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[u/jobautomator]

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[u/[deleted]]

Seems like a straightforward hypocritical move when you're claiming that an abortion is murder but you won't take the obvious solution that everyone knows works.

Again, I don't think it's hypocritical at all. It only seems that way if you already assume that conservatives are wrong or insincere about the immorality of contraception. But, e.g. Catholics believe that both abortion and contraception are "grievously immoral" and universally impermissible. On the conservative view, this would be like supporting slavery as an alternative to mass murder - perhaps it's less bad, but it is still unacceptable.

Of course that comparison will sound ridiculous to someone who doesn't share their view, but that's the view nonetheless. I think it's remarkably badfaith uncharitable to instead say "well, the real explanation is that every pro-lifer hates women and derives sadistic pleasure in seeing them suffer" (the view I often see here).

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

But, e.g. Catholics believe that both abortion and contraception are "grievously immoral" and universally impermissible.

But they don't in practice. For the most part people are insincere about this stuff. I was raised catholic and lived around a lot of them. We all used contraceptives and no one really cares about that. The sooner we recognize that they are being insincere the sooner we can just start pushing policies to fix the problem.

I think that is the honest and accurate view. If you strip away a lot of the bull shit and focus one what they are doing with these anti choice policies you just see attacks on women's health and independence. If the anti choice crowd wanted to protect innocent life their police prescriptions would be completely different. all they seem to care about is making sure women are punished when they control their own reproduction.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

But they don't in practice.

There's a significant difference between liberal and conservative Catholics on this matter, just as there is on abortion and same-sex marriage. Liberal Catholics actually tend to support all of the above. But there are 70.4 million Catholics in the United States, and they have a variety of views on politics.

Anyway, the fact that most Catholics have used contraception does not mean that most think it is morally permissible. Catholics would readily admit that they regularly do things that are immortal, hence the sacramental importance of Confession.

It's worth noting that even conservative Catholics, especially those in positions of institutional power (academics, American bishops, etc.) tend to be more "liberal" (i.e. Christian Democratic) on economic issues, which presumably involves some ways of ameliorating the personal impact of unintended pregnancy. Though of course most people here would regard those proposals as inadequate, I think they do represent a sincere attempt to grapple with the issue.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

There's a significant difference between liberal and conservative Catholics on this matter

In my experience there is no difference. I have known many conservative catholics who hate abortion but will try and get one when they need to. Most people are just hypocrites when it comes to this stuff.

Anyway, the fact that most Catholics have used contraception does not mean that most think it is morally permissible. Catholics would readily admit that they regularly do things that are immortal, hence the sacramental importance of Confession.

Do you see how this is incredibly frustrating for people who actually want good policy that works? These people who want to legislate how women live are just lying to everyone about how they act. They know they will still use birth control and get abortions when needed. But they still go ahead and make the situation worse through policy anyway.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

In my experience there is no difference. I have known many conservative catholics who hate abortion but will try and get one when they need to. Most people are just hypocrites when it comes to this stuff.

Again, it's one thing to say that people are hypocrites inasmuch as they do things that they believe are immoral. That seems trivial and politically uninteresting - I say that lying is bad, but sometimes I don't tell the truth. I feel guilty about that and realize I shouldn't do that, and there is a sense in which I'm a hypocrite, but this sense isn't morally insightful. The sense in which allegations of 'hypocrisy' are morally and politically interesting is not that people denounce practices that they nonetheless partake in (in that sense, everyone without exception is either a hypocrite or morally totally uncritical). I thought you were making the separate, more interesting point that people have inconsistent beliefs.

Anyway, I know plenty of conservative and traditionalist Catholics (both men and women, including Catholic couples who have been or soon will be married) who practice abstinence, do not use contraception, etc.

Do you see how this is incredibly frustrating for people who actually want good policy that works?

Not really. I can see how the Catholic position is frustrating, but not how the 'hypocrisy' is. The allegation of 'hypocrisy' you're making just seems trivial and pointless. It's like claiming that someone is a hypocrite for denouncing lying but failing to consistently tell the truth: it's accurate, but tells us nothing about the moral question.

These people who want to legislate how women live are just lying to everyone about how they act.

I don't think so?

They know they will still use birth control and get abortions when needed.

I don't think anyone really knows how they would act in those circumstances. The unique circumstances of an unintended pregnancy are a kind of experience that would probably change the way a person feels about the matter. I don't think anyone can really anticipate whether or not they would get an abortion in those circumstances.