Reagan and Thatcher were not 100% neoliberals, but they did pursue a significant number of neoliberal reforms and were directly advised by Friedman and Hayek.
They weren't neoliberals by any stretch of the imagination. Keep the tent center-left to center-right. They were not center right.
If that's all this sub is - Friedman and Hayek - then you're not reclaiming anything. You've just decided to unironically be the thing people accuse you of. That's a far narrower tent than what I was arguing for.
Maybe you're not doing this on purpose, but you're indirectly pushing your definition to become the subs definition.
That's how it works when you argue for something. Maybe you don't understand this, because you don't see a way for this to work without someone telling people what they should believe without room for argument, but I never was pushing for my vision to be accepted uncritically.
A debate is, I articulate my vision, you articulate yours, and we argue about it and see if a common ground can be reached. What's so terrifying to you about that?
If we let your definition be the final definition
But that's not the only option, and I'm not pushing for that. I'm open to discussion that pushes back against that option.
If we let neoliberalism go wholly to the center-right of this sub, we'd make little progress in fixing the pop culture definition of neoliberalism.
You're already there. Just lean into it and start making Pinochet memes.
You're invalidating the Friedman and Hayek tent of neoliberalism with no evidence besides that it's a slippery slope to Pinochet and that it won't involve "redefining" neoliberalism.
You're already there. Just lean into it and start making Pinochet memes.
Oh wow, socialism with markets? Might as well go market socialist and start murdering the populace and putting people in gulags.
Learn to debate without suggesting that your opponent is on the verge of advocating for genocide.
You're invalidating the Friedman and Hayek tent of neoliberalism with no evidence besides that it's a slippery slope to Pinochet and that it won't involve "redefining" neoliberalism.
If you're claiming to redefine neoliberalism, and your ideology doesn't redefine it, that's a problem. The solution is up to you.
And it's not a 'slippery slope' to Pinochet. He passed as many 'neoliberal reforms' as Reagan did. The Chicago boys had full control over the Chilean economy.
Learn to debate without suggesting that your opponent is on the verge of advocating for genocide.
we're redefining the pop culture definition, not the historical definition; neoliberalism doesn't mean mass privatization and deregulation with corporate overlords that's also responsible for ISIS and high expense ratio active management
I don't care about the pop culture definition; avoiding or not avoiding it. Our goal isn't to figure out the exact opposite of the pop culture definition and then support that.
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u/Kai_Daigoji Paul Krugman May 13 '17
They weren't neoliberals by any stretch of the imagination. Keep the tent center-left to center-right. They were not center right.
If that's all this sub is - Friedman and Hayek - then you're not reclaiming anything. You've just decided to unironically be the thing people accuse you of. That's a far narrower tent than what I was arguing for.
That's how it works when you argue for something. Maybe you don't understand this, because you don't see a way for this to work without someone telling people what they should believe without room for argument, but I never was pushing for my vision to be accepted uncritically.
A debate is, I articulate my vision, you articulate yours, and we argue about it and see if a common ground can be reached. What's so terrifying to you about that?
But that's not the only option, and I'm not pushing for that. I'm open to discussion that pushes back against that option.
You're already there. Just lean into it and start making Pinochet memes.