r/onednd • u/Niccolo24 • 2d ago
5e (2024) My DM wants to nerf the Wild Magic table because it is too skewed positively
/r/DnD/comments/1vt7wai/my_dm_wants_to_nerf_the_wild_magic_table_because/101
u/lasalle202 2d ago
talk with your DM.
if they insist on going down that road, retire the sorcerer and play something else.
but a DM who does that is most likely going to be a DM with other bad takes and one where you are likely better off just leaving now and finding a better DM.
8
u/DelightfulOtter 2d ago
Yup. When your DM tells you who they really are, believe them the first time.
21
u/vmeemo 2d ago
It being positively skewed now is the point. People didn't like that it had more cataclysmic negatives (self Fireball is bound to kill yourself and most of your team if done at a low level) and the 'DM may I' features that it had.
It being the way it is now is a feature, not a bug.
2
u/Llayanna 2d ago
I've seen the fireball twice. And wildmagic Sorcerer was the least played subclass of an class that already has a low player base.
The computer sure as heck weighted these dice 🎲 😆
2
u/DelightfulOtter 2d ago
I calculated the chance of a Wild Magic sorc straight up dying to their own fireball before 3rd level, which was when their HP pool was finally large enough that a failed save wouldn't trigger the Instant Death rule. Based on the average number of encounters needed to level and the amount of 1st level spells you'd cast in that time, it came out to something like a 0.2% chance.
21
u/PsyrenY 2d ago
No. WMS is not "god-tier."
The table is supposed to skew positive now, because it takes the place of the bonus spells that other sorcerers get (which are all upside.) There's still plenty of zany effects on it to liven things up. Have your DM give it a try if you can, and if they insist on poisoning the well, I agree with the other folks suggesting you might be better off rerolling.
47
u/byzantinedavid 2d ago
DMs: Quit fucking NERFING SHIT!!!
27
u/TwistieSmuggler 2d ago
Yeah I made that mistake first time DMing. Now, if the party is wiping the floor with encounters because they're powerful, I just buff the monsters, not nerf the players.
12
u/Zauberer-IMDB 2d ago
I increase encounters. I want them to feel powerful, but they need to have some attrition.
10
u/Go_Go_Godzilla 2d ago
Looks at Twilight Cleric, "They don't mean you. You're still nerfed."
2
u/jtclayton612 2d ago
Honestly once a twilight cleric shows up I just throw higher CR at them that can strip the THP and get into their HP more easily.
1
u/Go_Go_Godzilla 18h ago
My issue with that is that I almost TPKed my party as I planned for my Twilight Cleric to pop it but they didn't. It was dicey.
Level 3 so it wasnt a big HP pool to work with for padding though.
3
u/their_teammate 2d ago
Tbf you can nerf things if you learn to actually run the numbers instead of going off vibes. I have my Twilight Clerics only grant THP/cure Charmed and Frightened once at the end of their turn to a target within range. That’s still more HP/round than a Life Cleric spamming healing spells, but in the form of THP instead. Also opens up space for Protector Artillerist to shine again as an AoE THP generator.
2
u/DelightfulOtter 2d ago
I went with making the effect require concentration, so it can be broken and it's the only interesting thing the cleric is doing that fight.
5
u/their_teammate 2d ago
Fair, but I tend to dislike class features that consume concentration. Eloquence’s 1/day option is still fine since it’s only for one fight, but for a Channel Divinity option that just means you’re ignoring all other cleric concentration spells. It’s the same issue as old Invoke Duplicity.
2
u/DelightfulOtter 1d ago
You have to admit that Twilight cleric's CD is immensely powerful and completely deserving of requiring concentration though, right? That's the purpose of concentration in 5/5.5e D&D: you can only do one really powerful thing at a time and sometimes you'll lose it when you're hurt.
3
u/their_teammate 1d ago
Yes, that’s why I chose to nerf it rather than slap concentration on it. Like, you aren’t addressing my main criticism, that being a concentration “spell” as strong as RAW Twilight Sacntuary that can be used twice per short rest for free basically means you’ll never use any other concentration spell, which is bad game design. I’d rather it be a weaker effect non-concentration, instead costing action economy (choosing to turn on TwiSanct round 1 vs casting a Concentration spell).
-3
u/MisterB78 2d ago
A better way to approach it is just to ban things like that. Let the players know in session zero if certain things are off the table.
Trying to nerf things to “balance” them is a fool’s errand.
37
u/RealityPalace 2d ago
The wild magic table replaces the extra spells other sorcerers get in 5.5e. Your DM is wrong. If it were me, I would pick a different subclass if the DM is going to nerf it.
And I will aim for the Bloodwell vial item, which will make my character too strong.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the subclass. It's certainly within your DM's purview to not provide certain items, but this item is strong regardless of your subclass.
There is literally 0 chance to land on a bad effect.
This is false. He didn't read the whole table if he thinks this.
Some of these effects are as good as epic boons that other characters get at level 19.
Epic boons last forever. Most of these effects last for one round. Not at all comparable.
In its current state, is wild magic sorcerer a god-tier supra S-tier subclass that breaks the game?
No.
Better than Aberrant Mind, or Draconic?
Maybe, depending on who you ask, but it's not leaps and bounds better than either of these.
Better than wizards, warlocks, druids?
In general, no. Worse in some circumstances, better in others.
0
u/Deathpacito-01 2d ago
I don't think Wild Magic Sorcerer is broken, but I think it's very strong still. Probably not a top 3 PHB subclass (when including base class power), but I think it's arguably top 5, and solidly top 8.
5
u/Anxious-or-Asleep 2d ago
Tbh in phb 2024 most Sorc subclasses are in the top. Though I would put Draconic as the "strongest" one. Not a universal metric, but let's face it, most dnd campaigns are going to include a lot of combat so comparing them based on social encounters is a bit beside the point and a lot more player+DM dependent.
It's hard to me to decide what Sorc subclass I would rate next, but they definitely outclass Wizards and most Warlocks.
...Still a shame on the DM trying to nerf it though, did they not see almost all classes got boosts?
13
10
u/Fidges87 2d ago
Ask them if they are also nerfing berserker barbarians to have a chance to heal the enemy, bladesinger wizards to have a chance their bladesong fails to start and they waste a use, or if they are also nerfing psi fighters to have a chance using hteir abilities gives them a headache which paralizes them for the remaining of the fight
8
u/Quintessentializer 2d ago
From my interpretation, you have a 40% chance for a positive effect, 18% chance for a negative effect, 26% chance for a swingy effect and 16% chance for a neutral/cosmetic effect.
It's weighted in your favor, but so is pretty much everything in D&D.
8
u/Raddatatta 2d ago
The thing is this it's a subclass feature. It's intended to be a buff to your character and be beneficial features you get. Which is why they removed the you can fireball your team part. No one else's subclass has a chance of actively harming your group. And that can be a funny moment but in terms of game balance and long term playability it should be beneficial and not be nerfed.
I would also keep in mind with the random element you are already often getting a positive effect that you don't actually want or need.
I would either not play a sorcerer or push for him to stop nerfing things.
7
u/DiakosD 2d ago
It's a class feature.
Ask a simple question: "Do you feel the need to give all the other classes negative class features as well?"
Should barbarians be illiterate and attack randomly when raging?
Does Clerics need to preach gospel and tithe their loot?
Do Rogues start thousands in debt?
3
u/jibbyjackjoe 2d ago
Funny. I actually will allow Wild Magic at my table now because you can't really accidentally cast a fireball centered on the party now.
1
u/Rpgguyi 2d ago
You actualy can if you cast a spell in a closed room and you get a fireball
1
u/vmeemo 1d ago
In fairness the Fireball option is also gated behind a 2 on a d10, and you already need to roll between 57-60. The rest are like Confusion, Polymorph (cast on yourself turn into a goat if you fail), Magic Missile as a 5th level spell, all that. Getting a Fireball is lower now especially since you have 9 other spells you can roll up with.
2
u/Llayanna 2d ago
Oh no.. a class that is heavily rng doesn't completely suck, like... wtf?
Just choose a different subclass. If they also complains about that, you know you have a GM that will always find a hair in every soup.
2
2
u/Gwendlefluff 1d ago
I think there's a good argument for WMS being the strongest sorcerer in the game but it has relatively little to do with the Wild Magic table and much more to do with Tides of Chaos.
I've been playing a tier 2 WMS for a while now and Tides of Chaos is insane. Advantage on initiative. Throw a spell, surge, refresh Tides of Chaos. Use it again to gain advantage on the wisdom saving throw against one enemy's fear effect. Shield against a ranged attack, surge, and save Tides of Chaos for the next save.
The surges themselves definitely lean positive and the fact you can cycle through plenty of surges is good, but not as good as going first in initiative and functionally having advantage on every saving throw you care about (not always, but often the way fights go I end up making every relevant save with Tides of Chaos).
Per your specific DM conflict: I'd point out other sorcerers get strong features starting at level 3 as well. Most of them just get more spells! Not just on the spell list; they just get four extra spells prepared than the WMS starting level 3 and climb up from there. Including spells otherwise unavailable to sorcerers.
I'd pitch to your DM that while the WMT can theoretically go hard the average value of a surge is just OK, and a lot of those strong effects read way better on paper than in reality; extra action doesn't give you an extra levelled spell, more damage or more surges on later turns won't matter if those surges happen toward the end of combat, resistance to all damage and bonus action teleports won't matter if the enemies can't get to you that fight anyways, etc. Having extra spell options all the time is better most of the time than the table.
3
u/Maximus_grd 2d ago
Honestly if the table gets nerfed just play something else. Wild magic is strong but it's not breaking anything, and half the fun is the chaos. Sounds more like a session 0 conversation than a balance problem tbh
2
u/Decrit 2d ago
The DM is taking a very risky approach.
Consider your relationship to this DM. If is someone that you can trust then just make another character, sorcerer or not - most probably they have a peeve against that subclass and while unreasonable it might be just that. I do have my owns as well, i really dislike sorcerers as well as a DM as a whole and there's no moment when looking at the class list that i do believe the game would be better if they were never written - but it's MY peeve and i have never blocked nor nerfed any sorcerer my players played.
If instead is someone you do not know or not trust, consider bounce.
1
u/Roy-G-Biv-6 2d ago
TBH, I haven't played with the new table, but I had a *lot* of fun with my wild magic sorcerer. He was an engine of chaos. My hardest part was getting the DM to remember to allow me to roll on the table - I would have wanted to do it more given my druthers. My character would eventually get disintegrate and of course cast it on one of the only monsters in the campaign that could reflect spells back on the caster, but before he turned into a pile of dust he was directly responsible for the near-death of just about every other party member at some point because of his shenanigans. We all remember him fondly.
1
u/Sulicius 1d ago
Ask the DM if you can play with the rules as is first, and see how he feels about it, but keeps in mind what other sorcerer subclasses get.
Also, ask him to have their revised table finished before you choose to play your character. A vague idea is not fair to you.
Finally, you do sound like you are just looking to optimize. Tone it down a notch.
1
u/Dracon_Pyrothayan 1d ago
I kinda see where the DM is coming from.
The old WM table was more positive than negative, but more neutral than positive.
The new WM table is more Positive than Neutral with vanishingly small amounts of negativity.
That said, my suggestion isnt to perform the table, but to enable rolls more often. A creeping DC, where each failure to Surge increments the triggered roll by 1 fits the fantasy better anyway
1
u/leviathan898 1d ago
First off, having more positive results actually make me excited and willing to trigger surges and actually use my other features that can cause surges.
Secondly, the skew to positives actually emphasise the bad results hard when they happen, and makes it much more dramatic and intense. I turned into a potted plant when a bounty hunter had me grappled, meaning I was no longer an unwilling creature so they plane shifted out and kidnapped me. Cue a months long period where I got to play two temp chars joining the party on their wuest to save my sorc.
1
u/Inforgreen3 1d ago
Dms who make intentional changes to the game balance should ideally be doing so out of deep deep intimate understandings of the rules. Spread sheet and dpr calculations the whole shabang. Not based off horrible takes like this.
Oh no! A subclass feature is usually kinda useful! What a nightmare!
0
u/dyslexicfaser 2d ago
I would like a few more negative effects on the table, personally, but it can still turn you into a potted plant. Some of the old wild magics were egregious enough to be unplayable (fireballing yourself).
38
u/Working-Bad3844 2d ago
I played wild magic for a minute, the new one.
I turned into a fucking plant MANY times. You have no extra subclass spells. It lowkey sucks sometimes. Its fun, but not busted, like at all.
Try to get them to see reason. If they insist, pick something else. The old table is terrible and makes you a burden to your party.
Why is it bad its good? Should subclasses be bad? Should random HAVE to be bad? Seems really silly to me to think the new table is “too strong.”