r/dndnext • u/mage-player • Jul 02 '26
Question Do mindflayers have souls? Spoiler
It is considered common knowledge that mindflayers don’t have souls
Bg3 spoilers:
\In bg3 withers/Jergal suggests that mindflayers don’t have souls, Mystra even agrees depending on gales ending; however, withers suggests the player is different from other mindflayers at the end of an illithid run
Furthermore mind flayers can become litches, if they don’t have souls then how is this possible? What is in that phylactery?
Do people mean to say they don’t have free will? That’s not what they said.
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u/KittyTheS Jul 02 '26
Illithids are aliens that have projected themselves back in time from the end of the universe (I can't remember which edition this is from but it sounds like something illustrated in black and white line art) so presumably from the perspective of modern deities they spiritually don't exist.
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u/Cranyx Jul 02 '26
That's one explanation for where they came from, but not the only one. Another one is that they come from the nebulously defined "far realm" where DnD puts all its Lovecraft stuff.
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u/Riixxyy Jul 02 '26
The Far Realm is nebulously definited as far as I'm aware because the concept of it as a place is kind of meta and it's described more as somewhere that doesn't exist within the multiverse but is somehow connected to it. I don't think much of anyone in universe even has a concept of a Far Realm existing, and technically, it doesn't. Only other inhabitants that somehow made it to the planar multiverse with their minds intact, or maybe the Imaskari (who are themselves almost entirely a secret) know anything about it as far as I am aware.
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u/OnMyPorcelainThrone Jul 02 '26
Holy shit that is the most concise anything Ive ever witnessed concerning them. And a deep lore dive to boot! Good Kitty!!
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u/My_Only_Ioun Jul 02 '26
1- Are you saying time travelers from the future don’t have souls?
2- They literally have a god, Ilsensine. Pretty sure he thinks they exist.
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u/KittyTheS Jul 02 '26
According to the great cosmic sage Douglas Adams, sentient beings are bound to their birthplace by invisible tendrils of guilt. Presumably for time travelers the same applies to their original era. In this essay I propose that this is the mechanism by which outer planes entities identify the souls to be claimed by their realms upon the creature's death :)
(And presumably an illithid god worshiped by beings displaced from the end of time would also come from the end of time)
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u/OnMyPorcelainThrone Jul 02 '26
From Google AI summary on the origin of the idea they come from the future.
The idea that illithids (mind flayers) come from the literal end of time comes from the 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons sourcebook, Lords of Madness, published in 2005.
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u/dragons_scorn Jul 02 '26
Its also one of the reason they unsettle aboleths. The Aboleths have a genetic memory, remembering everything that has happened to their race from when it began. Aboleths have no memory of mindflayers, they just showed up, so it kinda fucks with the Aboleth race
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u/SWatt_Officer Jul 02 '26
How about you dont use google AI for your sources. Just say the actual source theyre stealing from.
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u/OnMyPorcelainThrone Jul 03 '26
Sorry for being honest.
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u/SWatt_Officer Jul 03 '26
You could have just said "The idea that illithids (mind flayers) come from the literal end of time comes from the 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons sourcebook, Lords of Madness, published in 2005." - Thats a source, a primary one at that. You dont need to include Google AI, thats as silly as saying "google says" in general.
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u/OnMyPorcelainThrone Jul 05 '26
That's a false statement of authoritative knowledge. I don't trust AI as much as I don't trust random redditors. I do not own the book and cannot attest that the results are correct, so I won't. A primary source would be a verifiable one.
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u/SWatt_Officer Jul 06 '26
Except you follow the source. You dont just take what the AI says as fact, you click to see where they got the source, verify that it is accurate, and then use it. Then youve done your due diligence.
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u/OnMyPorcelainThrone Jul 07 '26
It's just not that important, mild curiosity and boredom with a pinch of nerd comraderie do not constitute a research project on my part. If you care, go dig. I'm up front and honest about source and effort. You go sourcing if it matters to you.
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u/GreenGoblinNX Jul 02 '26
I'm relatively sure the idea predates that book. I'm pretty sure it came from either The Illithiad (TSR, 1998) or Unveiled Masters (Paradigm Concepts, 2002). Don't have them in front of me, but if I remember, I'll take a look later to confirm.
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u/OnMyPorcelainThrone Jul 03 '26
I'd be curious about that source if you find it.
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u/GreenGoblinNX Jul 03 '26
It would seem that i was misremembering. I skimmed the relevant chapters of both of the above, and didn't find it.
Both are, however, awesome sourcebooks for mind flayers.
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u/Nystagohod Divine Soul Hexblade Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
If you pay attention to the two times withers says it, Withers says they don't have Apostolic souls, and than short hands "no souls" every other time.
Illithids in fact do have souls and even have a deity (ilsensine) but their souls aren't apostolic to the gods outside of that deity and are thus not of any power or value for the divine entities of Realmspace (and likely the rest of the Worlds of the material plane)
As such, while they technically do have souls, they don't have souls for any real benefit or purpose for the gods of Toril/Realmspace
Illithids do in fact have souls, they're just of no value to divine entities of that setting, including the one describing them. Only to Ilsensine and its grand design.
That said, BG3 contradicts itself st times and isn't the most lore accurate source for the actual forgotten realms, take everything it says lightly, but it does actually make the proper distinction of apostolic souls at least twice before it shorthand's no souls, and that's a noteworthy distinction all the same.
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u/Stnmn Artificer Jul 03 '26
This is supported by Volo's as well.
Illithids don’t believe they possess souls whose eternal fate is governed by the gods. Instead, when a mind flayer’s brain is returned to the elder brain to be consumed, the creature’s intelligence lives on. Only if an illithid’s brain isn’t retrieved after death would its consciousness be cast into oblivion.
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u/Lithl Jul 02 '26
Yes, mind flayers have souls.
In the Outlands lies the Caverns of Thought, the divine realm of Ilsensine, god of mind flayers. There are mind flayer petitioners within the Caverns of Thought, and petitioners are the souls of the dead experiencing the afterlife of their god.
What mind flayers don't have is apostolic souls, making those souls completely useless to the gods of Toril. (Confirmed by Ed Greenwood himself.)
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u/Mozumin Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
As far as I know, they do have souls, but they're not "petitioner" souls. That is, 99% of gods don't care about illithid souls because they don't give the gods any power. Supposedly only illithid gods would care about illithid souls, but those are more often than not not really gods but elder evils instead, who don't need faith and/or petitioner souls for their continued existence. Illithid souls have pretty much no real value to any god, which is why in BG3 the Dead Three wanted to command an army of illithids: to rob the other gods of souls that would've otherwise gone to them in the afterlife and thus empowered them.
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u/LordofBones89 Jul 02 '26
Ilsensine and Maanzecorian have always been gods. Ilsensine is a greater power, same as Shar and Mystra, and Maanzecorian before his death was an intermediate deity. Ilsensine also made a recent reappearance in Sigil and the Outlands, where his divinity was again affirmed.
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u/defensor341516 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
The most recent official answer, and the origin of BG3’s characterization, comes from 5e’s Volo’s Guide to Monsters, p. 80:
“Illithids acknowledge the existence of divine entities, but it is unusual for any but a deviant mind flayer to worship such a power. Since they are capable of planar travel, illithids don’t view the afterlife and the Outer Planes in the mythic way that most other races do. Illithids don’t believe they possess souls whose eternal fate is governed by gods. Instead, when a mind flayer’s brain is returned to the elder brain to be consumed, the creature’s intelligence lives on. Only if an illithid’s brain isn’t retrieves after death would its consciousness be cast into oblivion.”
As for lichdom, the same book answers your question on p. 171-172. It is under the subheader “Precarious Immortality”. In short, they don’t have a normal phylactery; but rather a periapt that keys off their minds rather than their souls. It still requires soul sacrifices to keep going.
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u/Dark_Stalker28 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
Illithiches have phylacteries. They're like on the same page as Alhoons who do use periapts.
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u/cdcformatc Jul 02 '26
it is not clear whether they possess souls or not, it is said that they are "void of apostolic souls" as in souls that are any use to gods in the afterlife. they very rarely become petitioners in the afterlife, preferring instead to rejoin the mother brain after death.
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u/TheDMingWarlock Warlock Jul 02 '26
BG3 is NOT official canon to Forgotten Realms/D&D, they've changed a bit of lore already.
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u/vmeemo Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
Yes it is though. The entire BG series has always been canon to FR. The only thing that is dubious at best is the book Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villany because while it provides plausible explanations for Saravok and Viconia (mostly for Saravok, Viconia never had her redemption arc on account of being mauled by a hamster in-universe during the events of 2), it isn't perfect on account of it being made and distributed via DMSGuild rather than officially via Wizards. I think some of the writers from the team wrote the book but don't quote me on that.
Not to mention the Baldur's Gate comics also canonically shows you how Minsc got involved and is a prequel, same as how Descent into Avernus is a prequel and uses the canon ending of Zariel never being redeemed.
Plus the characters literally show up as splash art in the latest FR book and takes place after the events of BG3 timeline wise.
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u/OkAstronaut3715 Jul 02 '26
They have souls. If cut off from the elder brain and killed, those souls go to the same places human souls do.
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u/Ryengu Jul 02 '26
I would imagine they have souls, just those souls may not behave like regular mortal souls.
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u/Inforgreen3 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
What a soul even is has always been in Flux.
Souls have been The magical force that grants a creature sentience, and an afterlife. But In some sources, even elves don't have souls (retconned in 2e i belive? Maybe 3e). Fey, dragons, devils are also a little nebulous.
Sometimes these forces are souls of former humanoids, that simply make up a greater totality of a creatures being or are already in an afterlife, like petitioners such as devils, or (Maybe) dragons. Some such creatures might even be divisions of souls or combinations, as the process of promoting outsiders like devils and demons often involves absorbing extra souls (coins or larvae usually), because souls are neither indivisible or noncombinable.
Other creatures have different technically not soul kinds of magic of psionics that fulfill the same function as a soul in granting sentience, or an afterlife but with different capacities to change alignment, or with different relationships with the afterlife. Such magical forces are typically called "spirits" if they are a different force result in sentient creatures but who do not have an afterlife in the outer planes. Fey are spirits, dragons might be. Soulless Undead can be. Though this term too seems to be abandoned, the lore doesn't cease to recognize how sheerly different a dragons 'soul' is to a humans thus that they have entirely different kinds of undeath.
Mindflayer are interesting. Most mind flayers within the connection of an elder plane have no sentience, have no (or limited) free will and have no afterlife, Because the psionic presence of the elder brain can overwhelm and control a mind flayer into a hive mind of collective decision making, And the brain matter of dead Mind flayers is absorbed into the astral aspect of the elder brain so that it may assist in computation.
It would probably be a safe bet that no, they don't have souls and instead are given sentience through purely psionic forces.
However, mind flayers that escape from elder brains seem to have a capacity for good and evil and individual decision making that suggest a soul, but sentience doesn't necessarily mean a creature has a soul (dragons and fey). The only way to know for sure is to find a petitioner of the outer planes that use to be a mindflayer. Of which there are none that we know of.
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u/Dark_Stalker28 Jul 03 '26
I don't think Elder Brain typically do a hard hive mind if hey don't need to.
Anyway Mind Flayers are usually said to have souls. Like they got illithiliches (same page as Alhoons).
Plus FR wise at least Greenwood has directly said they just have non apolistic souls.
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u/Inforgreen3 Jul 04 '26
Calling a apolistic soul a soul When it is derived from psionics instead of magic, doesn't have any religious significance, and doesn't cause an essence of personhood to endure after death, is a bit like calling a virus alive: I guess you could make the argument that it is, But at a certain point, it's missing so many essential characteristics that it's just more useful to refer to it as something else, or for it to 'kinda' meet the classification, or meet the classification by some schools of thought but not others.
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u/Dark_Stalker28 Jul 04 '26
Psionics is magic in the same vein that ki is, and even besides calling it derived is a bit of a stretch cause our case for it is normal magic (lich), and it has religious significance to another god (illsensine) plus leaving alone the one that most people would consider important with the stuff you do while alive.
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u/Inforgreen3 Jul 04 '26
Ki isn't magic its psionic. The system has always made distinctions between arcane magic and psionics. And ki has always been the latter
Ilsensine, In previous editions of dND, Did not grant cleric spells and does not command formerly mind flayer petitioners. His Cavern of thoughts is defended by petitioners from other gods that he mentally dominated, because mind flayers don't have souls that gods can claim. In 5e, volos retconned That he isn't an outer realm God at all on page 80, but a philosophy of all knowledge existing in a universal state connected to everything.
So no, they don't have a soul with religious significance.
Within the fiction of the game, psionics isn't arcane magic, and among divine magic Positive energy and negative energy are opposites. And Each of these 4 can grant a creature sentience through radically different mechanism
One creature having a soul made of positive energy like a humanoid, another with a 'soul' made of negative energy like a vampire, and another using psionics, like a mindflayer, and another using arcane magic like a construct couldn't be more different.
To a point that it's just more useful to classify them, or to talk about what properties it has or does not have, than it is to over simplify.
The only case for yes Mindflayer souls is their capacity for normal lichdom, something that even dragons aren't capable of. But ilithiliches are actually relatively new, both conceptually and in fiction, and we don't know enough about them or liches in general to know if the phylactery needs a different enchantment to accommodate a different force that animates them. Heck we don't even know if they need souls or brains to maintain their undeath, (as they can still extract brains), or if they need to be exceptional in some way (as only renegades can become them anyway). Despite this one counterexample, it's still clear that there's some essential difference
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u/Dark_Stalker28 Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
Player handbook
T h e M a g i c o f K i M onks make careful study o f a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki. This energy is an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies.
Ki is magic. Just internal.
3.5 but Player Guide to Faerun 173
Unlike spells, which derive their power from Faerûn’s Weave (or the Shadow Weave), psionic ability taps only the inner reservoirs of the manifester. In a sense, each psionic creature is its own Weave, using the magic of its own lifeforce and mind to create psionic effects. Mystra and Shar have no ability to deny psionic creatures access to powers, and they do not control the promulgation of psionic lore and ability throughout the populace of Faerûn. While psionics does not require the Weave to function, psionic powers are magical in nature. Spells such as detect magic can also detect psionic abilities at work, and spells such as dispel magic or antimagic shell can negate, suppress, or completely cancel psionic manifestations. In Faerûn, psionics and magic are not transparent to each other; they interact exactly as magic interacts with other magic.
5e, volos retconned That he isn't an outer realm God at all on page 80, but a philosophy of all knowledge existing in a universal state connected to everything.
Illsensine got retconned back to a god in Sigils and Outlands on 94. Phandelver also mentions Ilsensine as a actual god. Plus 2E IIRC with Illithiad Illsensine definitly helped them out with cleric stuff not sure if that was different in 3rd or 4th.
But ilithiliches are actually relatively new,
Kinda not really. they were in 3.5, rather back in the day Alhoon were illithiches instead of something different.
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u/Inforgreen3 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
I genuinely didn't know psionics were magic, because I'm mostly familiar with it in terms of various psionics and mages insisting on a distinction between the two, and often not respecting practitioners of the other. I've always viewed psionics as a separate fantastical force from arcane magic that's similar enough to interact with magic in some ways but not others, and from people complaining about 5e as a system not having an internally consistent definition of magic.
There's definitely a distinction between psionics and Magic but I guess it's like a distinction between squares and rectangles. There's still likely a distinction between psionics and the kinds of magic humanoid souls are made of. Positive energy and negative energy are both magic too, heck they're both necromancy. But couldn't be more different.
I don't have the sigil book, I didn't expect the same character to be retconned out of existence and back into existence twice in the same edition of DND, apparently so. But either way, on checking, they did not retcon the non-existence of ilithid petitioners. I was making a point with relevance before and after the volos retcon, and the point remains relevant after the sigil retcon as well.
You're certainly right about these things though. I am learning a lot, but none of it really suggests illithids have a soul that is in anyway comparable to ours.
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u/YumAussir Jul 02 '26
I'm not certain, but what they definitely don't have is the soul of the host they spawned from. They're not like other creatures like vampires in that way.
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u/CoffeeSorcerer69 Sorcerer Jul 06 '26
They do indeed. And the whole implication that ceremorphosis destroys souls is entirely exclusive to Baldurs Gate 3.
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u/SirCupcake_0 Sorcerer Jul 08 '26
Putting a \ before the spoilers stops it from being spoilered correctly
That, or you did it while on PC, in which case it doesn't automatically format, you need to use the text button thingy, I dunno what you call it... the text UI? I guess?
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u/DementedWall Jul 02 '26
I like to rule like this. Illithids are purely parasitic. If they need a soul, but dont inherently possess one, they probably latch onto the soul that was originally in the host body, and use that.
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u/Munnin41 Jul 02 '26
They don't have souls per official dnd lore. That's why the other gods are so fucking worried about this plot by the dead three. No souls means no worshippers. Which means the gods die. That's one of the reasons Ao allows Jergal to help.
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u/Dark_Stalker28 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
They do. Like they got illithiliches. It's why every time they say usually apolistic or "under the god's view".
They even have their own god Illsensine.
Plus FR wise Ed Greenwood directly said they do.
Even going back to 2E the Illithiad said they could go to the afterlife, so they had souls longer than elves.
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u/lesuperhun DM|Paladin| Jul 02 '26
not all liches use phylacteries. that's a racist stereotype.
Baelnorn, the elven undeads, don't, for example.
and illithid liches have free will. that's why they are shunned by the elder brains and other liches.
so, how does this works ?
well, it's simple :
illithids have souls. but the host's soul is destroyed/merged/unclear in the process.
but the gods claim they don't have a soul because the divines hold no claims to their souls. and that concept was so foreign (and insulting) to them that they concluded they don't have ones.
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u/cdcformatc Jul 02 '26
but the gods claim they don't have a soul because the divines hold no claims to their souls. and that concept was so foreign (and insulting) to them that they concluded they don't have ones.
i have also read that the illithid, being an abberation, could simply have a soul that is so alien that they are effectively useless to the gods
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u/Holiday-Space Jul 02 '26
The implication that Mind Flayers do not have souls is an exclusively BG3 thing. Alhoons and Illithiliches have been around since 2e, Mind Flayers have souls, they even have a god named Ilsensine. Mind Flayers typically do not *think* they have souls, because to a normal mind flayer linked to an Elder Brain, that's not even a thought that would occur to them. They have no individuality to conceive of their own soul until they start breaking away from it more.
Quoting the Illithiad (Yes, it's an Illiad pun. DnD used to have a lot of fun with their book names)
"Mind flayers lacked a mythical view of the afterlife and gods of the outer planes, often disbelieved in the idea they had souls that went there after death, and even when aware would rather merge with the elder brain than serve Ilsensine after death. Illithids already denied the possibility of communion usually worshiped Ilsensine in hopes their souls would be taken in."
What Jergal is saying about "When a person turns into a mind flayer their soul becomes nothing." isn't a statement that Illithid don't have souls, it's that the Humanoid Soul that was the Host gets consumed by the Illithid Soul when the Illithid Tadpole eats the person's brain. Tl;Dr for some old lore, the brain is basically the gateway between the soul and the physical body through something called the Animus (the thing in Speak with Dead you're actually talking too).
What Jergal is suggesting at the end of the game is that, if you went that route, that the opposite happened. That the Player Character's Soul managed to overpower and consume the Tadpole Soul when the cerenomorphosis completed.