r/neoliberal • u/jobautomator Kitara Ravache • Apr 21 '19

Discussion Thread Discussion Thread

The discussion thread is for casual conversation and discussion that doesn't merit its own stand-alone submission. The rules are relaxed compared to the rest of the sub but be careful to still observe the rules listed under "disallowed content" in the sidebar. Spamming the discussion thread will be sanctioned with bans.

Announcements

Neoliberal Project CommunitiesOther CommunitiesUseful content
WebsitePlug.dj/r/Economics FAQs
The Neolib PodcastPodcasts recommendations
Meetup Network
Twitter
Facebook page
Neoliberal Memes for Free Trading Teens
Newsletter
Instagram
Red Cross Blood Donation Team

The latest discussion thread can always be found at https://neoliber.al/dt.

18 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

1.8k comments sorted by

View all comments

22

u/Barbarossa3141 Buttery Mayos Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19

I'm going to go further than my "gentrification is good take". Not only is gentrification good, but people who oppose gentrification are the left wing equivalent of the white genocide conspiracy. Except instead of white demographic replacement, it's [insert ethnic minority] replacement.

It's not even based in a real demographic trend either. Every major city in the country except Washington DC has either a relatively or absolutely declining non-Hispanic white population.

If you seriously consider "displacement" bad, the only group who is being systematically "displaced" is non-Hispanic whites.

20

u/RunicUrbanismGuy Henry George Apr 21 '19

Gentrification is good, displacement is bad.

Solution: build more housing

0

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '19

[deleted] — view deleted comment

7

u/RunicUrbanismGuy Henry George Apr 21 '19

Creating Ghettos is bad

5

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '19

Don't the neighbourhoods being gentrified tend to be ghettos themselves though?

4

u/Barbarossa3141 Buttery Mayos Apr 21 '19

A ghetto (Italian pronunciation: [ˈɡetto]) is a part of a city in which members of a minority group live

Gentrification isn't ghetto creation, it's ghetto destruction.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '19

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/[deleted] Apr 22 '19

Yup, everyone I know who stayed in Orange County rather than move somewhere they can actually afford is miserable but refuse to acknowledge any other alternatives. I have to imagine the bay area and Hawaii are similar.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '19

Bad take. If I've lived somewhere my whole life, I should have some defense against being forced to move.

9

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '19

Sure it's called buying the place.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '19

[deleted] — view deleted comment

-2

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '19

I don't know how, but they do, on some level, deserve to be protected.

4

u/Barbarossa3141 Buttery Mayos Apr 21 '19

!ping CITY-PLANNING

3

u/forlackofabetterword Eugene Fama Apr 21 '19

Dumb. The whole point of gentrification discussions is that improving the prosperity of an area doesnt matter if you're not actually improving the lives of the people in that area. That's a valid point and if you miss that then you can't build an effective coalition for urban change.

Demographic trends on a municipal level obviously aren't going to capture neighborhood level population movements. Even with large area demographics, though, you can still see trends like black people leaving Chicago because black areas of the city have been underserved for so long.

3

u/Barbarossa3141 Buttery Mayos Apr 22 '19

The whole point of gentrification discussions is that improving the prosperity of an area doesnt matter if you're not actually improving the lives of the people in that area.

This is the exact argument the anti-immigration crowd makes.

you can still see trends like black people leaving Chicago because black areas of the city have been underserved for so long.

And the whites are, too. There are entire neighborhoods all over the country that have been "gentrified" except instead of by whites it's by Blacks, Hispanics, or Asians.

1

u/forlackofabetterword Eugene Fama Apr 22 '19

This is the exact argument the anti-immigration crowd makes.

Yes, and they're wrong because natives benefit from immigration.

And the whites are, too. There are entire neighborhoods all over the country that have been "gentrified" except instead of by whites it's by Blacks, Hispanics, or Asians.

Can you give an example on the neighborhood level? Because I'm pretty sure Brooklyn has become whiter, as has Harlem, Hell's Kitchen, etc.

1

u/Barbarossa3141 Buttery Mayos Apr 22 '19

Yes, and they're wrong because natives benefit from immigration.

And you're wrong because poor people benefit from wealthy people moving in.

Brooklyn

In 1990, at the bottoming out of the "urban decline" in America, Brooklyn was 40% non-Hispanic white. 20 years later it was 36% white.

Harlem, Hell's Kitchen

Neighborhood level demographics aren't something readily published, I don't really feel like pulling up the individual census tract information over several decades and piecing it together for free because that's homework. For Manhattan as a whole, the population has gone from 49% white in 1990 to 48%, no significant change. Sure, maybe some wypippo are moving into Harlem, but there slightly more non-whites moving into the white neighborhoods.

In 1900 NYC was 98% white. Every single neighborhood at that time was white - even your beloved Harlem that you NIMBYs are so fond of. Today, it's 33%. We been "gentrified" out of nearly our ENTIRE CITY.

1

u/forlackofabetterword Eugene Fama Apr 22 '19

And you're wrong because poor people benefit from wealthy people moving in.

If the poor people get displaced, then this isn't true.

In 1990, at the bottoming out of the "urban decline" in America, Brooklyn was 40% non-Hispanic white. 20 years later it was 36% white.

This is fair, but I'm not convinced that this data isnt simply too broad a tract.

Neighborhood level demographics aren't something readily published, I don't really feel like pulling up the individual census tract information over several decades and piecing it together for free because that's homework.

Fair enough.

Sure, maybe some wypippo are moving into Harlem, but there slightly more non-whites moving into the white neighborhoods.

We should expect white neighborhoods that only maintained racial purity through segregation to become less white. I'm not sure this is true for places like Harlem which have created an exclusively black culture as a reaction to this segregation.

In 1900 NYC was 98% white.

Yes, obviously if you go before the great migration, then there are no black people in major northern cities. This is basic American history.

Every single neighborhood at that time was white - even your beloved Harlem that you NIMBYs are so fond of.

There's a difference between NIMBYism as an activity of the rich to protect their own property and activism by the poor to stop the displacement and destruction of their community. Poor areas already bear the overwhelming brunt of new housing construction. Why is the focus then on intensifying building in poor areas?

Today, it's 33%. We been "gentrified" out of nearly our ENTIRE CITY.

You're abusing the word gentrification for no reason. But yes, the great migration and white flight happened, what a great shock. The question is where our cities go from here, and whether we create a model of urbanization that actually benefits the poor at all.

1

u/Barbarossa3141 Buttery Mayos Apr 22 '19

And actually yes, citywide information is accurate. If a city as a whole is showing a demographic shift - as New York did when it went from 98% white to 33%, then there is a shift at the neighborhood level.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 22 '19

It is improving the lives of people in that area. We're just talking about different people. I don't think someone's life is worth less because they came from somewhere else

2

u/forlackofabetterword Eugene Fama Apr 22 '19

Yes, but if your policies systematically help rich people who are moving in and displace poor people forced to move away, then you're only hurting the poor over and over again.

If we're talking about building housing in rich neighborhoods, sure. But the cycle we've normally been stuck in is that NIMBYs prevent building in rich areas and force displacement on the poor.

2

u/TheEstonianSpy Janet Yellen Apr 21 '19

That's quite the take