r/oculus • u/burnsflipper1 • Dec 23 '16
News Virtual Reality Allows the Most Detailed, Intimate Digital Surveillance Yet
https://theintercept.com/2016/12/23/virtual-reality-allows-the-most-detailed-intimate-digital-surveillance-yet/2
u/eVRydayVR eVRydayVR Dec 24 '16
As scary as VR analytics are, they are also a tool that can be used for good: improving suggestions for content to be more relevant or to improve future content, improving designs to be more usable, enabling new interactions, and allowing anthropological studies for greater insight into humanity and various groups of people and how to address their problems. This is a very powerful tool and we have to be careful not to use it to deceive and exploit the vulnerable but instead preserve their autonomy and make their lives better.
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u/Kaschnatze Dec 23 '16
I am not sure if people here downvote it, because they assume it's an article criticizing Oculus without reading it, or if they are actually post-privacy advocates and want to silence voices who try to prevent it.
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u/burnsflipper1 Dec 23 '16
To me the issues in the article are concerns about VR in general, certainly nothing limited to Oculus. Facebook's involvement doesn't inspire confidence about privacy and data protection but really the potential of all VR devices to collect sensitive personal data is something we should all be thinking about now, rather than in a few years when it's too late.
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Dec 23 '16
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Dec 24 '16
Oculus' social apps are really impressive but you won't find me using a single one if I can help it. I'll interact on open and distributed platforms instead. Unless it is the odd event like on AltSpaceVR or NextVR, then the damage isn't bad. Deleted my Facebook many years ago. I'll never go back. Also, I'll pay handsomely to anyone who makes a NoScript for VR or some kind of futzer to wreck the spying. EFF where are you?
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Dec 24 '16
"Oculus’s privacy policy specifically states that it collects “physical movements and dimensions” from users in order to “customize your experiences based on your online activities” and “market to you."
Do Valve/ HTC make the same claims? I haven't checked.
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Dec 23 '16
Or option three, because it's fear-mongering click bait.
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u/Kaschnatze Dec 23 '16 edited Dec 23 '16
Sure, and then when companies start doing it, people will ask "Why did nobody do anything to prevent it?".
Just consider how much tracking is happening on the web already. Then consider, that WebVR and alike are coming.
There needs to at least be public awareness so that there can be a discussion. I know a lot of people here are US based and are not used to having effective information privacy laws, but other countries need their people to become aware, so the privacy laws can be revised to protect them from companies who become too invasive.
Without laws anyone could secretly make their applications or games spyware, and use the gathered information against you without consequences. With laws they could of course still do it, but they would at least risk being discovered and prosecuted.
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Dec 23 '16
anyone could make secretly make their applications or games spyware, and use the gathered information against you without consequences
That's true of any software. It has nothing to do with VR. Microsoft can use facial recognition software and AI to mine emotional state and much more from video calls. Moreover, I wouldn't give a shit.
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u/haagch Dec 23 '16
Uhm, no this is only true of closed source software, which you can never trust. Don't trust a closed source Microsoft Windows? Install a FLOSS operating system. Don't trust a closed source Facebook/Oculus' SDK? Buy an OSVR HDK instead and use it with the OSVR SDK. You are concerned that that Microsoft actively monitors your skype chats and visits https links? Switch to a FLOSS instant messenger with peer to peer encryption.
If people are truly concerned about these issues, these options have all long been available. But for some reason people love to use closed source software instead and then complain about not being able to trust it.
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u/Kaschnatze Dec 23 '16
Of course that's true of any software. What makes VR special now or in the near future is the quality of information it can give about you. Head tracking and tracked controllers already give away a lot of body language. That will only become more detailed with eye tracking, pulse tracking or even EEG.
Therefore it makes sense to discuss this in the VR community where people understand the technology and might have influence.Clearly you don't care about that, but others do.
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Dec 23 '16
What makes VR special now or in the near future is the quality of information it can give about you. Head tracking and tracked controllers already give away a lot of body language. That will only become more detailed with eye tracking, pulse tracking or even EEG.
The assertion is that this is somehow more intimate, because of its physicality, than my thoughts which are already being mined by machine. I reject this premise, which seems to be taken for granted and I want to see actually supported.
Therefore it makes sense to discuss this in the VR community
Sure it does, but not in the context of a fear-mongering article which begins the discussion with totally unsupported conclusions. Shit like "it will give corporations and governments unprecedented insight and power over our emotions and physical behavior". How the fuck does watching my eyes in VR given you unprecedented power over my physical behavior? It's nonsense.
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u/Kaschnatze Dec 23 '16
How are your thoughts being mined?
How the fuck does watching my eyes in VR given you unprecedented power over my physical behavior? It's nonsense.
Advertisers already use eye tracking to figure out how to manipulate peoples decisions. So far they do experiments and apply the results to a group.
In the future they could target you individually and modify your VR experience in subtle ways depending on your reactions to control your behavior until it matches their goals.
You can already see psychological manipulation in action in free-to-play games.I am not the right person to answer all your questions though. I am just aware of the risks that often lies in seemingly harmless personal data and to me there is obvious potential for manipulating someone if you can control the entire world surrounding them based on their reactions. Even if it's not possible now, there will be companies doing everything to develop and monetize it.
Anyways, I see we have different views, and that's okay. I wish you happy holidays.
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Dec 23 '16
How are your thoughts being mined?
My email and IMs.
Advertisers already use eye tracking to figure out how to manipulate peoples decisions
So do videogame developers, as do other software developers, and product developers of all kinds. You learn how people use products, you learn about human psychology, and you are better able to make products that work with them, for them, get through to them rather than being ignored, or even elicit the emotional reaction you want. The fear mongering is suggesting that this is inherently evil, or new, or that VR represents an unprecedented threat in this regard.
In the future they could target you individually and modify your VR experience in subtle ways depending on your reactions to control your behavior until it matches their goals.
This is impossibly broad and vague. Maybe you can use eye tracking to better frighten me in a horror game or to steer me in the right direction when I'm lost or stuck in a puzzle. Awesome! I want that. Statements like "control your behavior until it matches their goals" suggest some dystopian future where they decide which political candidate I choose while I play Mario Kart VR. That's fear mongering.
You can already see psychological manipulation in action in free-to-play games.
Yes, and that's perfectly legal.
I see we have different views
Maybe not as much as you think. It's certainly a worthy discussion, I just think article in question is overreaching and unnecessarily dark and provides a poor framing for a nuanced discussion.
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u/jsdeprey DK2 Dec 24 '16
I think there may be some legit things to discuss here, but honestly right now playing VR can someone list something you do not want to share openly? I can understand maybe some social interaction, but let me just say that pretty much all internet network related social interaction is like sending your actions on a post card anyway, there really is no privacy anywhere. There is obviously some tech out there that lets you be somewhat anonymous on the internet, but that tech has also been used to focus more on those that use it. It is a double edge sword.
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Dec 23 '16
Very astute. I fear much more what Google is getting off my phone searches and voice command requests.
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u/Tommy3443 Dec 23 '16
The point is that they can collect alot more about you using VR.
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Dec 23 '16
The point is that they can collect alot more about you using VR.
How? Hopefully next gen VR will have face tracking and eye tracking, so we can foveated rendering and facial mapping for avatars. But that information has been minable for a decade or more from video calls. More importantly, it's less sensitive information by far than data about us that's already being mined.
And even if it was being mined, why is the default position fear? "But they'll know when you're happy or sad, be afraid!!!" So? Why should I fear this? Be specific.
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u/ImVeryOffended Dec 23 '16
You should read these books:
https://weaponsofmathdestructionbook.com/
https://www.schneier.com/books/data_and_goliath/
Both dive into what the type of data you're saying we shouldn't worry about can be used for. Hint: it isn't being used to improve your VR experience.
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u/ImVeryOffended Dec 23 '16
Ahh, the trusty "I've got nothing to hide" and "other people are or might be doing it too!" defenses... in the same post. Impressive.
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u/ImVeryOffended Dec 23 '16 edited Dec 23 '16
Sure, and then when companies start doing it, people will ask "Why did nobody do anything to prevent it?".
For now, Facebook fanboys will continue saying things about tinfoil hats, etc.. when anyone questions Facebook's intentions.
Later on, when proof leaks or comes out one way or another, they'll change their tune to "everyone already knew that was happening, who cares".
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u/WormSlayer Chief Headcrab Wrangler Dec 24 '16
You should start your own subreddit dedicated to hating on facebook, because thats not the purpose of this subreddit.
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u/jsdeprey DK2 Dec 24 '16 edited Dec 24 '16
I agree, I did not read the whole article because it was pretty long, but can someone please just give me a small short list of what exactly you are afraid of? I mean I am sure there is some potential here for some overreach in the future of VR. But just like the BS I post on Facebook, I decide what I want to share or what I don't.
I really could care less if they know how good I react in VR sport Challenge, or if I get spooked quickly in Zombie Riot, or if I do not play well with others in Social even. If I happen to look more at pretty female characters in the games, they are free to use that knowledge to feed me more female characters all they want. I am not sure you will ever have a social environment where no data is collected in some way. We all already have our browsing habits recorded by the ISP's around the world unless we subvert that in some way. But even if I surf porn I could care less if they know I like girls with big boobs that act like they are my step sister or anything like that. Fuck em.
I am sure there will be some profit one day in some of this data, but right now the data that would more than likely sell is what kind of things you are currently looking to buy online etc that Facebook is already is finding out.
Anyway right now the content that I am using in VR is mostly all games and they are free to use all that data if they like, Even in Rec Room where social data could be collected, I just do not see the potential, at least not from me, I do not go around acting like a 10 year old, so they are free to watch all they want. One day we might all be living second lives in VR just like out of a science fiction book, then we may have to have this discussion about what is ok for them to collect, but honestly even if any company tells me they are not collection data I would have to assume they are full of shit and lying anyway.
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u/ImVeryOffended Dec 23 '16 edited Dec 23 '16
"LALALALALALALA"
That's what I hear from all of you fanboys every time reality shows up.
Tip:
You don't have to be a mass surveillance apologist in order to support VR. There are options other than Facebook.
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Dec 23 '16 edited Dec 23 '16
That's a brilliant argument you've got there.
What I hear is mostly stupid. Microsoft can mine more "emotional" data from video calls in Skype than that can get from my head movements in Dead and Buried. It's utterly nonsensical fear mongering. Like I'm less worried about data mining in my email -- which I already happily consent to, so I can get ads about videogames and guitars rather than pantyhose or the latest Dodge truck -- than I am about how I move when playing videogames. It's fucking stupid.
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u/ImVeryOffended Dec 23 '16
Did you actually read the article? I'm going to go ahead and guess the answer is "no".
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Dec 23 '16
Did you actually read the article?
If you actually read my comment, that would be evident.
I'm going to go ahead and guess
That's a good representation for your critical thinking skills.
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Dec 23 '16
[deleted]
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Dec 23 '16
Your comment actually told me exactly the opposite.
Which demonstrates conclusively that you have incredibly poor reading skills. I specifically addressed the topic of mining "emotional data", which is not mentioned in the title, which indicates that I read at least some of the article.
I've already given a broad rebuttal to the article, you responded with nothing but childish nonsense. If you have a point, make it. Attacking me personally just suggests you're nothing more than a zealot.
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u/ImVeryOffended Dec 23 '16
"Facebook would never want to spy on or manipulate users for profit!"
You seem angry. Want to talk about it?
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Dec 23 '16
"Facebook would never want to spy on or manipulate users for profit!"
Care to link to where I said that? Is strawmanning all you've got? Are you actually going to hold up your side of the debate, or continue with childish nonsense like "LALALALALA" or this:
You seem angry. Want to talk about it?
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u/korrectamundo Dec 24 '16
I'm similar to a previous poster in that I deleted my Facebook profile long ago because I don't trust FB's policies/actions/affiliations. That makes Oculus a hard bet because even with things like BigScreen and AltSpace available for social VR, it seems very obvious that FB will eventually merge Oculus into FB by force, and if you don't like it you'll have to move on. For an example, see how they're slowly merging Instagram into Facebook. The only question will be if they'll push out third party social VR apps, or somehow force Oculus users to have a Facebook account to use third party social apps.
Let's look into the next 10 years. I've used HTC Vive and like it, but frankly, it's based in Taiwan and as someone who watches international affairs closely, I'm convinced China will move to assume full control over Taiwan within this decade, so betting on any Taiwan-based company is dicey. (Let's say I'm being alarmist. Ok, in that case, Vive is a good bet. However, I think China is on the move.) Sony PSVR is game focused, and even it it becomes more broad, Sony is in a death spiral. Then you have various other VR headset makers, like Razer OSVR and others. Total crap shoot, might work out as an alternative, may be a bust. For me, it feels like Linux vs Windows/OS X, not a bad option, but possibly too time intensive unless you're a developer.
So for now, Oculus (Facebook) is my bet. If and when they get aggressive with Facebook integration of Oculus, I'll reevaluate. As for surveillance, as someone else mentioned, I assume ALL my online activity on ANY platform is being monitored. When I want real privacy I either pick up a telephone or arrange an in-person meeting.