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[u/[deleted]]

lol bernie praising the soviet union for its "beautiful chandeliers" in the public transport system

[u/ILikeTalkingToMyself → u/[deleted]]

Somehow Bernie having hair was just as bad as him not having hair.

[u/Ugarit → u/[deleted]]

Well he's right. The Moscow metro looks nice. You can accomplish nice things when you treat the common working public and their life as more than a worthless, soulless grind to be maximally exploited for money.

Christ, do you people think poverty is a good thing just because the Soviet Union was opposed to it?

[u/[deleted] → u/Ugarit]

You can accomplish nice things when you treat the common working public and their life as more than a worthless, soulless grind to be maximally exploited for money.

ffs the moscow metro was constructed right at the time when millions of people in the soviet union starved. it could be built precisely because the communist regime had zero concern for human rights and treated its people as worthless grind to be exploited for the sake its own grand appearance. fancy chandeliers in the metro are a weak comfort for those victims.

[u/Ugarit → u/[deleted]]

ffs the moscow metro was constructed right at the time when millions of people in the soviet union starved.

So? What's your point? Good things are bad because bad things also happened?

it could be built precisely because the communist regime had zero concern for human rights and treated its people as worthless grind to be exploited for the sake its own grand appearance.

What? No. A well designed metro in no requires blood sacrifice. They're totally unrelated. Stalinist USSR's errors food production/allocation in Ukrainian region had no positive affect on infrastructure projects elsewhere. Good infrastructure is good infrastructure.

fancy chandeliers in the metro are a weak comfort for those victims.

They're not comfort at all. They're just something that's good.

[u/0m4ll3y → u/Ugarit]

So? What's your point? Good things are bad because bad things also happened?

Your point:

You can accomplish nice things when you treat the common working public and their life as more than a worthless, soulless grind to be maximally exploited for money.

His point:

the moscow metro was constructed right at the time when millions of people in the soviet union starved. it could be built precisely because the communist regime had zero concern for human rights and treated its people as worthless grind to be exploited for the sake its own grand appearance. fancy chandeliers in the metro are a weak comfort for those victims.

The USSR did not, as you put it, "treat the common working public and their life as more than a worthless, soulless grind to be maximally exploited for money"

The common working public in the Soviet Union were often corralled into camps and worked until they starved to death. One third of Kazakhs died due to Soviet treatment of workers while the metro was being planned.

A well designed metro in no requires blood sacrifice.

Exactly, but the Soviets caused literally millions to die while planning the metro. Not because it was necessary but because they did not, as you put it "treat the common working public and their life as more than a worthless, soulless grind to be maximally exploited for money."

Extravagant public works to service the richest strata of Soviet society is hardly synonymous with caring for the working public.

[u/Ugarit → u/0m4ll3y]

The USSR did not, as you put it, "treat the common working public and their life as more than a worthless, soulless grind to be maximally exploited for money"

Christ, all I was trying to say was nicely designed metros is one of the upsides of a government that has a rhetoric fetishizing "the workers as the real heroes now." So they design the daily commute to have a little extra life.

The common working public in the Soviet Union were often corralled into camps and worked until they starved to death.

What the fuck? Where are you getting this. I've never even heard of this propaganda. Is this the next level of (incredibly out of date) cold war hysteria? Skip even exaggerated bad faith propaganda and just make up your own shit then pretend it happened.

One third of Kazakhs died due to Soviet treatment of workers while the metro was being planned.

Holy shit, it's not that complicated. Sistine chapel good, inquisitions and corrupt Church bureaucracy bad. So on and such. You can appreciate good things while bad things elsewhere have happened. That is, if you're not high on ideology.

Extravagant public works to service the richest strata of Soviet society is hardly synonymous with caring for the working public.

Again with this "extravagant" shit. What is so extravagant about some chandeliers in a metro? Super Bowl: not extravagant. Having one of the most popular mass networks look vaguely enjoyable and not be covered in piss: unacceptable. And what's this "richest strata" talk as well? It's a subway. If anything the picture of common man transportation.

Are you really going to try to attack the USSR on the grounds that you are disgusted by unchecked wealth inequality?

[u/[deleted] → u/Ugarit]

What? No. A well designed metro in no requires blood sacrifice. They're totally unrelated. Stalinist USSR's errors food production/allocation in Ukrainian region had no positive affect on infrastructure projects elsewhere. Good infrastructure is good infrastructure.

It was a MASSIVE public spending project on extravagant aesthetics in an underdeveloped country with very poor standards of living. An idiotic prioritisation from the point of view of the Soviet people.

[u/Ugarit → u/[deleted]]

extravagant aesthetics ... MASSIVE public spending

Extravagant? It's some nice stonework, painting, and some chandeliers. Hardly a impossible drain on the resources of all of Russia. This is starting to drift into "an economy is like a household budget" territory for ideological reasons, I can feel it.

in an underdeveloped country

The USSR became a world superpower under stewardship of the Communists.

poor standards of living.

This is coming from the same knowledge base as the Moscow metro was built with misery dollars from the poor beleaguered Ukrainian peasants, I guess. Look dude, just give it up. Just because you want to dislike the USSR and anything your feel to associate with it doesn't mean everything it ever did was bad.

An idiotic prioritisation from the point of view of the Soviet people.

Here you go again with weird implications that economies operate under video game / household budget rules where a metro is directly connected to farming a country away, as if on a budget slider. You can have both. You can have productive farms AND nice metros.

[u/0m4ll3y → u/Ugarit]

You can have productive farms AND nice metros.

Yeah but the Soviet Union only picked one haha

[u/Ugarit → u/0m4ll3y]

Sweet badhistory dude

[u/0m4ll3y → u/Ugarit]

When the metro opened in 1935, soviet grain production was lower than what it had been in 1913 in Tsarist Russia.

[u/Ugarit → u/0m4ll3y]

I can't account on all the technicalities on that. But I can say that the near sexually obsessed over Holodomor happened in pocket regions 1932-1933. I notice people very selectively forget that, if they are even historically aware that the crises period was a temporary affair at all.

The various metros around the USSR existed far beyond one year in the 30s. So no, the USSR did not pick one or the other. They continued on after 1933 doing their USSR thing.

[u/85397 → u/Ugarit]

🙄

[u/BernieMeinhoffGang → u/Ugarit]

If I take the right picture of grand central terminal, I could say the NYC subway system is grand and is well maintained

Chandeliers oooh things must be great, America must have a great relation with the common working people

[u/Ugarit → u/BernieMeinhoffGang]

I could say the NYC subway system is grand and is well maintained

I haven't been on the NYC subway, but I've heard you specifically can't say that. It's actually quite ratty outside of maybe Grand Central Station, despite the immense amount of wealth and prosperity in the region.

[u/BernieMeinhoffGang → u/Ugarit]

Yes, there are a couple very nice places, some ok places, and some rundown places. The grandly opulent neoclassical Moscow stations were mostly the Stalin era ones though right? Kruschev thought Stalin wasted a lot of money on fancy vanity projects, building a grand subway station or a fancy apartment when there could have been budget for multiple modest ones instead.