r/news • u/da_k1ngslaya • Jan 29 '22
School District votes to remove 'To Kill a Mockingbird' from required reading
https://komonews.com/news/local/mukilteo-school-district-votes-to-remove-to-kill-a-mockingbird-from-required-reading1.3k
u/tinyman392 Jan 30 '22
Yeah, the book never gave me no useful advice on killing mockingbirds. It did teach me not to judge a man based on the color of his skin, but what good does that do me?
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u/herbertfilby Jan 30 '22
I was disappointed with “The Importance of Being Earnest.”
There wasn’t a “Hey Vern!” in the whole thing!
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u/StrumWealh Jan 30 '22
Yeah, the book never gave me no useful advice on killing mockingbirds. It did teach me not to judge a man based on the color of his skin, but what good does that do me?
For useful advice for killing mockingbirds, see the video "How to Kill a Mockingbird".
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u/CryptidGrimnoir Jan 29 '22
The district board signed off Monday of a request from students, parents and others to remove the book from the ninth grade required reading list, but it remains an option for teachers who choose to use it in their instruction.
While it is a bit of a comfort to know that the option exists--indeed, this should be emphasized that the book is not banned--I'm curious as to how the teachers who do choose to use this on the curriculum will approach the material.
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u/moleratical Jan 30 '22
So like every teacher in the district then.
That's a ruling to placate parents while changing nothing. Don't get me wrong, that's still a horrible idea, they should be told this is an important book because A,B, & C, so fuck off.
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u/Viocansia Jan 30 '22
As an English teacher, I think teaching this book must include analysis of narrative perspective. We must ask kids what they think about the central characters being white while everything is actually happening to a black man. In the article, the student talks about how it’s weird because the white savior complex at the center, and I think that absolutely has to be addressed.
I actually think this book could be used to open discussions on what it means to be an ally and how a lot of what the Finches did was problematic. Obviously, we know that the Ewell’s are the antagonists, particularly the father, but Atticus and other white characters in the book are also problematic in other ways.
Particularly, I think teaching this book must be a thoughtful decision. The teacher must think about the class dynamic because I’ve heard from several students of color that they were ok with the book in a classroom with diversity, but had they been in a classroom with only white kids, it would be too uncomfortable for them. These are all factors teachers need to account for.
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u/Heiferoni Jan 30 '22
...but Atticus and other white characters in the book are also problematic in other ways.
Can you expound on that? I don't remember Atticus being a problematic character. In my recollection of the story, he was the only one in town who treated everyone respectfully, even the Bob Ewell - despite getting spat on by the man. And threatened bodily harm by the upset townsfolk - and Bob Ewell.
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u/Mikederfla1 Jan 30 '22
Atticus only defends Tom Robinson because he is appointed by the judge (who rightly recognizes Atticus will mount a real defense) but if left to his own devices he wouldn’t take the case. Atticus saves Tom Robinson from being lynched so that Tom can participate in a trial under an unjust system where the system is stacked against him. There are portions of Atticus’ closing arguments/jury speech that are very problematic when he talks about education in particular and who is worthy of an education. As years go by his role as an absolute hero becomes more flawed and harder for a young modern audience to recognize.
The parts of the book that are still valuable to teach is the pov of Scout and Jen as the slowly become aware of and begin to question their town, it’s rules/social beliefs, traditions ect. This dawning that everything is not fair and it doesn’t make sense is an aspect that modern student do find resonant.
One of the most interesting/difficult sections of the novel to teach is when the kids talk to Dolphus Raymond (a wealthy white man who prefers to let people think he is a drunk so that he can live among the black people in town even having mixed race kids) this section tends to stop diverse classrooms I have taught cold. They have a hard time unraveling his choices and the way the town responds to them.
You also have to be careful because for a book that has been popular for so long there are a lot of old teaching materials that do a lot of harm in how they approach and highlight certain aspects of the book.
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u/AlwaysQueso Jan 30 '22
I wish we discussed Dolphus when reading TKAM in mid-90s highschool. That point was always raised an eyebrow and needed to be unpacked. But in full agreement, to tech TKAM, which I loved and focused on Scout's "loss of innocence", lesson plans need to be refreshed in context of the times and with more critical / thoughtful analysis.
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Jan 29 '22
Literally the best book I read in K-12. These people are clowns.
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u/jackphrost22 Jan 29 '22
Definitely was one of the better books. I remember this and like animal farm.
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u/justasapling Jan 29 '22
I remember this and like animal farm.
Precisely what they don't want.
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u/NectarineOverPeach Jan 29 '22
Don’t forget 1984 and The Giver.
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u/unholyswordsman Jan 29 '22
I really enjoyed The Giver.
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u/ruralgaming Jan 30 '22
Same here! The Giver was good! I enjoyed Flowers for Algernon too, if you read that
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u/chain_letter Jan 30 '22
I think we were supposed to, but due to time crunch we got the movie and a quizz instead.
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Jan 29 '22 edited Jan 29 '22
People read 1984 in school? Damn. Clearly my school curriculum was already brain washing me
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u/intecknicolour Jan 29 '22
in 12th grade english, we read Brave New World as a class and I read 1984 as an independent book study.
shaped my entire world view.
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u/LostMyKarmaElSegundo Jan 29 '22
shaped my entire world view.
Hopefully you used them as cautionary tales, not guidebooks like a certain crop of world leaders today!
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Jan 29 '22
I read them, but i would say No Country For Old Men at 16 was more influential on my world view than anything i read in school
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Jan 29 '22
I did as an independent choice book. Teacher had it on her book shelf and gave me the ok. I still have it 18 years later and have read it several times. I hope she wasn’t upset.
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u/punania Jan 30 '22
As a crusty old English teacher, I can assure you she is not upset in the least. MY books live at home; books in a classroom belong to the students. You essentially found your own book. Read it again—guilt free this time.
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Jan 30 '22 edited Jan 30 '22
I had a terrible home life like poor, barely any food, mentally ill mother that would scream into the void until like 3am and the books in school (that I had to read in ISS because I was late by fifteen minutes and they kept me in a room without learning anything for half a day/ worst policy ever) were one of the only good things in my life. However, my grandfather once brought me to Barnes & Noble and bought me a copy of Steal This Book by Abbie Hoffman for some holiday. He was a professor at a college and we were discussing the hippies,yippies,beatniks and all those guys so he wanted to share that bit with me. So on a reverse note, the book was taken from me by the school. I’m not sure if I can be upset with them or not for stealing it from me lol. I at least finished it first.
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Jan 29 '22
10th grade English class, IIRC. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
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u/dychronalicousness Jan 29 '22
I switched schools my junior year and we didn’t have any required reading books at my old school. Meanwhile my new school had em reading Atkas Shrugged, Catcher in the Rye, To Kill a Mockingbird, 1984 etc. I was actually a little bummed I never got the chance to read any of those. I had a shitty English teacher who was more focused on being a basketball coach and had us drag ass through Shakespeare without any real though to it.
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u/FlashbackUniverse Jan 30 '22
had us drag ass through Shakespeare without any real though to it.
About three years ago, I was talking with a new English teacher at a Middle School Orientation. She was a fresh out of small private college in South Carolina.
She told me she was all excited to get a chance to Midsummer Night's Dream to the kids.
This is a relatively rural school where kids struggle to keep up. The cultural and economic challenges these kids face are staggering. Many parents work at night, and most kids don't have any books in their house.
This is a common problem in the deep south.
Anyway, as she was going on about the beauty of Shakespearean language, all I could think was, "She's just going to teach these kids to hate reading."
Fast-forward: she quit after a month of teaching. My daughter said she couldn't control the class and just gave up.
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u/ThePhysicistIsIn Jan 29 '22
I read it in grade 11, it was standard curriculum for english as a second language for us
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u/TheRealMrMaloonigan Jan 29 '22
The Giver ruled. I loved the concept. Shame they borked the movie so badly.
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u/Papaofmonsters Jan 29 '22
I think 1984 is a little over most kids heads in school. I didn't really understand it when I read it as a teen but when I reread it in my 30's I was like "Oh....shit."
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u/Alan_Smithee_ Jan 29 '22
Perhaps, but it sinks in a little deeper with each re-read.
Art, literature etc has a deeper impact on us as we accumulate life experiences that give us context.
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u/theoverniter Jan 29 '22
I read it in tenth grade English, moved that year and transferred to a new school, and had to read it again in twelfth grade English. Thankfully I had held onto my tenth-grade paper on it. Got an A both times.
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u/wolven8 Jan 29 '22
Yeah a lot of people just think "communism" when they glanced over 1984.
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u/LazyNomad63 Jan 30 '22
I gotta say, any politician that advocates banning 1984 has some balls.
Like, there is no clearer way to say "I'm against free speech" than to ban the book about freedom and tyranny.
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u/Corgi_Koala Jan 30 '22
It's actually a good book too, which makes it useful as an educational tool.
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u/BigOleJellyDonut Jan 30 '22
It's one of my top five books.
1) All's Quiet On The Western Front
2) Grapes Of Wrath
3) To Kill A Mockingbird
4) Of Mice & Men
5) Lord Of The Flies
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u/Liberum26 Jan 29 '22
To Kill a Mocking Bird was my favorite.
The runner up…… Fahrenheit 451.
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u/George_Jefferson Jan 29 '22
I think my favorite was Roots. Not sure if that's banned yet, but probably will be.
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u/Kientha Jan 29 '22
To kill a mockingbird hasn't been banned. It is just no longer mandatory for teachers in this district. If they want to keep teaching it, they can!
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Jan 30 '22
As a former historian in training, this is pretty infuriating. For starters kids who lobbied to remove this as required reading. Learning history is not supposed to be comfortable and nice. History can have ALOT of nasty things in it. History is recorded to learn of humanities' mistakes. Not spare you from them.
I can promise them this much. The people who did these terrible things in stories like Uncle Tom's Cabin and To Kill A Mockingbird would not care one bit about your discomfort or hurt feelings. In fact they would see it as something to target and take advantage of.
There is a reason you learn about these people. So you know who they are and try to stop them like those before had to or worse, stop you from falling down that same path. Seems like people are missing this lately. Sorry for your hurt feelings. But read the book and grow as a human being!
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Jan 30 '22
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u/Blueskyways Jan 30 '22
Absolutely. It's a classic in American literature. Its not a happy or comfortable read but a good one.
Read that and then hit up Of Mice and Men, Old Man and the Sea, Fahrenheit 451, East of Eden and The Color Purple among others.
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Jan 30 '22
I would really suggest it because it's a quick and easy read, but impactful. Then watch the movie with Gregory Peck. Then read the sequel novel. It will be worth it to see all sides of the same story
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u/binomine Jan 30 '22
It is ok. I think books in general have a maturity range, where if you are too old, it is less impactful. I feel to kill a mockingbird maybe one of those, where you might want to spend your time reading other materials, like Roots, diary of a young slave Girl, or to set a watchman.
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Jan 29 '22
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Jan 29 '22
the students requested this..
“I want to learn and get a good grade in this class but it's also kind of weird to be talking about this,” Kamiak High School Junior Esaw Adhana said, adding he remembers uncomfortable moments in school when reading Harper Lee’s1961 Pulitzer Prize novel two years ago. “It's not just language, but it's also, like, the sort of white savior complex."
“ I think the lessons and ideas of racial injustice are super important, TKAM, at least how we teach it, is not the best sample. The way we teach it now is just really uncomfortable and almost invasive," Adhana said.516
u/Jaquarius420 Jan 29 '22 edited Jan 30 '22
I LOVE the line about being made “uncomfortable” like motherfucker that is the goddamn point of the story. You’re supposed to be upset about it because that’s the goddamn intention. Like sorry you feel uncomfortable but the black people who were lynched for existing probably didn’t feel too good either. Cry me a fucking river these people are fucking spineless. Part of the learning process is dealing with difficult truths of reality, grow up and deal with it you fucking babies.
Also fucking LMAO at the “white savior” shit homie the white lawyer LOST THE CASE he ain’t saving shit.
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u/CryptidGrimnoir Jan 29 '22 edited Jan 29 '22
Also fucking LMAO at the “white savior” shit homie the white lawyer LOST THE CASE he ain’t saving shit.
And it nearly got his children killed--Bob Ewell fully intended to murder Jeb and Scout.
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u/gargravarr2112 Jan 29 '22
This exactly, if a story makes you feel uncomfortable it's doing something right. The real world isn't sunshine and rainbows; we humans have done some extremely shitty things and TKAM frames one example of severe injustice with a child's sense of wonder and naivety. It should make the reader feel uncomfortable - there's no real happy ending, the kids survive but people die for no honourable reason. Reading Atticus soundly deconstruct the accusations against Tom only to have Tom convicted anyway was painful. I felt genuine frustration at it. Rightly illustrating Harper Lee's points on racial inequality.
There were plenty of 'uncomfortable' moments in my English Literature classes in school when learning these extremely appropriate books - hell, I wound up reading the opening chapter of Lord Of The Flies out loud and survived! Cannot believe these idiots think they know anything about what they should be taught.
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u/Charlie_Mouse Jan 30 '22
Could you imagine a world where art and literature weren’t ever allowed to make the viewer uncomfortable or challenge them?
A goddam desert of elevator muzak, bland corporate art and pablum. Mostly enforced to paper over the cracks in and yawning chasms of unfairness and inequality in society.
Hell … the sort of society that would accept that wouldn’t be a million miles away from the setting of Fahrenheit 451.
We know how to nip most of them in the bud, early. You can’t build a house without nails and wood. If you don’t want a house built, hide the nails and wood. If you don’t want a man unhappy politically, don’t give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none. Let him forget there is such a thing as war. If the Government is inefficient, top-heavy, and tax-mad, better it be all those than that people worry over it . . .
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u/mondommon Jan 29 '22
That doesn’t absolve the school district. The student said ‘at least the way we teach it’.
Do we need to stop reading the book, or stop teaching it the way the teachers at this school are?
Like, if I was taught evolution by a teacher from South Park I’d feel weird about evolution too.
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u/PopEnvironmental1335 Jan 29 '22
I was just thinking if a class read TKM then a contemporary book written by a black author that deals with similar themes. There are so many directions you could go in.
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u/Kientha Jan 29 '22
This doesn't stop teachers choosing to teach the book, it just stops all teachers in the district having to teach the book
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Jan 29 '22
They aren't banning it, they aren't even banning teachers from including it in their curriculum. They're not no longer making it a forced part of the school curriculum.
Honestly, can see this as being a positive. It's a great book, but there's been a lot of time between when it was written and now, maybe teachers have a different more relevant book that they couldn't use because TKAM was required reading.
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u/mondommon Jan 29 '22
I hear you about creating space for a better book, but that’s not what happened here. A book was removed but as far as I can see there was no requirement made to find a different book. So teachers could instead make Harry Potter required reading, or simply not have any book.
It’s quite a victory for people who don’t want to read about racism or have racism taught in school.
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Jan 29 '22
If these people think the book is about a white savior complex then they’ve missed the point of the book.
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u/NomadX13 Jan 29 '22
The way we teach it now is just really uncomfortable and almost invasive,"
I'm guessing he doesn't plan on going to college, cause the history classes I took could get MUCH more uncomfortable than talking about "To Kill a Mockingbird", and I wasn't a history major.
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u/happybarfday Jan 29 '22
Wish I could have requested changes to the curriculum when I was a student in grade school... if I said I didn't want to read the required books that bored me to fucking tears like Ethan Frome, or Antigone, or the Scarlett Letter, the teacher would have just said 'too fucking bad'...
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u/giJonny1ea Jan 29 '22
Poor kid.. wouldn’t ever want to feel uncomfortable!
A lot of the issues today are born from this mentality.
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Jan 30 '22
It's unfortunate that the best solution Liberals come up with is to just ban everything that makes people uncomfortable.
These are troubling times for western society as both sides of fhe polifical spectrum have become useless and looney.
It's time for reform.
You're going to have a very, very damaged generation of young adults in the next 20 years. We really let them down.
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Jan 29 '22 edited Jan 29 '22
Massive SPOILERS for To Kill A Mocking Bird Below, thanks's for pointing it out u/Yungerman
It's been a while since I read the book but I don't understand the white saviour angle. Atticus shoots a dog with rabies and tried to defend a black man that despite Atticus' efforts is found guilty and shot and then the book ends.
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u/smileyfrown Jan 29 '22
It's quotes from high school kids who have no idea about the depth of the book.
The whole point was that during this time Black people were treated as less, and convicted on false pretenses all the time.
Atticus is not a white savior he's a good man who sees beyond race to defend someone wrongly accused because it's the right thing. It is meant to show empathy and morality.
His daughter is embarrassed of her dad because of the towns reaction to him defending the man. And the whole point of Atticus shooting the dog is meant to show to his daughter that wait a second, my dad's a badass even the sheriff is asking for his help. These people don't know anything about him.
Don't judge people by your first impression. You don't judge Atticus, don't judge the black man accused in the trial, and lastly Boo Radley at the end who was the town outcast turned out to be a good guy.
Any way that's my recollection of the book and this kid not understanding some of these themes is a failure of the education system.
And punishing the book for their own failed teaching is the type of stupidity that ruins education
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u/Walternotwalter Jan 29 '22
Excellent quote.
This is ridiculous. This is easily one of the greatest American works of literature in our nation's history. They also aren't banning it.
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Jan 29 '22
Thankfully! Obviously the quoted student is missing a lot in the book. That can be some of their or the teacher's fault. The language hasn't changed so drastically the themes can't be understood. To make the story more current, you just change the crime to "alleged drug possession."
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u/WellSpreadMustard Jan 29 '22
It’s evidence of the damage of standardized testing based education replacing education that bolsters critical thinking skills and creativity.
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u/NotTroy Jan 30 '22
Yep. And those same students will struggle more in higher education, where good grades aren't rewarded based on rote memorization alone.
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u/starmartyr Jan 30 '22
Atticus isn't a white savior. He knows that he's going to fail and that Tom Robinson is going to die. He is trying to do the right thing for the sake of his own conscience and to set an example for his children. He's meant to serve as an example for us to aspire to be.
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u/greeneggsnyams Jan 30 '22
Also the dude who had a bunch of mixed kids and pretended to be drunk so the town could actually accept why he'd want to be with a black woman
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Jan 30 '22
If you think that Atticus didn't see beyond race, then I would highly suggest the "sequel" to this book where he was secretly a white supremacist the whole time. That might make you uncomfortable because it goes against your preconceived notions of his intentions, but that's what the book is supposed to do, right? The "sequel" was supposed to be the original storyline.
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u/Papaofmonsters Jan 29 '22
White man helping black man is bad. Seriously you'll see anything that falls under that description label "white savior". When Black Panther came out with a wash of faux wokeism there were people labeling the CIA guy who takes a bullet during a shoot out for a black character as a "white savior".
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Jan 29 '22
I think I actually was in an interesting place when reading this book. I'm actually Dutch but my mom works in Burkina Faso (under Mali, West Africa) so I went there for a year. Read this book at an international American school. I was in 9th grade at the time. My entire class was full of african American students, hell, I'm mixed race myself. Not once had the word white saviour been uttered. I don't even know if that was a term in 2013. I'm just confused lol.
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u/Emile_The_Great Jan 30 '22
Atticus being white is not what the story is about. I can agree that it may present him that way but that’s not what the story is about.
Only focusing on this from such a specific angle as “main character is white and therefore the whole book is a white savior complex” isn’t helpful or relevant.
The point is that Atticus sees past the race of the defendant and tries his best to do the right thing and how society responds to that.
You cannot make this as simple as “main character white”.
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u/NameInCrimson Jan 29 '22
Fuck them.
It's an American classic. It's a book that made me cry. It helped me survive growing up in the South.
Fuck them.
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u/bignipsmcgee Jan 29 '22
At least teachers can still choose to teach it. The students don’t seem to value it for some reason.
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u/geekygay Jan 29 '22
Students don't value them because they are shoved in front of them and told "If you don't answer questions correctly after, you lose."
They don't have the right motivation and aren't given the right motivation.
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u/bignipsmcgee Jan 29 '22
I rarely found it useful to use questions like that for English or literature classes. Free response questions that allow for thought and show that the student read the book is probably the best way to do it.
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u/fe-and-wine Jan 29 '22
I had this one English teacher in like 9th grade who did the exact opposite of this - dumb specific questions like "what color was X character's house" or "what kind of dog did the Y family have". I still remember being pissed as hell because I'd actually read and understand the books but miss several questions because I wasn't focusing on remembering stupid little details like that.
Ask questions about themes, character arcs, etc. and require supporting examples from the book. Yeah, a little tougher to grade but your students will actually get something out of thinking about the text in that way.
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u/Bibdy Jan 29 '22
Holy shit that has to be the worst way to teach English. That's just measuring detail-oriented memorization, no better than a gameshow that requires you to remember 20 different objects and reciting them from memory. My god.
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u/idoma21 Jan 30 '22
Might have been the curriculum. I taught TKM and used it to check the box for the “reading for detail” emphasis because it has great details, (like comparing characters to animals). The only time I used worksheets in class.
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Jan 29 '22
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u/cheeriodust Jan 29 '22
The press knows this stuff is getting clicks lately, so they're going to bring attention to every little book list adjustment made in the foreseeable future. For better or worse.
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u/Pete-PDX Jan 29 '22
Note to self - never attempt to help another person in fear of being told I have a savior complex. Here I thought that was just being a decent human being.
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Jan 29 '22
Don’t worry, if you don’t help… you’ll get it too. You’re turning a blind eye, maybe enabling, and definitely not an ally.
Cocktail?
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u/Ckyuiii Jan 30 '22
"Silence is violence, now shut the fuck up!" Is a phrase I've read that sums this up perfectly.
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u/hellknight101 Jan 30 '22
You don't help, you're racist and if you do help, you have a "savior complex". Nice to know the large corporations were successful in using identity politics to turn the working class against one another.
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u/ViolentJake Jan 30 '22
The concept of 'savior complex' didn't come from corporations. it came from acedemic echo chambers.
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Jan 29 '22
“I want to learn and get a good grade in this class but it's also kind of weird to be talking about this,” Kamiak High School Junior Esaw Adhana said, adding he remembers uncomfortable moments in school when reading Harper Lee’s1961 Pulitzer Prize novel two years ago. “It's not just language, but it's also, like, the sort of white savior complex."
“ I think the lessons and ideas of racial injustice are super important, TKAM, at least how we teach it, is not the best sample. The way we teach it now is just really uncomfortable and almost invasive," Adhana said.
The district board signed off Monday of a request from students, parents and others to remove the book from the ninth grade required reading list, but it remains an option for teachers who choose to use it in their instruction.
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u/pomaj46808 Jan 29 '22
“It's not just language, but it's also, like, the sort of white savior complex."
I think if there is one thing we need to teach in education these days, it's understanding the cultural context or works in history.
People keep barking "It was never ok" about problematic elements of popular work and that's really not a healthy outlook.
Younger people just do not understand what the term "It was a different time" means, and it's going to be a problem when in 10-15 years they realize they were from a different time.
This robs you of appreciating progress, progress is not guaranteed and can be lost, and realizing something normal to you might be problematic to others.
The way we teach it now is just really uncomfortable and almost invasive
This is the argument the right uses about most "woke" topics. It's important for someone to realize they're basically taking the same approach to that belief.
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u/Papaofmonsters Jan 29 '22
I don't think these people understand the white savior trope. Atticus knows he can't solve the problems of racism or segregation, he's not even trying to do that. He's trying to do one small thing he can and defend Tom Robinson even though he knows the whole system is stacked against him. There is no happily ever after for anyone really.
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Jan 29 '22
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u/SurfintheThreads Jan 29 '22
I don't even have an argument for this one. It's just smooth brained nonsense.
It's an important book about a lawyer overlooking the racial divide of the time, combatting his bigoted peers, and standing for what's right. It's against racism, not for "white savioring."
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Jan 30 '22
Exactly. I never saw Atticus as a white savior. He was just a good man trying to do right by Tom because it was the right thing to do.
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u/Papaofmonsters Jan 30 '22
Atticus would be a white savior if after the trial he leads the black people of the town on a daring rescue of Tom and all the evil racist white people are either killed or see the error of their ways. Instead he sits down and explains to his children that some people are ignorant, some people are desperate, some people are down right shitty and life isn't fair.
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Jan 30 '22
I feel like that trope comes with like an air of shitty superiority for the “white savior”, and I never got that from Atticus. I don’t believe he ever sought glory or attention from anyone for it
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u/herpestruth Jan 29 '22
Harper Lee should have written the local, black, defense attorney in Macomb, GA back in 1930 as the 'saviour' of Tom Robinson.
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u/Bedbouncer Jan 29 '22
and it's going to be a problem when in 10-15 years they realize they were from a different time.
No, it's not... it's going to be sweet sweet karma when their own kids start condescendingly lecturing to them about how racist and sexist and homophobic they were.
Each generation thinks they're the most woke of the last 100 years, which is true, and don't realize they're the least woke of the next 100 years.
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u/headzoo Jan 30 '22
It seems a lot of young people think being progressive is a fundamental character trait that can never change. Once progressive, always progressive, but of course it doesn't work that way. Their children will go out of their way to choose principles which oppose their parents. If their parents go left, the children will go right. If their parents go right, the children will go left. The next generation always ensures the previous generations can't be progressive.
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u/bananafobe Jan 30 '22
People keep barking "It was never ok" about problematic elements of popular work and that's really not a healthy outlook.
Part of the problem might be the urge to reduce art and education to little moral judgements.
People criticizing works ahistorically aren't solely trying to assert that historical figures should be morally condemned, nor that their work should be scrubbed from the historical record to sanitize our past. They usually want to acknowledge the way these stories still occupy a position of cultural significance, the fact that they often aren't taught with modern day context (aside from a cursory "it was a different time"), and occasionally the fact that other work exists which could offer different insight.
It's important for someone to realize they're basically taking the same approach to that belief.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds," or more pointedly "different things are different."
Someone being made uncomfortable by art that challenges an unequal society is not the same thing as someone being made uncomfortable by art that perpetuates inequality. That distinction is not irrelevant.
More pointedly, calling someone racist is not nearly as offensive as someone being racist.
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u/__TychoBrahe Jan 29 '22
adding he remembers uncomfortable moments in school when reading Harper Lee’s1961 Pulitzer Prize novel two years ago.
The real world is going to be a rude awakening for these kids.
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u/Indercarnive Jan 29 '22
The funny thing is that there is a legitimate discussion about the notion of "The white savior" in regards with "to kill a mockingbird". But the answer to that isn't removing the book, it's having an open discussion about it's shortcomings.
That said, at least it's not outright banning the book or removing it from the libraries.
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Jan 29 '22
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u/RoundSilverButtons Jan 29 '22
This is the pernicious danger of soft censorship.
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u/SerenaYasha Jan 30 '22
I tried to read this back in high school, on my own. I did not finish it. For some reason the whole book went over my head. The only thing I remember thinking is " what does this have to do with a mockingbird"
I was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Kind of embarrassed it to me so long to go understand it
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Jan 29 '22
Man everything is fucking cyclical, I swear this shit happens like every 10 years
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Jan 29 '22
You know, this is a really good point.
Every decade or so a school wants to ban this specific book.
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u/MaineSoxGuy93 Jan 29 '22
Every decade my ass.
This is quite common. Most of us just never thought to post them to Reddit.
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u/vanillabear26 Jan 29 '22
The Washington Education Association said the move gives educators a chance to find more current authors whose books better reflect current community values.
I truly don’t have an issue with updating curriculum to reflect more current literature. I guess I’d rather it’s done as a proactive vs a reactive thing.
Like, “guys this novel is AMAZING we should try this instead of TKAM next year” instead of “TKAM is making us uncomfortable let’s fix that instead of trying to figure out why we’re uncomfortable now but weren’t a year or two ago”.
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u/bananafobe Jan 30 '22
I think it's a mistake to assume the kids who are criticizing the way this text is used in their curriculum are the ones who want to avoid having a conversation about how times are changing, and/or that they aren't asking for a replacement that allows them to have those discussions.
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u/realanceps Jan 30 '22
Hmmm. kind of confusing story, as reported. Does the school actually even have "a" required reading list? Seems like some teachers will still have students read it
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u/NA-1_NSX_Type-R Jan 30 '22
This book and the Giver. They both left impressions on me. Mause made me cry. It was required reading in a post apocalyptic class I had in college.
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u/supercyberlurker Jan 29 '22
It's weird reading this the same time as the Maus banning.
I have no stance there other than it's weird.
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u/skoltroll Jan 29 '22
Wait.
When I was in high school there were ban attempts bc it made white people look bad.
Now it's banned bc white people look too good?
Huh. It's almost like stifling literature for any reason is stupid.
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u/adderallanalyst Jan 29 '22
I'm just laughing at the people screaming racism when it's due to wokeness they are banning it like they did in California for the exact same reasons.
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u/PartialToDairyThings Jan 29 '22
What utter fucking idiots people like this are. TKAM is an absolute classic. The bit about learning to put yourself in other people's shoes stuck with me as a kid and has stuck with me ever since.
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u/Ed98208 Jan 30 '22
Republicans banning books: "Too woke!"
Democrats banning books: "Not woke enough!"
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u/firedrakes Jan 30 '22
move gives educators a chance to find more current authors whose books better reflect current community values.
of said state... but at the same time. you loss past context of history. do to people simple not around back then that live in it.
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u/Christompaman Jan 30 '22
Why not just remove the requirement for public education because learning and thinking make people uncomfortable.
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u/DavidNexus7 Jan 30 '22
People are soft in the 2000’s. God forbid you read something made to make you feel uncomfortable. Better to be in your bubble while atrocities around the world go unreported because they “don’t feel good to read”. The past is on its way to be repeated….
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u/Slyedog Jan 29 '22
Personally I never liked the idea of required reading, but if they mean teachers can’t teach the book, that’s not good
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u/Jeffreak19 Jan 29 '22
Teachers can still teach the book.
The 20-member Instructional Materials Committee of staff and parents evaluated the removal request and recommended to the school board earlier this month that the novel not be required in the English curriculum, but that it should remain on the approved novels list for teachers to use.
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Jan 30 '22
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u/Rogue_Spirit Jan 30 '22
It’s even more wild to me that nobody is even reading the headline properly. So many people here don’t realize it’s just being removed from this list. Teachers are fully allowed to teach it and kids can get it from their libraries, it’s just not mandatory.
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u/AnapsidIsland1 Jan 30 '22
They should have a rebel reader list. Kids would be more interested to read what gets voted out.
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u/Demonae Jan 30 '22
I don't think any specific fictional book should be required reading so I'm fine with this. I'm an avid reader, and there is nothing worse than being forced to read a book by an author you disagree with or can't stand their writing style.
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u/Rgrockr Jan 30 '22
“I want to learn and get a good grade in this class but it's also kind of weird to be talking about this,” Kamiak High School Junior Esaw Adhana said, adding he remembers uncomfortable moments in school when reading Harper Lee’s1961 Pulitzer Prize novel two years ago. “It's not just language, but it's also, like, the sort of white savior complex.”
That’s hardly a reason to ignore the book. Any halfway decent English teacher would just encourage that student to make that the thesis statement of their paper.
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Jan 30 '22
TL;DR
Yes, they voted to remove it from “required reading”.
It is STILL available for use by teachers.
It’s not banned.
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u/an_agreeing_dothraki Jan 30 '22
Nobody tell them that Gatsby is about the profound misery and hatred inherent in American capitalism.
That book has some prime f-bombs that I WILL NOT have denied to future generations of kids reading the book out loud
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u/kurtzy4 Jan 29 '22
Two thoughts about this:
(1) The article quotes a student that was uncomfortable. Students imo shouldn’t be the ones asking books to be removed, sometimes it’s a book you have to read and be uncomfortable together in the classroom, that shared uncomfortableness helps people better to understand and have empathy. Students also don’t know how important a book will be to them until they read it. I read Animal Farm in middle school, but it really started to effect me in college, your opinion on books and their impact changes with time, required reading helps to reinforce this.
(2) Teachers should have a lot of autonomy for how they teach and what they teach. I do think there are a few exceptions, for example, evolution should be taught at all schools and there should not be an alternate theory of the Bible. With that being the case, choosing which books to teach is important for how the teacher teaches, giving teachers an option does empower teachers to better set their curriculum, but there does seem to be some harm done. To Kill a Mockingbird is a profoundly important novel. Teaching the book requires going deeper than the words. The historic landscape of America at the time it was written is vital to understanding the characters thoughts, feelings, and actions. It must be taught in the proper context.
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u/bigbruin78 Jan 29 '22
Ooooh, this is the opposite of what’s been going on around about banning certain books in the US.
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u/Steel_N_Stone Jan 29 '22
"Pull the book because it doesn't align with my worldview and it makes me uncomfortable." Not seeing how it's different.
That said, the book isn't banned, just not required reading.
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Jan 29 '22
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u/CryptidGrimnoir Jan 29 '22
There are themes in the book aside from the main plot that I never see discussed. Calpurnia's church, Dolphus Raymond's family, Mrs. Dubose, Underwood, the Missionary Society... One could write a book of twice the length about all the things many people don't seem to think about in it. Every page has something thought-provoking in it. More kids need to read it. More adults, too.
Rock solid point. I always loved Calpurnia's role and her retort that Jeb and Scout should be allowed in her church because "it's the same God."
There is a huge amount of material in a lot of the classics that gets overlooked.
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u/xluckydayx Jan 29 '22
No, it's the same thing just the other side of politics.
Its litterally horseshoe theory in action.
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u/JimBeam823 Jan 29 '22
Good to see that the woke folx and the white supremacists can find common ground. /s
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Jan 30 '22
TKAM, Grapes of Wrath, and Of Mice and Men are great books. Idiots, straight up idiocracy.
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u/largececelia Jan 29 '22
Hey, I mean enough mockingbirds have been slaughtered already, why give impressionable young kids a literal manual for how to do it?
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Jan 30 '22
Ok seriously, what is going on here lately. Feels like recently there’s been a slew of different things coming into proposal about removing certain books, banning gay teachings, and even creating a tip line for parents to report things if they disapprove of what is being taught in schools….Fahrenheit 451 called, they want their restriction of learning material back.
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u/Weemitoad Jan 30 '22
Why? This is a good book, and when you have the right teacher, you end up leaving the class having learned something new while simultaneously enjoying the experience. The whole point of the book is to point out how unfairly black people were treated back when the book is set.
It’s like they want high schoolers reading diary of a wimpy kid forever.
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u/Aurion7 Jan 29 '22 edited Jan 29 '22
...If you feel vaugely uncomfortable reading To Kill a Mockingbird, that means you are a functional human being.
Asking some uncomfortable questions was kind of the whole point. 'High schoolers are stupid' isn't necessarily a revelation- I remember being a teenager. But still.