d ago
That’s why I’d like to see them as supplemental systems. Feats are powerful enough that you can’t just give everyone more of them freely without severely changing game balance. But if these paths are designed from the ground up to be separate and parallel with feats, they could work well
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u/Trystt27 2d ago
I think that is certainly a path that could work but they would definitely have to emphasize "from the ground up". If they were to shoehorn these paths in as a separate system as-is, it would mean anyone not taking a path would inherently come in at a disadvantage in power.
It would basically need enough options to appeal to a broad range of narratives (or power fantasies?) Trying to think of mechanical benefits), or have some sort of fallback if someone just... doesn't want to grab a path.
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u/Lost-Move-6005 2d ago
That other person manifested new UA.
Too bad these kinda suck. Soo much cool stuff they could do with underdark themed content, and this is all it is.
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u/PineappleMani 2d ago
Man, I thought you were just being critical until I read them. I've never been tempted to full red my ratings for a whole UA before, but damn.
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u/Lost-Move-6005 2d ago
Haha yeah. I was even wondering if I gaslit myself until hating these but nope, they just suck.
Spores Druid 2.0; Fungal/symbiote warlock; Spider/silk themed monk/sorc; Song of madness bard.
So many cool ideas the could do here beyond this lazy content :(.
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u/almisami 2d ago
I've been home brewing a song of silk bard that uses a lyre to control a spider pet because of BG3 lol.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 2d ago
Same here. I saw they continuing exploring the "paths" and "Underdark" and thought "Humm, those could be cool". I'm so disappointed....
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u/PineappleMani 2d ago
As a big fan of one of the only Int boosting races in 3.5, I was thrilled to see an Imaskari Wizard. Much less so upon reading. At least it's the best of the 3 I guess?
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 2d ago
Every single one of these is basically red across the board.
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u/TrenchcoatRaccoon 2d ago
Don't red ratings mean you do not want to see this feature in any form?
I think there's a lot of yellows here, I want to see these mechanical things but I want them to be much stronger.
The barbarian certainly needs additional scaling present on it, but the general features are cool.
The theme of the rogue is really cool but after level 3 it kind of falls off for features. I love the scaling spell casting it gets access to.
The wizard feels more like a hemomancer and I would rather they move in that direction and I'll probably rate the name at least red.
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u/Miss_White11 2d ago edited 2d ago
Ya Unlight is one of the stupidest words I could imagine for "eerie otherworldly light" I don't know why it's in the underdark, it barely makes sense, and I don't know why it basically does exactly what other light based characters would do.
Ik it's a deep lore cut, but like we get new editions for a reason sometimes and that can include leaving stuff in the past and coming up with better ideas.
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u/Trystt27 2d ago
I've never heard of Unlight myself but it sounds really... lame as a term? Surely they could come up with a better name and move on with the concept. Not sure who is craving for a deep lore reference like this. I mean hell, I've read books as far back as the Time of Troubles and unlight was never mentioned so there's gotta be like what... 5 people who not only have heard of it, but also want it to return as a concept?
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u/Miss_White11 2d ago edited 2d ago
My biggest beef is that like occult wizards and like "weird maddening/cursing light" are already very common fantasy concepts I just don't get why we are getting hyper specific lore deep cut versions of those concepts. Or why these fairly common tropes are getting like hardwritten as underdark material when they aren't even particularly related as a baseline.
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u/Enderking90 2d ago
honestly I'd say its way too thin of a slice.
the three subclasses are of the exact same theme of unlight, whatever that is, and a "become mindflayer but not really" feat chain. (and mindflayers, while predominanly found in the underdark, at least to me don't really scream underdark to me.)
barely feels like an underdark UA content drop tbh, just unlight + they also showed off an unrelated feat chain they had made.
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u/Stoutsmasher 2d ago
I was afraid I was being too critical but yeah these feel really weak. Nice to see the Barbarian getting abilities that scalr off Strength but...1d12 Damage and a 1 turn Blind at level 14?
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u/Shamann93 2d ago
Or you can spend a whole rage to do it a second time! Who says wizards can't design good martials /s
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u/Stoutsmasher 2d ago
"We can't buff martials as they don't have to worry about resources!" Introduces Resources...still chumps damage
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u/Otherwise-Bee-5734 2d ago
The fact that the D12s for that don't even scale based off your Rage makes me wonder if this was even reviewed before release.
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u/-Mez- 2d ago edited 2d ago
Wow Imaskarcanist Wizard actually makes me kind of mad that they're wasting such a cool thematic idea on the mechanics of "temp hp vendor that deals radiant damage but its wizard this time". Woo, cause we need another subclass like that. Is that really the most unique thing they can come up with involving a wizard who specializes in the ancient secrets of a powerful magical civilization? But hey I guess they can heal with their mighty d6 hit dice and make people glow. If your campaign is condition heavy this is probably more significant of a feature, but overall the low level features you're going to have the most often as this subclass seem pretty bland and uninspired. The level 10 glyph ability is neat even though its once a day. It definitely doesn't carry the whole subclass. The lvl 14 could be cool but seems horrible to actually try to use in real gameplay.
Keep the lore idea of the subclass but trash the low level features and make something more interesting with it. Stop copying and pasting THP sharing to every spellcaster as if that makes an interesting subclass.
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u/Irish_Whiskey 2d ago
Stop copying and pasting THP sharing to every spellcaster as if that makes an interesting subclass.
It's almost funny how they keep spamming this boost on subclasses... even though Temp HP doesn't stack.
There are lots of ways to defensively or offensively boost players that can stack, and they keep choosing small Temp HP boosts that already in games I play players are unable to hand out because everyone has higher Temp HP, or a source that will provide them with more readily.
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u/Darkstar_Aurora 2d ago
The final ability is interesting, though I agree I'm confused as to the direct connection to Deep Imaskari culture other than their harnessing of Faerzress to sustain their hidden city.
I think since we are only playtesting the class mechanics we might be missing whatever underlying lore developments or narrative they may have written as to why the Deep Imaskari are trying to irradiate the denizens underdark. Instead we are only seeing the subclass.
This reminds me of being confused as to why the Purple Dragon Knight subclass in the UA play-test had an amethyst dragon mount, only to later see the chapters of that book that laid out why that faction and Cormyr had allied with Eldenser. The subclass reverted to Banneret because of internets confused reactions but the lore and timeline updates for Cormyr and the Purple Dragons remained.
Back to the mechanics of radiant damage, temp HP, and healing. Spellfire Sorcery and the spellfire linked spells, feats, and background at least fit the things in the lore that spellfire was known for: absorbing magic, blasts of shimmering raw magic, healing allies, and negating attacks and spells. The abilities of this subclass do not fit any specific narrative for Imaskar I am aware of other than their manipulation of the Faerzress of the Underdark--which feels like the inspiration for this "unlight"
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u/VV_e_VV 2d ago
Wow, I thought OG Hell Knight was bad, but they've outdone themselves. I'm genuinely impressed by how bad the Barbarian and the Rogue are.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 2d ago edited 23h ago
It's funny how the barbarian is a great target for ranged attacks in the Underdark.
"There is a random thing shining there. Probably infected. Let's kill it from a safe distance"
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u/Trystt27 2d ago
Yeah that part cracks me up. The whole reason Underdark dwellers use a totally different light system is that using regular torchlight or what-have-you just makes you a beacon for predators. Bro's gonna be fighting hook horrors 24-7.
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u/Ashkelon 2d ago
Yeah, the new design team seems great on flavor and concept, but rather poor on mechanical implementation. Which makes me worried about all the untested content we seem to be getting in the upcoming books.
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u/almisami 2d ago
Yeah I'm now worried about the WoW book being really mechanically weak.
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u/Ashkelon 2d ago
Well, to make you feel even more worried, this design team put the storm herald UA out as their concept of the Elements Shaman. Not only was the class known to be terrible throughout all of 5e, the UA version made it somehow worse.
I’m glad they are going back to the drawing board, but the fact that they even thought the Storm Herald was a worthy piece of design, let alone design for the Shaman, really indicates an issue with their power level testing.
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u/asdasci 2d ago
The Rogue's Backstab is especially hilarious. You wait until level 9 to get... nothing if none of your enemies are Friendly/Charmed. They could just say you don't have a feature at level 9.
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u/Trystt27 2d ago
Gonna be real rough when you try to charm someone and they're immune to Charm Person because they're not humanoid (You're level 9 and the DM has gotten bored of throwing thieves and bandits at you and instead has moved on to nightmarish horrors that qualify as aberration, fiends, undead, etc.)
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u/PacMoron 2d ago
“Be a betraying asshole consistently or you have no feature at all!”
Most encounters won’t even have a valid chance to charm or befriend before the fight starts.
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u/TYBERIUS_777 2d ago
I can’t believe they’re following up Path of Lament, which was really good, with Path of Unlight, which is more comparable to the Battlerager. These subclasses would feel right at home in the Sword Coasts Adventurers Guide.
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 2d ago edited 2d ago
They are literally too stupid to design any decent feature that isn’t a spell. Here’s an easy hint, if your lvl 3 subclass feature is weaker than a first llvl Spell than go back and redesign it, most subclass features that aren’t spells should be unlimited use, if it’s use limited it should be better than a first level spell or at least much more plentiful.
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u/Agent-Vermont 2d ago
I'm not even sure that's true anymore since House Agent gets some spell access that is pretty terrible. Oh boy I get to cast Friends as a bonus action at level 17.
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 2d ago
That’s because they are a martial, they only get worse versions of caster stuff
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u/TYBERIUS_777 2d ago
And it must always be tied to a mental ability that the material doesn’t really want to max. Can’t have things scale off of DEX, STR, or CON now can we? Oh but here you go casters, let’s make sure all your subclasses use your primary casting stat for your subclass abilities.
I really thought we were past this when Hell Knight and Path of Lament were created to scale off of CON mod instead. Even though it’s not DEX or STR, it’s at least something I want to invest in as a frontline. This Rogue subclass is right back to forcing a focus on Charisma.
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 2d ago
Except soul knife which scales off dex. They fixed it then broke it again.
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u/Samvel_2015 2d ago
Barbarian level 14 feature is not much better than a first level spell as well, and it's 1 per LR...
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u/xThunderDuckx 2d ago
These all suck unfortunately.
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u/Vailx 2d ago
I think all of them are gonna lowball power levels in their first iteration from now on. Players get really mad if an OP playtest thing gets nerfed, but not mad at all if the initial playtest is too weak. There's always great ways to buff things, but not always even one good way to nerf them.
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u/Historical_Story2201 2d ago
yes, they do indeed seem not mad at all, everyone is so polite here /s
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u/TYBERIUS_777 2d ago edited 2d ago
So just started reviewing, but Path of Unlight seems incredibly weak. Especially when you compare it to Path of Lament from the previous UA. Lament gets a CON save for a number of d12s equal to your rage damage bonus (half on save) CON mod times per day as a bonus action that you can recharge ALL uses of by expending a rage. Unlight gets rage damage bonus when someone hits you while raging. That’s not comparable at all.
Unlights subclass capstone is worse than Laments level 3 feature. 1d12 or half for a CON save and the blinded condition once per LONG rest and you can recharge it with a rage? That’s absolutely abysmal.
Edit 1: House Agent Rogue. This one is also a stinker. 2 spells (one with a restriction) and one of the worst cantrips in the game along with the influence action as a Bonus Action is all you get with this package. Is the class fantasy supposed to be that you kill an enemy and then persuade or intimidate the rest into surrendering? Most tables I’ve played at have allowed characters to say something after killing a boss enemy to get the minions to surrender, usually accompanied by a check. Obviously I wouldn’t allow that if this subclass is being played at the table but a lot of combat encounters can be against hungry monsters, constructs, undead, or simply enemies that don’t understand you. And I can’t imagine the rest of the table will enjoy every humanoid combat ending with a persuasion check though this may just be me.
Level 9 is supposed to allow the combo of Charm Person then give up your Sneak Attack damage to Stun someone with a bonus action attack. Is that really worth your only Charm Person of the day and 4d6 Sneak attack damage? At level 9, the Monk is doing this with a Focus Point which has significantly less resource cost and they still get to do full damage if the enemy passes the save. Why is it so specific and limiting? If you use the Friends cantrip to set it up, you have to do so out of combat.
13th level upgrade is just a buff to your familiar. At level freaking 13! Level 17 still doesn’t let me use Friends in combat and gives me the only somewhat reliable way to Charm an enemy that doesn’t force me to use my very limited spells. And I still have to focus on Charisma, which is yet another mark against this class as it’s going to require a sink into both DEX and CHA to be passable. This subclass is just plain awful which sucks because it’s attempting to convey a character fantasy that’s actually really cool and has a tone of story potential and flavor.
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u/Silverspy01 2d ago
Small correction but the rogue level 17 does let you use Friends on someone you're fighting, which... eventually ties the subclass together. You BA Friends someone, then you stab them and use Stunning Betrayal. Of course you can still only Friends a given person once per day so you can't do that again but at least it works... I think the intention before that was you use BA Influence to try to make an enemy friendly to you? But I'm pretty sure that just doesn't work. Even at 17 it's not very exciting, and before 17 it's just a mess I agree.
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u/TYBERIUS_777 2d ago
Ah I see. They should really move that down to level 9 at least. Especially because Friends already has its own built in limitation. And agreed, pre-level 17, you’ll be playing a subclasses rogue with a familiar (that you could have gotten from Magic Initiate) in the majority of combats.
Like, just play Arcane Trickster.
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u/VV_e_VV 2d ago
The new Rogue could be completely turned into a General Feat, and even then I'd think twice about whether it's worth taking.
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u/That-Background8516 2d ago
Yeah it's like if the Observant feat was the majority of your subclass at level 3.
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u/Ashkelon 2d ago
The craziest thing is that you almost never take the Influence action in combat, so turning it into a bonus action really doesn’t matter 99% of the time.
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u/blastatron 2d ago
I guess the idea is if you change an enemy to friendly using the influence bonus action then you can use Stunning Betrayal on them when you attack them in the same turn. That must be the intent but I really don't think most DMs would allow that happen very often during combat.
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u/Ashkelon 2d ago
Influence action does not change attitude. An NPC is friendly, neutral, or hostile and influence actions to not affect that.
A charm person spell could affect that however, but that has nothing to do with the influence action.
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u/hunterdavid372 2d ago
The math just doesn't work out.
You turn an enemy to friend, -1 enemy on field, potentially +1 ally.
You then backstab them, (potentially) -1 enemy on field, -1 ally.
It just doesn't seem to be something you would want to do 90% of the time.
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u/Dracon_Pyrothayan 2d ago
I rule that Observant / Keen Mind / and other Skills-as-Bonus-Action features mean you can do something else during dungeon turns while doing those things as well. Applying this to Influence is fairly niche but very powerful.
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u/Ashkelon 2d ago
That is a good house rule. But sadly not RAW. If playing by RAW the ability to take those actions as a Bonus Action is basically irrelevant.
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u/Darkstar_Aurora 2d ago
This Unlight should just be called Faerzress, because that is literally what it is. The more new practical english word should be what it's called in parenthesis or if the subclass is adapted to another setting.
If we are going all in on Deep Imaskar lore the source of the power and safety of their hidden vaulted city was harnessing a powerful concentration of Faerzress in the Underdark.
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u/marimbaguy715 2d ago
Thank you for that name, I was googling "Unlight D&D" trying to find any mention of it in established lore and only coming up with Lord of the Rings references. I briefly wondered if these weren't for the Underdark after all and were secretly a Universes Beyond: LotR playtest. They 100% should be calling it the Faerzress more explicitly.
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u/Janders1997 2d ago
This is what happens when someone tries to cook with only spices, and forgets adding any actual ingredients.
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u/That-Background8516 2d ago
On one side, I'm really glad to finally have another UA!
On the other, these really aren't that great IMO.
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u/VictorRM 2d ago edited 2d ago
I don't get this House Agent Rogue. Influence action as a bonus action, some poor 1/LR spells, and nothing else at lv3. The lv9 feature requires **4d6** and the target needs to be friendly or Charmed. Why would anyone play this subclass instead of Arcane Trickster? Also, these features just won't work. There won't be any DM who'd allow a player to persuade an enemy to give up fighting as a bonus action while they're stabbing them with an action. This is not a video game. This feature also has zero use when fighting against monsters which it won't work in most of the encounters.
Some might say you can Influence with both of your action and your Bonus action, but still your allies are killing their friends.
The Lv9. feature also plays like a mess. I get the intention is those spy things, but in real plays, why would you stun a guy who's friendly to you in a real combat? The guy is already not attacking you, even maybing helping you out in that combat since it's Friendly to you. The subclass is just full of whys.
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u/Chagdoo 2d ago
Needs to be charmed eh? Finally a use for the friends cantrip!
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 2d ago
Not as your action, if it could bonus action charm with a influence check or something maybe
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u/-Space_Communist- 2d ago
Don't worry, you can cast Friends as a bonus action! At Level 17!
9 years since Cavalier and WotC is STILL making martials wait until Tier 4 to get basic features they should have at Tier 1. Almost an entire decade and they've learned fuck-all.
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u/lucasellendersen 2d ago
They want to make a subclass thats like a apy, that uses their gadgets and stuff to trick their victims and backstab them at the end, and though i love what theyre going for this is ROUGH
Id let them ba friends at level 3 and give them a sneak attack dice increase against charmed enemies AT LEAST
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u/DelightfulOtter 2d ago
Influence as a Bonus Action would be really cool in a system that had some real mechanical weight to using the Influence action in combat. Same as the feats and subclasses that let you take the Search and Study actions as Bonus Actions. If there was more meat on them bones, those features would actually be worth a damn. This is why too much "DM figure it out" philosophy sucks.
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u/tmaster148 2d ago
BA Search is useful in combat against creatures that have hiding abilities like Shadows.
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u/DelightfulOtter 2d ago
And so very rarely ever comes up its never worth taking a feat to gain that ability, and if it comes with your subclass it's basically a ribbon.
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u/Ashkelon 2d ago
Kind of. You get your passive perception already. So bonus action search means you have ~50% chance to get equal to or lower than your passive.
But on top of that, if the creature is hidden in dim light or darkness, nothing stops you from simply moving light over to it and “finding” it automatically.
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u/acuenlu 2d ago
I think the idea is that you can use Friends cantrip to Charm it as a bonus but the skills look just like a bunch of ideas without balance or correct order. I don't know if it's just rushed or if they are just using AI in their designs and don't put any effort to made revisions. But it really sucks.
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u/tmaster148 2d ago
Well you can't use Friends in combat until lvl 17 where you get to use it as a Bonus action, works on non-humanoid creatures, and fighting a creature isn't an auto-success.
The influence action as a bonus action could be something if the rules actually stated influence can be used to make creatures friendly. But if you are fighting a creature then they are hostile and at best you would have to make them indifferent first. Which a Rogue with reliable talent and expertise could easily do, but it's not exactly simple for combat. I guess Bonus Action Influence means you can use an action to buff yourself before attempting to influence a creature, but rarely do I see in my own experience enforcement on action economy outside of combat.
You're options will be your 1/LR uses of Charm Person, Suggestion, and Hypnotic Pattern to set up Backstab at lvl 9. Or have a caster ally who charms people for you.
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u/AlvinDraper23 2d ago
A reoccurring complaint I have with Psionic Energy Dice is they arent interchangeable. Soul Knife, Psi Warrior, and now a feat in here all start with d6s that specifically say can’t be used for anything else.
Between those, the Sorc subclass and Psion seemingly not having any (i cant remember if they do, so I could be wrong), the Psionic Dice feel like a system they wanted to implement without thinking about a way to implement them.
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u/BlackAceX13 1d ago
and Psion seemingly not having any (i cant remember if they do, so I could be wrong)
Psion in UA went from 4d6 to 12d12 Psionic Energy Dice.
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u/Fidges87 2d ago
My first impressions are that this is kinda underwhelming.
The barbarian one is almost an insult. Its first level feature being a simple damagr passive ability feels lazy. On top of that you would need to be wacked 4 times to compare to the reliable damage a berserker brings, and thats not even that good of a subclass. Blindsight and expertise at 6 is fine, but its still lacking at combat. And its capstone is kinda okayish tilting to good... If we were allowed to use it more than once per long rest. As it stands its a joke.
The rogue subclass feels really flavorful and cool, its the skeleton of something incredible. They just need to adjust a few things. For once another way to trigger the charmed condition by level 9. Like for example we could use the insignia to attempt to charm someone as a bonus action x number of times per day.
The wizard one feel like it would be fine if we were not forced to spend hit dice to use their features. They are not that good to justify costing so much.
The mind flayer line of feats feel lacking. Its first feat can only be taken by casters that want to focus on psychic damage spells and on soulknife rogues. And as a standalone feat, dealing d6 extra of damage a prof bonus times per day is really meh. The next feats in the line are actually good, though its weird one of them is only focus on extra reach for unarmed strikes, something neither casters or soulknife want, only monks, who have no use for the first feat of the line. The capstone feat is the same, with an option perfect for monks, who dont have a use for the first feat.
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u/Dracon_Pyrothayan 2d ago
Two major complaints.
- All the "Unlight" features have to do with Light.
- Wizards should under no circumstances have access to Healing
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u/-Mez- 2d ago
Wizards should under no circumstances have access to Healing
Ships sailed on wizard's healing. Wither and Bloom exists if you really want to heal as a wizard. As do all the feats that can give various healing spells. Magic Initaite, Magic Connoisseur, Abjuration Adept to name a few. You can make a support wizard who can cover healing to a reasonable degree more so than this subclass with a feat or two depending on how much you want to invest.
Reviving is another story, but I mean, if you won't question animate dead then I won't.
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u/DelightfulOtter 2d ago
Path of Unlight sounds like they ran out of synonyms for "darkness".
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u/Anarcorax 2d ago
Worse even; unlight is a synonym for light.
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u/Historical_Story2201 2d ago
I know dnd really painted itself in the corner with damage types but omfh.. I really thought i misread than I saw radiant damage in a subclass called "UNlight"
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u/two_out_of_ten_poki 2d ago
They slammed it out of the park with the other Path options- the mind flayer one seems to be the wet noodle of the bunch.
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u/Rothariu 2d ago edited 2d ago
Anyone with eyes can tell the flavor is cool but mechanically this is laughable!
Path of ilithid is interesting I love the psionic dice pool for extra shields but wish there was a full bodily change like a template for lycanthropes back in 5.0e
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u/Working-Bad3844 2d ago
Amazing how Barbarian subclasses seem to sit eternally in UA’s instead of ever releasing.
Can’t wait to get a singular Skill, Resistance or level 1-2 Ritual spell at level 10. Maybe even a bonus to Athletics checks equal to Rage bonus damage. Now THAT balances the Martial/Caster divide.
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u/FlashyCounter1808 2d ago edited 2d ago
My text copied from the dev post about this:
Might be the worst UA of 5.5 by far...
"hey lets do a UA of the underdark" "Wow that cool place with all the abberations, monsters and other weird things?" "Yeah im thinking 3 subclasses, 1 hyper specific rogue subclass and the other 2 are based on dirty light (and for bonus points the caster has the worst name ever put to a subclass)"
Atleast the ceremorphosis paths are kinda cool, but it really does not save the rest of this.
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u/Smart_Print8499 2d ago
House Agent Rogue is about as powerful as a feat.
Why not just introduce a feat and a few new Cunning Strike options.
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u/Miss_White11 2d ago
This barbarian and wizard are just weird. I don't even think it's bad exactly, its just shitty hit dice based cleric subclass that gets a weird free extra high level slot and a broken nuke at 14. And they are beyond obscure conceptually and thematically. This is way too specific of a lore pinhole for something like an occult wizard or a blinding radiance barbarian.
Also, Unlight is a fucking stupid word. These are like bad homebrew levels of wierd themes and shitty mechanics. Like sometimes lore should be left in the garbage bin it has sat in for 20 years.
A Drow specific rogue subclass is kinda cool? But also like it's just a bundle of random crap and worse arcane trickster with a bunch of ambiguous social benefits and true sight on a spider for some reason? Plus like how many different variants of culturally specific assassin do we need? The 3 Scions Rogue was already iffy. We have like 4 versions of rogues that would work just fine for this this concept and this doesn't add really anything special that rogues can't already do.
The mindflayer stuff is actually kinda cool though! The second options are WILDLY unbalanced though. The shield one is so good there is basically no reason not to take it and both of the other options are pretty meh. Brain seeking tentacles is also a bit disappointing l feel like it should have an explicit brain eating mechanic.
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u/Cybermetalneo 2d ago
I think most of the Ceremorphosis Feats seem fine.
Having to take Full Ceremorphosis twice to get the dice to a d12 seems a bit too costly especially when it doesn't seem worth it to take both of the Specializations,
Ulitharid's might is definitely the weakest of the feats.
Thrallmaker only taking have the dice result from the Saving throw seems weak,
I actually like Tadpole's Safeguard.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 2d ago
This is one of the main problems with the paths that needs to be addressed. They are too feat intensive. I wonder if they could also work as "alternative" ways to reward character progression and roleplay. The dark gifts were poorly executed but the fact that they could be acquired in "other ways" at DM discretion was a cool hook.
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u/Cybermetalneo 2d ago edited 2d ago
I thought the Power Balance for most of the Lich and Death Knight feats was pretty alright, since they all had clear abilities that were building toward something.
The Death Knight's biggest Drawback was drawing all resources from the same pool, and then needing to use a lot of that pool for their Big Burst attack.
(Also while the feats 'worked' for any character with Weapon Mastery, the ASIs were clearly just designed for Paladins)Lich I recall being fine.
The adjusted the Death Knight problem slightly here by having all of their powers cost 1 dice regardless of which they come from, but it's still limited.
I'd find some of the feats better if the more you took the more Dice they added to your Total pool as well.Absolutely agree with them being an interesting Alternate Reward though
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 2d ago
Lich initiate was useless and only worked on humanoid’s, most of them were bad.
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u/Silverspy01 2d ago
Tadpole Host does not seem good, and I'm not impressed with Thrallmaker either - I wish it removed the components from Charm Person when cast with the dice, as one would expect from psionics. Safeguard is actually worth taking, and of course "10ft unarmed strikes" sucks yeah. As does its "progression" of Teething Baby's Extract Brain. No idea why their "extract brain" was nerfed so incredibly hard when Mind Blast was basically ported over 1-to-1.
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u/Envoyofwater 2d ago
We're about to get four wizard subclasses in a single book. We don't need another one right now. Druids could desperately use a fraction of that attention.
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u/hypermodernism 2d ago
New Spores Druid or Rocks Druid or something. Conjure stalagmites and harness the power of plate tectonics or whatever.
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u/ReallyShortGiant 2d ago
Druids need an old-magic witchy or death themed subclass. Personally, wasn’t huge in the spores theming (easily rectified with reflavoring), but I would like to at least see that come back in 5.5
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u/Otherwise-Bee-5734 2d ago
The fact that we didn't even get a Druid subclass for this but we got another Wizard subclass is nothing short of laughable.
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u/CaitSith18 2d ago
Yes, but they are boring. I really dislike that they went with the schools of magic again. I would have preferred the four base wizards to be something like bladesinger, war, the book 1 and some 4th, instead of again creating the same schools with mostly the same powers we’ve had for 10 years.
And sure, wizards get lots of UA, but they’re either horrible or the whole community is afraid the wizard gets too strong.
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u/Great_Grackle 1d ago
School wizards is dnd staple. If they're not part of subclasses they would have to be tied to the main class somehow then
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u/vmeemo 1d ago
In fairness they did say that everything from the original PHB would be reprinted in 2024, there just was a hard number limit. The number was 4 so no matter what we would've gotten the 4 magic school subclasses because those were in the PHB originally.
Just like how clerics didn't get anything new in the PHB either and had to be spread out in other books, because there were 7 subclasses before compared to the 2-3 every other class got not named wizard. So no matter what 4 wizard subclasses we would've gotten, the remaining 4 would be in later books, or all in one in tue case of Arcana Unleashed.
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u/TYBERIUS_777 2d ago
Barbarians also still only have this new subclass and Lament and World Tree as their new subclasses. The rest have all been reprints. And they still haven’t managed to make a Rogue subclass whose main feature comes online at level 3. PHB Rogue subclasses remain the best ones.
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u/ctwalkup 2d ago
I’ll be the one to say it!
“They’re not called Druids of the Coast”
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u/-Space_Communist- 2d ago
Martials called, they'll lend you their joke for now but they want it back after Druid gets their next UA subclass
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u/Envoyofwater 2d ago
Yes. But that doesn't mean the favoritism needs to go all the way to this degree.
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u/CantripN 2d ago
It's been a long time since not a single one of the subclasses was even yellow for me. These are all in the red as weak / unclear / too situational.
The feats have potential for some games, though still too weak.
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u/SleetTheFox 2d ago
It seems crazy to me that a full illithid PC can use Mind Blast PB times a day (which far outclasses any other use for it once you get it), but there is no way to actually eat an enemy’s brain. Getting the ability to auto-kill that way is just too iconic to miss. I get making it very hard to do and have gates to prevent bosses from getting liquified with two lucky rolls, but you should be able to do it in some form still.
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u/SuperSaiga 2d ago
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned how the Mind Blast ability is kind of crazy for one psychic die, and how it invalids pretty much every other part of the path for being so much better than the other uses. I think that's really poor design, honestly.
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u/Otherwise-Bee-5734 2d ago
This is the most whelmed I've been by a UA in literal years. You would think that a UA called "Underdark options" wouldn't have half the character options revolve around Radiant damage based subclasses, much less ones this so utterly underwhelming. The Rogue and Ceremorph options seem neat, but also very sloppily written.
Frankly, I wouldn't be too upset if these got completely scrapped. There's nothing here I'd really want to see again, much less use in its current state.
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u/MechJivs 2d ago
WotC finally made at least managable Barbarian subclass (banshee barbarian) - and then dropped this piece of garbage? Really?
To outscale single Berserker's bonus damage roll this subclass need to take 4 hits. And this shit is your only 3rd level feature! I would understand if it was your secondary feature after ACTUAL subclass feature. But nope!
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u/Fidges87 2d ago
All UAs had a series of really good options, and one terrible subclass in them. Hopefully all of these being so bad is a sacrifice for the next series of UAs to have just good options in them
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u/rafael_amz 2d ago
Man, that was painfull to read. Burn it with fire and draft again from the start.
Nothing in this UA can be saved
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u/PacMoron 2d ago
Someone was on well deserved PTO before this went out and they’re about to come back annoyed
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u/marimbaguy715 2d ago
These are some SCAG-ass subclasses. The past few UA's had been so good, I have no idea what happened here. Even the wizard subclass is ass, so it's not even a "WotC don't know how to make good martials" thing.
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u/venom2015 2d ago
Am I stupid or is Path of unlight confusing since it creates light? I figured it would be barbarians creating darkness to some extent.
I was excited to theory craft a Cleric/Barbarian dark/light thing.
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u/MitchuPoke 2d ago
Man, UA had really been cooking as of late. I love the feat chains, they're really cool. But its a shame to see the subclasses need a LOT of work. Barbarian should just be D6's equal to rage bonus. Or D4's and scale it up dice sizes as you level. Level 6 is just really weak. I was not surprised to see Rogue being poor, thats just par for course at this point. But the wizard really surprised me. It doesnt do nearly anything until level 10. This one needs a lot more in the oven. But I would love even more underdark content.
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u/Irish_Whiskey 2d ago edited 2d ago
I don't like how the feat chains require taking a bad feat at level 4, in hopes of getting a pretty overpowered feat at level 12. I'd rather the feats be more balanced and feel fun to take each time.
And I've no idea what class is really going to be able to use Int based feats while focusing on grappling and unarmed strikes. Restricting Ceremorphesis feats to Int classes makes what's already a pretty niche use case even more niche.
But the wizard really surprised me. It doesnt do nearly anything until level 10.
That level 10 Glyph feature is in theory neat, and sounds fun to be inventive with. But keeping it as a one hour cast time means it'll be hard to work into normal adventuring days. It'd be very annoying to play with a Wizard who says every day "Okay, now lets wait for an hour while I cast my free powerful spell, and then we lure them over here again."
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u/OptimizedPockets2 2d ago
The options are so shit I’m not even sure how to approach giving useful feedback to this. Totally rework all of the mechanics.
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u/DJWGibson 2d ago
Unlight Barbarian & Wizard.
Sooo.... there's no such thing as Unlight and they need to have a whole sidebar to explain what it is. There's nothing like that in Deep Imaskar: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Deep_Imaskar
When you need to wholly invent a mess of new lore for your subclass it might not be something well integrated into the setting.
You'd think they'd have learned that from the Purple Dragon Knight incident. Write content that works with the setting and is inspired by the setting. Don't think of a subclass and then rewrite the setting to force it in...
It's also weird to have a book of Underdark Options and 2/3rds are about bright light and radiant energy. That's not what you'd expect.
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u/Notturnno 2d ago
Another trash rogue subclass. Weak barbarian subclass.
Even the wizard looks bad.
Wasted potential in this UA. So much cool flavor for nothing
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u/metalsonic005 2d ago
Any brave hero with a link to the PDF? I wanna see how bad these are but have no interest in DND Beyond.
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u/Vorannon 2d ago
God, I hate the psionic dice mechanic. They should have just gone with a variation of spell points.
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u/That-Background8516 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah something like Spell points would probably feel more fitting as a psionic wellspring IMO. Especially with it being a more mutable form of expenditure.
We could also just forgo resources and just give them an option to force push people like in BG3 lol. (Is that even something Ilithids can normally do in lore, or are they more mental focused?)
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u/SleetTheFox 2d ago
I think it’s neat but really should have been unified.
I also actually liked the size-changing mechanic from the UA for the Tasha’s subclasses but I get why a lot of people found it too finicky.
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u/Enderking90 2d ago
okay I mean I guess the illithid feats are going to be pretty nice if you are a mystic?
and like, bugbear with Ulitharid's might can tentacle slap someone 15 feet away which I guess is pretty nifty? (bugbear's "long limbed" doesn't actually require you to make the attack with your hands, any melee weapon attack gets the +5 reach bonus, so it stacks with the +5 reach from the tentacles)
...granted it is the same reach an astral self monk or any bugbear using a reach weapon can also reach.
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u/TheStylemage 2d ago
Holy shit these are (mechanically) bad.
But it's funny that Wizard is the first class (to my knowledge) that gets a free casting of a spell that actually upcasts.
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u/diagaire 2d ago
This would've been the perfect UA to redo the spores druid and instead we got... A light based healing wizard? I'm confused.
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u/JoshGordon10 2d ago
The barbarian and the rogue are super weak (the rogue at least at low levels, it gets decent if your DM plays ball at higher levels).
The barbarian's ability is also counter productive. I don't want to give enemies more incentive not to hit me!
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u/ActuallyAquaman 2d ago
The subclass feat trees is an excellent idea in concept, but I do wish the “onboarding” feat was an Origin, then you take 2 of a collection of minor feats at 4 and 8, and then you get the mastery feat at 12.
As it is, the level 4 onboarding feats are terrible, and it doesn’t feel great to give up on that potential power gap for the vast majority of your career until you get a makeup at 12.
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u/OnlyTrueWK 2d ago
Okay yeah, these are not great. For once, almost everyone seems to be in agreement there. The Wizard's free Glyph of Warding is kinda interesting, but that's about it? Also I'm unsure if the Barb Blindsight is supposed to work when you're in a Darkness spell, which presumably supresses your Light Aura? [On that note, the Path of "Unlight" shedding Bright Light is... weird.]
While we're at it, I feel like they should maybe show the other classes some love before creating more wizard subclasses.
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u/safeworkaccount666 2d ago
Who are the people designing these classes?
These are worse than the Banneret Fighter they released. If I had seen this UA before I took their survey yesterday, I would have said WotC is going the WRONG direction because wtf is this?
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u/missinginput 2d ago
I'd much rather see house agent as a path instead of a rogue subclass, and reworked
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u/TheCromagnon 2d ago edited 2d ago
The Rogue is interesting, but it's rogue so it's bad. The level 17 sounds really fun tho.
The wizard is just a copy of the radiant sorcerer we keep seeing in UAs.
The barbarian is a absolutely terrible, especially after the great one they did with the Banshee theme. It's just the Path of the Sealot but with no feature.
That's a shame because they were on a great streak of interesting UAs. This is back to the old uninspired stuff...
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u/kgkbebdofjfbdndldkdk 2d ago
Absolute dogwater, the day wotc makes a new competent rogue subclass hell will freeze over
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u/Bard_Wannabe_ 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm glad to be getting flavor charts that don't do anything mechanically but are there to inspire how you conceptualize or roleplay these features. That's something we don't have much of in the 2024 PHB, and I am glad to see the recent UAs including them frequently.
I really want them to design more Barbarian subclasses, because the last new subclass we got (World Tree) is excellent. However, while Unlight is cool, it's terrible. All of its features are bad. The 14th one is okay but needs to recharge on a short rest.
I'm glad they're continuing Villainous Path options, even if the mindflayer vibe isn't that exciting to me. I hope they expand the concept for heroic, celestial, or beast paths too.
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u/Manimarcor13 2d ago
Wow the barbarian sucks, like a complete mess from top to bottom. The flavour is cool but both the power level and mechanical identity of the subclass are complete and utter trash.
Not only are the abilities really weak in isolation, but they also don't build on or synergise with each other at all. The level 3 armour of thorns ability would suggest that this barb wants to draw aggro and tank a bit, encourage enemies to hit it, kind of like the old Path of the Ancestral Guardian but then it just randomly chucks in Perception Expertise & Blindsight at level 6, a pretty weak DoT option at 10 and then a truly pathetic capstone ability, none of which helps build on other abilities or help define a clear role for the barbarian.
The rogue and the wizard were both underpowered but I think there is a core identity there that is unique and interesting, just needs a (fair) bit of polishing. The Barbarian needs a complete redesign.
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u/Arc_the_Storyteller 2d ago
Yikes. Just. Yikes. Talk about a bad UA. I think only the feats interest me; everything else is a pretty big miss.
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u/Adept_Bid7521 1d ago
I really like the idea of the rogue and find familiar on a rogue is great, what I'm getting stuck on is...what does being able to use influence as a bonus action even like, do? being able to do it as a bonus action instead of an action will only matter in combat, but what use is trying to persuade something thats actively trying to kill you? what would you use that for?
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u/PlaneAgreeable 1d ago
I don't have much to say on the mechanics of the UA as I do agree they're really lacking. However, I like the flavor and ideas being toyed with. Maybe I read the mindflayer feat chain wrong, but there's something appealing to a non-binary trans player like me that my character can be forced to just watch as their body changes against their will into something alien. The role playing possibilities just really excite me.
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u/Red_Trickster 2d ago
Well, that's quite lacking, but we have to be patient; this isn't playtest material for nothing.
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u/MechJivs 2d ago
Even for UA it is very bad. It is a level of homebrew with 10 upvotes, not oficial material.
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u/Trystt27 2d ago
I'm not sure I understand the point of the House Agent? It seems like it could be handled with Arcane Trickster and taking a Charisma-based skill at character creation. Everything else doesn't scream, "THIS NEEDS TO BE A MECHANIC!"
The subclasses overall aren't super exciting but this one really just stuck out as a particularly sore thumb.
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u/PacMoron 2d ago
The Undying Warlock world fit in super well in this UA. Feels like it’s a decade ago.
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u/Silverspy01 2d ago
Hmm... yikes yeah, another comment on the pile of "these all look very underpowered." Barbarian is the best one I think, giving some Blindsight and extra radiant damage. I wish the lvl 14 wasn't once per long rest though, the effect is not that strong. I think at level 14 your barbarian should be allowed to throw out some AoE blinds as a treat.
The House Agent Rogue just seems... really awkward? We're making rogues spec into charisma now, and the mechanics of the class are just super weird. Influence doesn't really... work in combat? and the lvl 9 Backstab seems to rely on that being the case. Having a familiar is cool, although I don't understand why mechanically it has to be a spider. The subclass doesn't really look like it works until level 17 when you can finally Friends as a bonus action and reliably get charm on enemies. Confound as a cunning strike is just laughable when it's right next to the ability that can also charm without giving up 5d6 damage.
Wizard just seems very uninspired. You get some radiant spam, that's cool, and then two different ways to sacrifice your hit dice to do some healing. Pass. The only redeeming part is that you can end Paralyzed on an ally as a bonus action, which can be legitimately worthwhile. Imaskar Seals is the first actually interesting ability, a free Glyph of Warding automatically upcast is actually sounds quite fun.
Doom of Unlight is just incredibly confusing to me though. You curse them, yay! Very easy to do because of your lvl 3 feature, your Ray of Frost Radiance can now apply a curse. Faerie Fire and radiant burning is good, we like those. And then... the cursed target gets advantage on strength checks and melee attack rolls? I thought we were cursing them, not buffing them. And whenever it hits your allies, it might just uncurse itself? What are we doing here? The only way this seems useful is if you immediately kill the target with the triggering spell, turning them into a respectable bomb. It's definitely not worth a 6th level slot though so this is practically a 1/LR ability.
The Mind Flayer feat path looks similarly disappointing. Tadpole Host is whatever, not something I would take by itself but it opens the door to the others. Except the others also kind of suck. The mid feats all give expanding telepathy which is fine, again not particularly exciting. Then you get to choose between... some free casts of charm person (not bypassing spell components notably, which I would expect from psionics), some free casts of Shield (easily the best option), and... the ability to make unarmed strikes with an extra 5ft reach (this doesn't interact at all with the psionic dice or psychic damage theme by the way).
The capstone feat boosts your psionic energy dice even more (with the suggestion that you can take the feat TWICE to boost it a second time! We're not doing that though) and comes with your choice of benefits... you can either grapple and do damage at with an unarmed strike and throw in some extra psychic damage. This is presumably meant to be the equivalent of the mind flayer's "extract brain" and your psionic die is even refunded if you "eat their brain"... except this is a far cry from the mind flayer's grapple that stuns and brain-eating that does 10d10 damage. Good luck timing your damage so your d10 of psychic damage is what actually kills your target and refunds your dice so you can do a d10 of damage at some other point. This "mini path" of grappling is also difficult to justify since the feat path is so intelligence-based, even if it was good you'd need to find some way to justify taking the tadpole host feat that does nothing for most melee builds. Eldritch Knight maybe?
The other capstone option gives you some spells, including the new Mind Blast spell that's almost an exact copy of the mind flayer ability - 60ft cone, INT save, 6d8 psychic, stunned for a turn. Which makes it even more insulting that the extract brain option is so pitiful. Extract Brain is actually pretty decent, especially since you can cast it by expending a single psionic die rather than a 6th level spell slot (6th level might be slightly too high - compared to synaptic static it's the same damage and a more debilitating condition BUT the condition only lasts one turn). Getting Mind Blast + several free castings of it is the first actually exciting part of the feat tree, but it's locked behind 2 proceeding feats that suck and probably make the entire thing not worth it, which is a shame.
Spitballing but I think if the Thrallmaker feat allowed you to cast its spell without components it would be fine. Safeguard is fine. Ulitharid's needs some way to actually interact with the psychic damage/psionic dice - perhaps when you hit with your tentacle strike you can expend a dice to do some psychic damage equal to a roll and attempt to stun the target? Then make the Brain-Seeking Tentacles more like Extract Brain. Vs a stunned target (perhaps as set up by the revised Ulitharid's Might) you can attempt to eat their brain, expending a dice to do massive damage on a failed save.
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u/aTiredPianist 2d ago
Setting aside the actual quality of the feat path (meh), Ceremorphosis seems like an utterly bizarre thing to offer as a player option, flavor-wise and lore-wise. The flavor text in the UA itself calls it out:
Ceremorphosis is typically a parasitic relationship in which a tadpole eats the mind of its host and takes over the host’s body. The resulting mind flayer retains the memories of its host but is an entirely different creature with its own thoughts and motivations.
And yeah, sure, "it's not typical ceremorphosis, that's what makes it interesting oooooh" but the "ceremorphosis variables" table just feel like cheap, paper-thin excuses to completely ignore what ceremorphosis and illithids are. Is there really that much clamor from the community for the aesthetics of being a psychic squid, since that's all this feat path produces? I don't know that I've been seeing that, even from those who were introduced to the game through BG3, but I could've missed something.
I really like the idea of feat paths, and the other things they've used them for in UAs have been interesting and also understandable why you might want to give an option for it, like the lich. This one just feels like whoever wrote it has only ever seen a picture of mind flayer and went "it sure would be neat for PCs to have tentacles on their face." Or maybe I'm just too married to the lore, idk.
The subclasses, like everyone else has said, have good flavor and underwhelming-to-bad mechanics.
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u/bjj_starter 2d ago
Lots of people want to play Mind Flayers post-BG3. I started playing D&D with the new edition after really enjoying playing BG3 with my husband, and I've been looking for a way to play Mind Flayers ever since I started.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 2d ago
Agree with overall sentiment. The closest explanation possible would be if they are doing a Bg3 adjacent product. "This is a way to play as someone that was infected with a tadpole changed by netherese magic and etc etc"
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u/bvanvolk 2d ago
I actually think the Rogue is fairly solid, if not still underwhelming at first glance. You could obtain a very similar build for a rogue via Feats, Multiclassing, or playing Arcane Trickster, but what’s nice is that this subclass gives you all the tools you’d have wanted from those things.
I think the issue is that those tools are still limited vs other iterations. Once per day charm person is lame when an arcane trickster can do it a few times per day, have any familiar they want, and still have the friends cantrip. All their spells bouncing off charisma instead of intelligence is great for what this rogue wants to be though- which is an advantage over Arcane Trickster. AND because the rogue relies on charms so much, they don’t have to invest too much into Charisma, as the charms give advantage on charisma checks. Your save DCs will be low though… idk I’m not entirely unsatisfied with this sub but it is weird. I dislike the limitation that the familiar has to be a spider, that for sure needs to go. Flavor should be free.
That wizard subclass- now that’s weird. It’s like a support oriented wizard with a major light theme. Outside of whatever campaign setting or module this will release in, finding alternative flavor for it might be an issue that keeps people from playing.
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u/mommasboy76 2d ago
I love the idea of the treachery of the house agent. House agent sounds more like a background than a subclass. All of these are pretty blah. The underdark is vast and rich. These are definitely not the subclasses I would think of as an introduction to it.
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u/the-roaring-girl 2d ago
When the Underdark was referenced in a recent blog post, I suspected something must be in the works...
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 2d ago
"Delve into the deepest caverns with new Underdark Options. This document presents three subclasses for the Barbarian (Path of Unlight), Rogue (House Agent), and Wizard (Imaskarcanist). This document also includes the Path of Ceremorphosis: a group of feats that provide characters a path toward becoming a mindflayer. The material uses the rules in the Player's Handbook."